Looking for some suggestions on how I might improve up wind sailing performance in strong winds on my CD 30 Cutter. Last weekend we went out sailing here in the San Francisco Bay. Big wind day. Saturday was gale force warnings. Sunday things had settled down. On Sunday my wind speed indicator read consistant 20-25 knot winds, gusting above that. I had a double reefed full batten main (pretty deep reefs) and a stays'l up. No jib. Ebb tide - pretty choppy. Beam to broad reach seemed pretty good. Any time I tried to point up wind things got pretty sluggish - maybe....maybe making 3 knots. Didn't feel like I had enough control. I really felt like I needed more drive to punch through the chop. I had everything sheeted in tight and travelers dropped to leeward, trying to flatten everything out - was that a mistake? Think I could have introduced more twist? Perhaps let out some of the Yankee? It was pretty windy - didn't want to make any mistakes with too much canvas up. I've experienced this difficulty beating up wind in strong conditions before and sure would like to figure it out. Any thoughts? What have the rest of you discovered?
Pat
CD30
patturner@earthlink.net
Sail Trim & Strong Winds
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Tom Young
Re: Sail Trim & Strong Winds
One thing you might try, with a double reefed main, use a jib(or furl out) of about 120% or so. It's hard to drive a boat upwind in a chop unless you can get enough power out of your sails, especially your headsails.
The other thing you can learn from good racers, is make the boat go fast first(which usually means falling off alittle to get the way you need to steer through waves) and then set your course. You may be alittle off your mark but your boat will perform better and handle easier and probably get to your windward mark faster. Don't pay much attention to the angles some people talk about pointing, these angles are extreme and of little value.
If your not sure about your sail trim, use telltales and experiment until you get them all breaking evenly. You don't mention whether your boat is overpowered in these conditions or not. A great book still on trim is Sailpower by Wallace or Ross maybe.
You have a great boat there, just takes a little doing and you will be enjoying a little upwind work(I say a little, as that is enough)
fish@mint.net
The other thing you can learn from good racers, is make the boat go fast first(which usually means falling off alittle to get the way you need to steer through waves) and then set your course. You may be alittle off your mark but your boat will perform better and handle easier and probably get to your windward mark faster. Don't pay much attention to the angles some people talk about pointing, these angles are extreme and of little value.
If your not sure about your sail trim, use telltales and experiment until you get them all breaking evenly. You don't mention whether your boat is overpowered in these conditions or not. A great book still on trim is Sailpower by Wallace or Ross maybe.
You have a great boat there, just takes a little doing and you will be enjoying a little upwind work(I say a little, as that is enough)
fish@mint.net
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M. R. Bober
Re: "Sail Power"
Both are correct. The author of "Sail Power" is Wallace Ross. The book is about thirty years old, and probably the best.
M
thebobers@erols.com
M
thebobers@erols.com
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Greg Kozlowski
Re: Sail Trim & Strong Winds
Hi Pat,Patrick Turner wrote: Looking for some suggestions on how I might improve up wind sailing performance in strong winds on my CD 30 Cutter. Last weekend we went out sailing here in the San Francisco Bay. Big wind day. Saturday was gale force warnings. Sunday things had settled down. On Sunday my wind speed indicator read consistant 20-25 knot winds, gusting above that. I had a double reefed full batten main (pretty deep reefs) and a stays'l up. No jib. Ebb tide - pretty choppy. Beam to broad reach seemed pretty good. Any time I tried to point up wind things got pretty sluggish - maybe....maybe making 3 knots. Didn't feel like I had enough control. I really felt like I needed more drive to punch through the chop. I had everything sheeted in tight and travelers dropped to leeward, trying to flatten everything out - was that a mistake? Think I could have introduced more twist? Perhaps let out some of the Yankee? It was pretty windy - didn't want to make any mistakes with too much canvas up. I've experienced this difficulty beating up wind in strong conditions before and sure would like to figure it out. Any thoughts? What have the rest of you discovered?
Pat
CD30
I think that if the chop was heavy, 3 knots ain't too bad for the displacement of a CD30 and the canvas you had - there just isn't the weight to punch through. On the other hand, if you want to make her go faster, and if the rail wasn't going down with the double reef, I think you would have been OK with just one reef and staysail. When I used to sail my former Alberg 30 (about the same displacement but a little less beam)in the conditions you describe,I wouldn't tuck in the second reef until she was fairly steady in the
high 20s or low 30s and I used what they call a "blade" jib which
is about 100%, right up to the mast. If the gusts got heavy, I'd
spill the main a bit. Made for some pretty exciting sailing, but she
went like a freight train. Don't be shy about getting the rail down, just keep the companionway hatch closed, strap everybody in, and let her rip - these boats like, and can take plenty of canvas.
Greg Kozlowski
Sherpa CD36
koz@seijo.ac.jp
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Patrick Turner
Re: Sail Trim & Strong Winds
I've heard of the book and will go to my local "Armchair Sailor" to pick it up. Also thought about increasing headsail area to give a little more drive. The boat felt pretty well balanaced with the double reef in the main and stays'l - very little weather helm. Only felt like rounding up if I got up on the top of a swell with a bigger puff. Think if I had more drive I could have sustained momentum right over the top and kept her a little better balnced. I'll give it a try on the next big wind. My wind speed indicator is deck level (not as accurate) and I've been told it was more like 25-30 on the Bay that day. Boats were tearing up sails all over the place - just didn't want to press my luck. Any other thoughts out there?
Pat
patturner@earthlink.net
Pat
patturner@earthlink.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Sail Trim & Strong Winds
Pat,
I've sailed Hanalei (CD-30) with full yankee and stays'l, one reef in main, in twenty five knot winds all the time. The one thing I noted on your first post was that you had the traveler to lew'rd. Is that correct? I thought that if you wanted to flatten her out, you would bring the traveler at least to midships, and maybe more. Yes, that will increase you heel, but, again, she will take one reef in the main, full yankee and stays'l. Isn't she a grand thing to see with all her flags aflyin'!! Oh, if you are worried about too much heal, man the helm with one foot over the leward cockpit coaming. If your foot gets wet, you've too much heel!!!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
I've sailed Hanalei (CD-30) with full yankee and stays'l, one reef in main, in twenty five knot winds all the time. The one thing I noted on your first post was that you had the traveler to lew'rd. Is that correct? I thought that if you wanted to flatten her out, you would bring the traveler at least to midships, and maybe more. Yes, that will increase you heel, but, again, she will take one reef in the main, full yankee and stays'l. Isn't she a grand thing to see with all her flags aflyin'!! Oh, if you are worried about too much heal, man the helm with one foot over the leward cockpit coaming. If your foot gets wet, you've too much heel!!!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Rich
Re: Sail Trim & Strong Winds
Depower the main and use your head sails to take you up wind. At the advice of my sail maker I purchased a 125% jib, which I reef last. I used to reef the yankee first on my CD30 just because it was convenient, but the boat would stall in the steep chop and 20+ wind typical of a Buzzard's Bay afternoon. She sails much better as a sloop, on or off the wind. And by all means, slide your traveler to lew'd to reduce heel and keep her moving.Patrick Turner wrote: Looking for some suggestions on how I might improve up wind sailing performance in strong winds on my CD 30 Cutter. Last weekend we went out sailing here in the San Francisco Bay. Big wind day. Saturday was gale force warnings. Sunday things had settled down. On Sunday my wind speed indicator read consistant 20-25 knot winds, gusting above that. I had a double reefed full batten main (pretty deep reefs) and a stays'l up. No jib. Ebb tide - pretty choppy. Beam to broad reach seemed pretty good. Any time I tried to point up wind things got pretty sluggish - maybe....maybe making 3 knots. Didn't feel like I had enough control. I really felt like I needed more drive to punch through the chop. I had everything sheeted in tight and travelers dropped to leeward, trying to flatten everything out - was that a mistake? Think I could have introduced more twist? Perhaps let out some of the Yankee? It was pretty windy - didn't want to make any mistakes with too much canvas up. I've experienced this difficulty beating up wind in strong conditions before and sure would like to figure it out. Any thoughts? What have the rest of you discovered?
Pat
CD30
rich@mathworks.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Sail Trim & Strong Winds
Pat,
In 20-30 kts. we dbl. reef and then use the staysail and a deeply reefed genoa (or yankee on it's own wire luff, and raised on the spinnaker block and halyard. Your heeling angle will increase to 15-20 deg., but the boat speed (which is what you really need to punch into the wind) will increase up to 5.5kts. or so. When it gets wilder, we douse the staysail and go with the yankee and dbl.reefed main, then finally storm jib and triple reefed main (50 kts...which we see a few times every year).
Someone suggested that reefing the genoa/jib first was the way to go. But what happens then is that the full main is sitting up there heeling the boat over, slowing you down because of the spilled air out of the sails. We found that reefing the main early (like at 15-18 kts) will set her back up and the speed increases, with only 10-30 deg. of weather helm (as measured by the center point of the wheel being 10-30 deg. off center). If the wind increases past that reef point, then start reducing the genoa some, and trim for near neutral helm. We have achieved up to 8 kts. in 20-25 kts doing this..beating at 45-50 deg. to the wind (minimal wave size due to proximity to islands that cut the waves down a bit).
Cheers!
Larry Demers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~~
demers@sgi.com
In 20-30 kts. we dbl. reef and then use the staysail and a deeply reefed genoa (or yankee on it's own wire luff, and raised on the spinnaker block and halyard. Your heeling angle will increase to 15-20 deg., but the boat speed (which is what you really need to punch into the wind) will increase up to 5.5kts. or so. When it gets wilder, we douse the staysail and go with the yankee and dbl.reefed main, then finally storm jib and triple reefed main (50 kts...which we see a few times every year).
Someone suggested that reefing the genoa/jib first was the way to go. But what happens then is that the full main is sitting up there heeling the boat over, slowing you down because of the spilled air out of the sails. We found that reefing the main early (like at 15-18 kts) will set her back up and the speed increases, with only 10-30 deg. of weather helm (as measured by the center point of the wheel being 10-30 deg. off center). If the wind increases past that reef point, then start reducing the genoa some, and trim for near neutral helm. We have achieved up to 8 kts. in 20-25 kts doing this..beating at 45-50 deg. to the wind (minimal wave size due to proximity to islands that cut the waves down a bit).
Cheers!
Larry Demers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~~
Patrick Turner wrote: I've heard of the book and will go to my local "Armchair Sailor" to pick it up. Also thought about increasing headsail area to give a little more drive. The boat felt pretty well balanaced with the double reef in the main and stays'l - very little weather helm. Only felt like rounding up if I got up on the top of a swell with a bigger puff. Think if I had more drive I could have sustained momentum right over the top and kept her a little better balnced. I'll give it a try on the next big wind. My wind speed indicator is deck level (not as accurate) and I've been told it was more like 25-30 on the Bay that day. Boats were tearing up sails all over the place - just didn't want to press my luck. Any other thoughts out there?
Pat
demers@sgi.com