criusing boats how big should the be

[winthrop fisher]

Hi ever one...

this subject comes up allot.

what boats can take it.

most says go larger, why ?

not long ago this came up and its all was the same "go larger, you will be safer, why"

don't miss understand me,

i am not trying to start any thing at all.

just making a point, all these boat are under 22 feet long and have gone far distance just like any of the larger models.

father day 5'4" long across the english channel.

april fool 6' long went across atlantic.

yankee girl 10' long went across the u.s. to england and all so san fran to australia.

egg 12' went around the world.

tinkerbelle 13'6" long east coast to england.

w.w.potter 14' long went to england to norway and u.s. to england many times over.
they have more boats going all over the world, allot more then you think, look into it, be my guest. (wwp)

dark secert 14' long went across the atlantic.

wayfarer 16' sailed three different oceans before he was 40.

fred rebell 18' australia to the u.s.

shrimpy 18' went around the world on that boat, he was a friend of mine.

l. brown with a potter 15 and 19 sailed all over the u.s. for over the last 20 to 30 years all over the u.s.
he has four or five books out, and he sailed all of it before he wrote the books.

half safe was a jeep made in to a boat it went across the atlantic ocean and drove around on land as well.
that one is strange. but i had to add it.

and i have been on three coast on the typhoon 18'6".
and allot more.

sopranino 19' left england to new york the long way around.

yarns 19' sailed to south america.

d. blabden 19' was in a race across the atlantic and made it.

kodoku 19' sailed from japan to the u.s.

dory 19' open boat went from calif to new hebrides.

darling voyage 19' u.s. to france.

escape to the sea 19' went from the u.s. to australia.

stanley smith 20' went around trip u.s. to england and back.

trekka around the world 20'.

1700 open boat 21' in the india ocean.

marlin bree 22' sailed the great lakes.

cd22 sailed the atlantic ocean a year ago.

cd22 is sailing around the world, he has not made it yet.
different person from a above.

there are allot more, but as you can see their are allot more small boats out that are doing it.

if you are prepared right and all was do your home work and get all of practices sailing that boat, you can do it.

but they all have one thing in mind, i will all was make it.

some don't make it, but that does not matter if you are on a smaller boat or larger, things happen.

because there are lot of lager boats go down as well, those are the ones you read about.

so please be carefully sailing out there and have a good time doing it, right...

winthrop

[Neil Gordon]

Thanks, Winthrop. I suppose what differentiates the small boats that made it from the big boats that didn't is in part due to the skipper/crew being prepared and acting in a seamanlike manner.

For a long list... http://www.famoussmallboats.com/ There are some notable voyages, but my favorite is Shackleton and his 800 mile sail through the southern ocean in a 22 foot converted lifeboat.

Small boats are safer in some ways... the loads are lots less and so they are easier to handle, especially short handed. Think trying to wrestle a flogging genoa.

[Guest]

I suppose it depends on how you want to define "cruising," and whether that definition more closely relates to comfort and safety than to survival.

We've read a lot on this list about heavying up small boats to take the punishment of open sea. Once that's accomplished, what you've basically got, it seems to me, is a "chopped" big boat, easier for a solo sailor, never mind the discomfort of wedging oneself and one's provisions into the smaller space.

Cruising for me is about comfort and convenience--kind of like car camping as compared to backpacking.

The legions of stories about the folks who dinghy sail around the world make for great reading, but seldom have I wished I were along for the actual ride!

[Neil Gordon]

I suppose it depends on how you want to define "cruising," and whether that definition more closely relates to comfort and safety than to survival.

Most of the discussion that leads up to this is about making small boats seaworthy. I'd put safety and survival in one column, comfort in another.

[sally forth]

winthorp, i agree with you .. i all ways say there are people who can sail and people who ca'nt.

and those that CAN just sail

and those that CANT just write books about it.

i respect you b'cause you don't go around big-mouthing yourself to others and writin books about your wonderful exprience. you do'nt try make youreself look better than others just because you did over 100,000 miles offshore in a little ty.

you other guys should try to be more like winthop and then there woul'nt be so much fighting on this board

if winthorp can do all those good things in a ty it proves you dont need a bigger boat to go cruising and its not right to say small boats are less seaworthy than big boats because wintrop hasproved it time and time again while most poeople just sit at home reading books.

and he has give ytou his free wisdom for what to do to your boat to make it seawrthy and he didnt make you pay for a book

he is my hero

[Neil Gordon]

... i all ways say there are people who can sail and people who ca'nt.

and those that CAN just sail

and those that CANT just write books about it.

There are people with more experience and those with less. There are some with less who are happy day sailing small boats on small ponds. Etc.

Some that "can" just sail. Others that "can" both sail and write books about it. It's one of the ways that those with less experience learn from those with more. For example:

John Rousmaniere, author of The Annapolis Book of Seamanship, has covered more than 30,000 miles of blue water and has written fifteen books about the sea and sailing. (He didn't just write about the Fastnet race and storm, he experienced it first hand.)

[Dick Barthel]

Sally,

There is actually a minimum of "fighting" on this board considering how much activity takes place. We do sometimes get carried away on this board (especially in the dead of winter) but I think in the end people who like Cape Dorys tend to be pretty nice people.

Winthrop is modest and understated so not everyone knows about his unbelievable accomplishments. Thanks for sharing your opinion. Maybe you can share some more about Winthrop.

Dick

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

An endless discussion no doubt.
Is small big enough?

Tom Colvin writes that for cruising 10,000 lbs per person is good. For live aboard-long distance cruising 20,000 lbs per person is good.

I have often thought about this as a challenge.

The "lightest" (all up displacement) boat capable of an unassisted non-stop solo circumnavigation. Seems likely that it would be around 12-15 k lbs and therefore about 33-35 feet long.

Think of the parameters. A boat that size would probably do good to average 100 nautical miles per day. That means about 350-400 days for a circumnavigation. So how do you have a boat strong enough to handle the conditions and light enough to carry everything needed for the trip?

As for small vs medium vs large, I suspect that is a question of finances for most people, contemplating long distance cruising.

Many small boat sailors do it for the challenge. I suspect the rest do it cause it is what they can afford, more than for any other reason.

For me a CD28 is just big enough to carry me and my stuff and still small enough for me to handle...and afford(I hope).

Take care,
Fred B.

[Carter Brey]

winthorp, i agree with you .. i all ways say there are people who can sail and people who ca'nt.

and those that CAN just sail

and those that CANT just write books about it.
.... .... ....
and he has give ytou his free wisdom for what to do to your boat to make it seawrthy and he didnt make you pay for a book

This burlesque of the writing style of one of our beloved frequent posters is... how shall I put it?... a little too acute. Everyone look beneath their desks to insure that both legs are still attached. And do tread carefully, "Sally". You might want to keep an eye on your depthsounder. Hidden reefs, you know.

CB

[Oswego John]

Hi all,

Yes, I have to agree with what CB says. The way I see it, every one who posts on this board has a distinctive writing style. Some are curt while being courteous, others are long winded ,like I was told that I am. Some posters are dead serious while others try to use a little levity to defuse the storm clouds building on the horizon.

This board is composed of many types of contributors of all walks in life, of varied professions, ages, sailing experiences and of differing perspectives on any given subject. No matter what you think of their ideas, accept their views as being their personal outlook on whatever subject is being discussed. No more, no less.

Perfect spelling isn't a requirement to post on this board, any more than eloquent idiomatic expression is. This board could be compared to a beautiful mosaic that is composed of many varied colors, shades and hues. It is the contrast of the other multi colored hues expressioning ingredients that create the oveonly one special color or trait.

Perhaps it would bring a little harmony among us if when you see a persons name indentifying a post that you don't care to enjoy, just skip over it, move on to the next sequential post.

Peace and love for all,
O J
President
Central NY Chapter
Yo-Yo Ma Fan Club

[Neil Gordon]

... eloquent idiomatic expression ...

Okay, so that's not a requirement. How about two out of three?

(By the way, are you a tiller guy or a wheel guy?)

[slaume]

I think all of this talk about taking very small boats on long voyages has little point. Of course you COULD sail a Typoon on a very long journey if you had to or wanted to for whatever your reason may be. Weather you would be truly comfortable is a whole other question. When I was very young, I spent most of my days sailing a Sunfish and if I had had a Typhoon at the time I might have become a world voyager. I had time and comfort ( or lack there of) would have been of little concern. I also used to walk bare footed on very hot tar, sleep on the floor, go to bed salty and sandy, not be bothered too much by the heat, swim till hypothermic on a regular basis and just in general not be bothered too much with what I would now consider basic comforts. I also had very simple explanations for any temporary aches and and pains I might be experiencing that usually involved some sort of injury from doing something foolish. I don't think it is so much that I have gotten softer in the passing of years but that I have gained experience. Note that I am making no claim to getting smarter. After sailing the Typhoon for a couple of years I too shared all those thoughts of sailing off into the sunrise (East coast). After a few over night trips I am keeping the TY for my son who will soon be old enough to sail her on his own and may have the desire to take her on a coastal cruise. We now sail a CD-30 and have not had a chance to do an extended cruise with her yet. After sailing her for day and weekend trips there is NO WAY I would ever consider going back to a Typhoon for even short over night trips. The CD-30 is a wonderful boat! If I was going on an extended cruise and money was not a major consideration I would certainly be looking at a CD-36 or something in that range. We all just do the best we can. There are lots of things I can do better than a lot of other people. There are far more things other people can do better than I do. If I had more money to spare I might be doing things a bit differently. I know I could walk naked in a snow storm and survive, if I had to or wanted to. It is much more comfortable to be dressed for the weather and crosscountry ski through the forest and truly enjoy it. It is also really nice to sit by the fire in a nice warm house and read a well written book on sailing, so I am very thankful that there are those who can write much better than most of us, Steve.

[Warren Kaplan]

winthorp, i agree with you .. i all ways say there are people who can sail and people who ca'nt.

Ah....that reminds me of what one of the all time great violinists, Nathan Milstein said, when asked about a piece of music that was considered "difficult". He said:

To me there is no such thing as difficult music. Either I can play it, or I can't.

Peoples' opinions about a very large subject like sailing include many personal biases. I have a neighbor who goes cruising. He's a powerboater and he has a wide screen TV, VCR, huge stereo, a huge galley, a bathroom (hardly a head) that would put some home bathrooms to shame. To him, a house that has somehow put to sea, is "cruising". Then there was one of the great legends of the sailing community, Nathaniel Herreshoff who once said, What good is cruising if it is no different than staying home. Whose to say what's right?

Winthrop lists some of the myriad of successful voyages in small boats as evidence of seaworthiness. There is no question that many boats are seaworthy if sailed by competent sailors. What would be more interesting to me here, and what might add some perspective, would be a list of all voyages attempted in "small" and "large" boats that didn't make it. Then a crude percentage could be calculated as to what percent of small boat voyages ended in failure as opposed to large boat attempts. As I said, it would be a very crude statistic and I doubt that the information is readily available anyway.

I'd better shut up now. I've never been accused of being "short winded" and this has kept my reputation in tact.

[SeaBelle]

I echo the feelings of those who supported Winthrop and the rest of us in using our own voice to share our opinions.

I value the opinions and experiences shared here and the civility of this comunity. We can't all be world cruisers or expert craftsman but I hope we can all be kind to each other.

---------------------------
'Be not angry that you can not make others as you wish them to be, since you cannot make yourself as you wish to be' - Thomas a Kempis

[Neil Gordon]

What would be more interesting to me here, and what might add some perspective, would be a list of all voyages attempted in "small" and "large" boats that didn't make it. Then a crude percentage could be calculated as to what percent of small boat voyages ended in failure as opposed to large boat attempts.

Good, although I'm not sure there are data for the number of attempts. Usually you only get on the record if you die trying.

Might be interesting to analize data from a single event, such as the Fastnet storm. I don't have the book handy, but you could draw some conclusions. Still, the quality of the individual boat, experience of the crew, luck/chance, etc., are all factors. I suspect the conculsion of any study would be what we perhaps know intuitively. If given a choice between a Typhoon and a Catalina 27 (not to pick on Catalina specifically) of the same vintage, which would you rather ride for a few days in a gale?

(A friend sailed a Catalina 27 from Provincetown to Marblehead a decade or so ago. Seas picked up and the boat/hull/deck was "oilcanning" as it rode the waves. He sold the boat more or less on arrival.)