CD TY 45 degree Heel

trek47 · Post by **trek47** » Aug 29th, '05, 06:19

I recently wanted to see how far I could heel my TY and I had it at a 45 degree heel and the question I have is how much heel will she go before capsizing. I recently was caught in 20 knot winds and the swells were close to 5ft and I was sailing downwind and I became concerned what may happen surfing such swells, but I made it without incident. I sail mostly in the Narragansett Bay and there are times it gets pretty rough out here. I appreciate any similar experiences you may be able to share on this topic. Thnx-Mich Hull # 533

Neil Gordon · Post by **Neil Gordon** » Aug 29th, '05, 08:56

trek47 wrote: ... how much heel will she go before capsizing.

It's about impossible to capsize from wind alone, as the further you heel, the less force is applied to the sails. Lying flat on her side, the keel will still do everything it can to get itself back under the hull, where it belongs.

To capsize, you'd have to be rolled by wave action. Five footers on Narraganset Bay are not likely to do that. The greater risk is heeling to the point where the water forgets to stay outside the boat. Substitute enough air in the hull for water and although you won't capsize, you will most certainly sink.

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Aug 29th, '05, 09:05

The TY and all CDs have plenty of righting moment at 90, mast on the water. BUT that's just part of the equation. While the TY will have the righting moment to right herself from a 90 knockdown, IF you take on lots of water, fill the cockpit and it gets below you've lost quite abit of her inherent ability. What will your hatch board do if you roll to 90 and stay there awhile? Can they be locked in place?Figure what the weight of water would be IF her cockpit were full. How long will it take to drain? How much will get below? A cockpit full of water will reduce your freeboard and bouncy and make the NEXT knockdown all the much worse. As long as the water stays outside you can slap the mast on the water all day long and still come back up. Un fortunately that won't happen. Most likely a 90 degree knock down will tend to put a lot of water in the cockpit, pulling the stern down. After that each knockdown will only make matters worse.
Reef early and keep the hatch boards LOCKED in place.

Randy 25D Seraph #161

Neil Gordon · Post by **Neil Gordon** » Aug 29th, '05, 09:33

rtbates wrote:Figure what the weight of water would be IF her cockpit were full. How long will it take to drain?

If conditions deteriorate, you can also reduce the available space in the cockpit by filling in with an extra sail/bag or two and lashing them in place. The best strategy remains what you said... reef early and keep the boards locked in place so that the water stays on the outside.

Rollergirl · Post by **Rollergirl** » Aug 29th, '05, 10:38

Lots of info in the archives concerning good, functional inexpensive ways to keep the seat hatches from coming open or adrift.
Good luck
Bill

Frank Vernet · Post by **Frank Vernet** » Aug 29th, '05, 10:39

Neil is correct about mere wind being insufficient to capsize your Typhoon. So heel away to your heart's content.

Neil Gordon wrote: To capsize, you'd have to be rolled by wave action. Five footers on Narraganset Bay are not likely to do that.

Also probably true. However, I recently read a study done (US Navy I think) looking at the minimum <u>breaking</u> wave caught beam on required to roll a boat.

It turns out that a wave height of approx. 1/3 the length of a boat is sufficient to roll the boat. e.g. a 15' boat can be rolled by a 5' high wave, a 30' boat can be rolled by a 10' wave, etc.

So, while a 18'6" Typhoon is unlikely to succumb to a 5' breaker caught beam on, it is coming on close to that "1/3" rule. A 6' breaker might do it and I can't tell the difference between a 5' and a 6' breaker.

Recall that unlucky boater caught in a small breaker under the San Francisco Bay Bridge.

Just something to keep in mind.

Neil Gordon · Post by **Neil Gordon** » Aug 29th, '05, 10:49

Frank Vernet wrote:However, I recently read a study done (US Navy I think) looking at the minimum <u>breaking</u> wave caught beam on required to roll a boat... Recall that unlucky boater caught in a small breaker under the San Francisco Bay Bridge.

Waves break for a reason and it's not likely that breaking waves will be encountered unless...

You're close to shore or crossing a bar or a reef, where the bottom of the wave slows down and the top keeps going until it falls over...

The wind is blowing so hard that the seas heap up and the tops get blown over. That's not going to happen to most of us.

Still, I'd be careful in a small boat when dealing with steep waves, breaking or not.

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Aug 29th, '05, 11:34

I couldn't agree more with what Randy and Neil have said. As I have previously stated, 20° heel is the limit of my comfort zone. Between that and 25° activates a panic control drill. Now that'e me, personally.

One of the things that can happen in a Ty when surfing the crest of waves while under full sail, possibly while wing on wing, is one error can bring on a broach. The bow is lower than the stern and it is possible to lose full rudder con trol. As the hull rolls toward the trough, if the roll is severe enough, the lee coaming goes under and scoops water into the cockpit. Not only does the hull take on water, but this water puts on the brakes as the hull slides down from the crest and more water comes in. A nasty cycle can begin.

Now, I don't want to be a prophet of doom saying this. But it can happen, albeit rarely. It has happened though. When the hull buoyancy is overcome beyond the point of no return, the built in weight of the keel ballast is greater than the buoyancy and the boat will go down.

I realize that many sailors enjoy sailing with the rail awash. I have no problem with that. Please don't misunderstand me. My personal view is that carrying excessive canvas in weather that calls for less is not very prudent safetywise, but also causes undue strain on the rigging and other components associated with it.

As a side bar, about a year or so ago there was a thread going concerning the installation of hull flotation The thread died a premature death. I thought that it was an interesting topic. My feeling is that so few readers knew much about the subject and therefor, there weren't very many knowledgeable replies to keep it alive.

I'm just mentioning some of my viewpoints on sailing, risky or otherwise. Again, borrowing Seabelle's mature approach on sailing, "There are old sailors and there are bold sailors. There are no old, bold sailors." I happen to be an old sailor.

Sail safely,
O J

Neil Gordon · Post by **Neil Gordon** » Aug 29th, '05, 12:16

Oswego John wrote:My personal view is that carrying excessive canvas in weather that calls for less is not very prudent safetywise, but also causes undue strain on the rigging and other components associated with it.

It can slow you down, too. Heeling increases weather helm. More rudder offsets that but it also acts as a brake. Aside from that, the better balanced boat with a reef tied in will track better towards its destination and so velocity made good will further improve. Lastly, by calming the boat a bit you can calm the crew a bit more. With less excitement in the cockpit, you're apt to make better tactical/navigation decisions. Oh (I know I said "lastly" but...), the other thing that excessive heeling does is obscure visibility to leeward. That can be a very bad thing.

Bill Goldsmith · Post by **Bill Goldsmith** » Aug 29th, '05, 12:54

Neil Gordon wrote: The best strategy remains what you said... reef early and keep the boards locked in place so that the water stays on the outside.

Although not applicable to a Ty, on the larger CDs don't forget to dog the portlights (and hatches) when under way in anything more than a gentle afternoon sail.

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Aug 29th, '05, 14:43

Hi all,

As an afterthought, I'm trying to picture in my mind just where the helmsman ,and crew if any, are when the Ty is 45° over on it's side.

I've never seen them with hiking boards. I sure hope that the bench cushions are securely attached, or at least that they float.

I hope that the crew floats, too. One way or another, I feel that someone is going to get wet.

O J

Neil Gordon · Post by **Neil Gordon** » Aug 29th, '05, 15:05

Oswego John wrote:... I'm trying to picture in my mind just where the helmsman ,and crew if any, are when the Ty is 45° over on it's side.

... I sure hope that the bench cushions are securely attached, ...or at least that they float.

Cushions first. Mine slide when I get to about 15 degrees. For sure, when the first reef goes in, put the cushions down below.

As for where you are when the boat is over 45 degrees... you essentially stand on the leeward sole and/or brace yourself on the opposite seat. No hiking out required in a keel boat, even a smaller one.

winthrop fisher · Post by **winthrop fisher** » Aug 30th, '05, 06:36

Hi...
in all the years of sailing the typhoon, i have never had it past 45 degrees, maybe in that one big storm years ago i had it at fifthty degrees.
the cockpit was flooded from the waves as high as the mast and the winds over forty plus with three or four feet of head sail out.
and the that typhoon would take any thing short of a hurricane.

the only person that tryd to see if he could turn over his typhoon over in calf coast from sca magizeen in forty knots winds and six foot waves and he found that with nine hundred pounds of ballast would not let him sink or turn turtle in that boat.

he found that the boat is the strongest boat around for its size and would take any thing, he wrote an six pages for that magazeen sca.

besides the fact that mine typhoon has gone thru more hurricanes on the coast sense 1974 up to 1991, all was in the slip.

just my two cents,
winthrop

trek47 wrote:I recently wanted to see how far I could heel my TY and I had it at a 45 degree heel and the question I have is how much heel will she go before capsizing. I recently was caught in 20 knot winds and the swells were close to 5ft and I was sailing downwind and I became concerned what may happen surfing such swells, but I made it without incident. I sail mostly in the Narragansett Bay and there are times it gets pretty rough out here. I appreciate any similar experiences you may be able to share on this topic. Thnx-Mich Hull # 533

winthrop fisher · Post by **winthrop fisher** » Aug 30th, '05, 06:45

Hey Mich.
take it from some one that has had typhoons and has sailed all over the world, reading is one thing, but doing is some thing else.
winthrop

trek47 wrote:I recently wanted to see how far I could heel my TY and I had it at a 45 degree heel and the question I have is how much heel will she go before capsizing. I recently was caught in 20 knot winds and the swells were close to 5ft and I was sailing downwind and I became concerned what may happen surfing such swells, but I made it without incident. I sail mostly in the Narragansett Bay and there are times it gets pretty rough out here. I appreciate any similar experiences you may be able to share on this topic. Thnx-Mich Hull # 533

Paul McCary · Post by **Paul McCary** » Aug 30th, '05, 19:06

Back to the original post, Mich, I am really curious WHY you need to know how far past 45 degrees capsize is. Do you conduct similar tests on SUVs cornering at 50 mph to see when they roll?

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