Engine Gremlins - Any Ideas?

[Chris Reinke]

I am stumped and would appreciate any suggestions or ideas. My CD330 is equipped with a Universal M-30 diesel. Over the past several weeks I have experienced an intermittent problems when trying to start the motor. When I turn the ignition key on I can hear the fuel pump activated. I then push and hold the glow plug button for 5 - 15 seconds depending on engine temperature. When I hit the starter button - nothing. I hit the button again and again and yet the gremlins keep the motor from turning over.

As Murphy’s Law would dictate, the problem usually occurs at a crowded fuel dock. I advise the crew that the sacred dance of the motor gods must be performed if we are to be saved. The dance is usually enjoyed by the other boaters on the dock. After the dance is completed (30 seconds later) I then hit the starter button and she fires right up.

Any ideas? Is this a button problem (starter or glow plug), or a starter problem? The fact that it is intermittent (once every 10 attempts) but can persist for several tries has me baffled.

Chris Reinke
CD330 - Innisfail



Chris.reinke@transamerica.com

[Lee H. Hodsdon]

Chris,

First, what are the steps to the Sacred Dance to the Motor Gods?

Second, when you push the start button you mention there is nothing. If there is no sound such as the click of the starter solenoid, my guess would be the that starter button itself is the problem. Or there may be a loose wire associated with the button. You should be able to test the contacts with a multi meter. They may be corroded, only making contact after the above mentioned dance. Long live rock!

If there is the sound of the solenoid, it may be stuck. You could jump the contacts on the end of the solenoid to initiate a start.

Just my two cents worth, best of luck.

Lee

P.S. I'm going to look at fuel docks more closely now!



lhodsdon@nh.ultranet.com

[Tom]

I am stumped and would appreciate any suggestions or ideas. My CD330 is equipped with a Universal M-30 diesel. Over the past several weeks I have experienced an intermittent problems when trying to start the motor. When I turn the ignition key on I can hear the fuel pump activated. I then push and hold the glow plug button for 5 - 15 seconds depending on engine temperature. When I hit the starter button - nothing. I hit the button again and again and yet the gremlins keep the motor from turning over.

As Murphy’s Law would dictate, the problem usually occurs at a crowded fuel dock. I advise the crew that the sacred dance of the motor gods must be performed if we are to be saved. The dance is usually enjoyed by the other boaters on the dock. After the dance is completed (30 seconds later) I then hit the starter button and she fires right up.

Any ideas? Is this a button problem (starter or glow plug), or a starter problem? The fact that it is intermittent (once every 10 attempts) but can persist for several tries has me baffled.

Chris Reinke
CD330 - Innisfail

Chris: I've had the same problem with my Universal for the last ten years. I've replaced the stater button and the starter motor to no avail. My mechanic says this happens because the block is iron and the pistons are aluminum they cool off and contract at a different rate and thus the pistons get frozen to the wall until they contract. You'll notice that it seldom happens when the engine is cold, but is very commom when you just stop for a minute such as at a fuel dock. He suggested bigger battery cables to deliver more amps to the starter motor. I haven't tried it yet so I don't know if it would help. On the other side mine has never failed to start after a little dancing. It's a bother, but it's never stranded me -- so far. Before turning on the key I take my thumb and twist the buttons back and forth, then turn on the key and warm the glow plugs then "dance" on the bottons.
Both at once for just a second, then hold down the starter button and dance on the glow plug button, then hold down the glow plug button and dance (on off on off)on the starter button. Then both at once and hold. As soon as she turns over once (loosens the pistons)she will turn over and start right up. I don't think it's in the starter motor or buttons although they contribute to the problem. When you start the engine every day (on a trip)it seems to happen less frequently. If you find a solution let us know.



TacCammbria@thegrid.net

[Joe]

Chris,

First, what are the steps to the Sacred Dance to the Motor Gods?

Second, when you push the start button you mention there is nothing. If there is no sound such as the click of the starter solenoid, my guess would be the that starter button itself is the problem. Or there may be a loose wire associated with the button. You should be able to test the contacts with a multi meter. They may be corroded, only making contact after the above mentioned dance. Long live rock!

If there is the sound of the solenoid, it may be stuck. You could jump the contacts on the end of the solenoid to initiate a start.

Just my two cents worth, best of luck.

Lee

P.S. I'm going to look at fuel docks more closely now!

Chris,

As Lee mentioned, the key is if you hear the solonoid "click" when you push the starter button. If you don't, it is probably the starter button itself. Our 330 was manufactured in '86 and we had to replace the starter button about two years ago. Same symptoms. As the starter button/switch isn't easy to come by, we now carry a spare.

If you hear a single "click" from the solonoid, you have one of the following:

bad solonoid

bad or undercharged starter battery

bad connection at starter battery terminal

short to ground in starting system (including the ignition key switch which is part of the system)

Bad starter (if this is the case, you can probably get the starter rebuilt anywhere automotive starters are rebuilt -- contrary to the big myth in the sky, there is little difference between marine and automotive starters. Most "marine" starters are souped up Delcos (Balmar, for example) and most automotive parts/repair places can rebuild just fine).

Joe




tgjournal@gestalt.org

[john churchill]

I am stumped and would appreciate any suggestions or ideas. My CD330 is equipped with a Universal M-30 diesel. Over the past several weeks I have experienced an intermittent problems when trying to start the motor. When I turn the ignition key on I can hear the fuel pump activated. I then push and hold the glow plug button for 5 - 15 seconds depending on engine temperature. When I hit the starter button - nothing. I hit the button again and again and yet the gremlins keep the motor from turning over.

As Murphy’s Law would dictate, the problem usually occurs at a crowded fuel dock. I advise the crew that the sacred dance of the motor gods must be performed if we are to be saved. The dance is usually enjoyed by the other boaters on the dock. After the dance is completed (30 seconds later) I then hit the starter button and she fires right up.

Any ideas? Is this a button problem (starter or glow plug), or a starter problem? The fact that it is intermittent (once every 10 attempts) but can persist for several tries has me baffled.

Chris Reinke
CD330 - Innisfail

Chris: I've had the same problem with my Universal for the last ten years. I've replaced the stater button and the starter motor to no avail. My mechanic says this happens because the block is iron and the pistons are aluminum they cool off and contract at a different rate and thus the pistons get frozen to the wall until they contract. You'll notice that it seldom happens when the engine is cold, but is very commom when you just stop for a minute such as at a fuel dock. He suggested bigger battery cables to deliver more amps to the starter motor. I haven't tried it yet so I don't know if it would help. On the other side mine has never failed to start after a little dancing. It's a bother, but it's never stranded me -- so far. Before turning on the key I take my thumb and twist the buttons back and forth, then turn on the key and warm the glow plugs then "dance" on the bottons.
Both at once for just a second, then hold down the starter button and dance on the glow plug button, then hold down the glow plug button and dance (on off on off)on the starter button. Then both at once and hold. As soon as she turns over once (loosens the pistons)she will turn over and start right up. I don't think it's in the starter motor or buttons although they contribute to the problem. When you start the engine every day (on a trip)it seems to happen less frequently. If you find a solution let us know.

if this is the case, then turning the engine just a little with a wrench on the crankshaft nut should free it up. i once read that you lose about 0.1 volts even at every good soldered connection, much greater at poor connections. first thing i would do is check and clean every connection, but then what do i know about diesels?

[Matt Cawthorne]

Chris,

Is this a new problem or something that is getting worse? I had similar problems with my Perkins 4.108 last year. I hired the marina to give it a look over. They said is was a bad harness connection and they cleaned it up and things improved. Two weeks before my trip to Bermuda it flared up again. I personally cleaned all of the connections including those for the harness plugs, the batteries, the ground to the engine and the connection to the starter. It got better. On my way back from Bermuda the problem appeared again and continued to get worse. In the end I had the starter rebuilt and the problem has not returned. The problem was that the solonoid which drives the starter gear into mesh and which makes the high current connection for the starter was sticking. At first the increased voltage from the cleaned connections made the difference, but as the friction got worse the unit had to have work. In the end I think that a little oil on the shaft that the starter gear sits on would have been sufficient, but the work to get the starter out of my boat was so much that I was not going to take a chance.

good luck,
Matt

I am stumped and would appreciate any suggestions or ideas. My CD330 is equipped with a Universal M-30 diesel. Over the past several weeks I have experienced an intermittent problems when trying to start the motor. When I turn the ignition key on I can hear the fuel pump activated. I then push and hold the glow plug button for 5 - 15 seconds depending on engine temperature. When I hit the starter button - nothing. I hit the button again and again and yet the gremlins keep the motor from turning over.

As Murphy s Law would dictate, the problem usually occurs at a crowded fuel dock. I advise the crew that the sacred dance of the motor gods must be performed if we are to be saved. The dance is usually enjoyed by the other boaters on the dock. After the dance is completed (30 seconds later) I then hit the starter button and she fires right up.

Any ideas? Is this a button problem (starter or glow plug), or a starter problem? The fact that it is intermittent (once every 10 attempts) but can persist for several tries has me baffled.

Chris Reinke
CD330 - Innisfail

mcawthor@bellatlantic.net

[Ryan Turner]

Hi Chris,

I've recently fixed that very problem on my CD33. Ever since I owned my boat I had to deal with the intermittent operation of my starter button. I finally fixed it the other day by replacing both the glow plug and starter buttons. I can't believe how quick she jumps to start now. You should just replace both of these buttons. Certainly the little contacts inside just get worn out with time. Especially in a marine environment. I ordered new buttons directly from Westerbeke (who bought Universal some time back). Let me know if you need a contact for the parts. I bought mine from the regional distributor in Virginia. I can provide you with a phone number if you need it but don't have it with me right now. I'll have to go to the boat for it.

Ryan Turner
s/v Zenobia
CD 33 hull no. 100
Oriental, NC




rdtec@aol.com

[Ryan Turner]

I think you need to replace both buttons. On my CD33 the power is routed first through the glow plugs, then the starter button. The glow plug button must be depressed for the starter button to work at all. This tells me that if the glow plug button isn't efficiently transferring power when depressed that even with a new starter button the partially bad glow plug button could still prevent the starter from working correctly. It's relatively cheap (and easy) to replace these buttons. Replace both of them.

Ryan Turner

Chris: I've had the same problem with my Universal for the last ten years. I've replaced the stater button and the starter motor to no avail. My mechanic says this happens because the block is iron and the pistons are aluminum they cool off and contract at a different rate and thus the pistons get frozen to the wall until they contract. You'll notice that it seldom happens when the engine is cold, but is very commom when you just stop for a minute such as at a fuel dock. He suggested bigger battery cables to deliver more amps to the starter motor. I haven't tried it yet so I don't know if it would help. On the other side mine has never failed to start after a little dancing. It's a bother, but it's never stranded me -- so far. Before turning on the key I take my thumb and twist the buttons back and forth, then turn on the key and warm the glow plugs then "dance" on the bottons.
Both at once for just a second, then hold down the starter button and dance on the glow plug button, then hold down the glow plug button and dance (on off on off)on the starter button. Then both at once and hold. As soon as she turns over once (loosens the pistons)she will turn over and start right up. I don't think it's in the starter motor or buttons although they contribute to the problem. When you start the engine every day (on a trip)it seems to happen less frequently. If you find a solution let us know.

rdtec@aol.com