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I finally launched our CD30Ketch this past week, and motored less than a mile to hook up to our mooring. Upon arrival at the mooring I throttled down and let the engine quit. I then rushed forward, being alone, to grab the mooring lines. They were fairly covered in seaweed and mussels, so I spent probably 20 min cleaning them off. When I came back to the cockpit I noticed that the igition key was still in the on position. I didn't think much of it, but today we loaded up for our first sail and the engine didn't so much as make a whimper at starting. The batteries appear to be fine (I even tried combining house w/ starter, but now reponse), and I checked fuses, also fine. I cranked the engine once by hand just in case this would close a bad contact or something, but no luck.
Needless to say this was a major dissapointment, especially with the wife and kids on board, and a nice sea breeze kicking up.
So question for the board, and especially you folks with electrical expertise (Larry?): Did I fry something (starter?) when I left the starter key on?? I'm afraid I'm now at the mercy of the local boat yards, and am probaly faced with the cost of a tow, diagnostics, repairs as a minimum. If they need to pull her out of the water too the cost goes up again. After today's frustrations my wife raised the "is this all worth it" question for the first time, so I'm not a happy camper!
Any advice is appreciated. Suggestions on where to take her for service in the Salem / Beverly / Marblehead area are also welcome.
The starter button. If that has failed (I had one fail on an old Yanmar) then you'll get nada when you press it. See below for troubleshooting methods.
Make sure you have checked ALL the fuses. On my Westerbeke there is an engine- mounted fuse that protects the starter motor wiring. It's not in an obvious location.
You might have fried the starter solenoid. Especially if there is not even a clicking sound when you hit the starter button (the clicking sound being the solenoid in action). The solenoid is a relay (usually on or near the starter motor) that allows you to use a low-amp circuit (the starter button) to allow the starter motor to pull amps from the thick wires going to the battery.
You can do your own initial troubleshooting. Get an automotive test lamp with a metal probe, clip the negative to the engine block and check for 12V starting at the battery, following the two applicable circuits: 1) The low-amp solenoid circuit: check circuit all the way from the battery through the engine panel and starter button all the way to the starter motor (solenoid). Make sure you're providing 12V TO the starter solenoid and see if 12V is coming OUT of it when the starter button is depressed. The fault will become obvious when you find 0 volts where there is supposed to be 12V. 2) Also make sure that 12V is available to the starter motor from the big red wire that provides the high amps, and that there is no problem with the main ground wire attaching to the engine block. Let us know what you find! I'm also curious if there could be something I have not thought of.
I cannot see any reason why this repair would require haulout. If it is the starter solenoid the toughest part is gaining access to the fasteners and removing it to take to a shop or replacement. To remove my starter motor in place I invested in about $100 in ratchet extensions and crow-foot offset attachments and now I can do it myself. I figure I am ahead of the game on repair bills.
Others with more familiarity with the 30K should be able to provide engine-specific guidance.
Before you go spending big bucks, there are a few things that you can try in order to get the motor going.
First off, my thinking is that anyone who has a boat with a battery(ies), lights, ignition system etc., should own a volt/ ohm meter and know the basics of how to use it. This will help you do your own troubleshooting on your electrical systems. For what they accomplish, the money spent will be well worth your investment. You can buy a decent one for about $20.00 ay Radio Shack. Be careful about buying el cheapos for less money IMHO, although they will do the job.
When testing on a live 12V starter circuit, make sure that the meter is set on DC volts, on the next higher voltage above 12V.
You can break the starting problem down to several categories and check one of them at a time through the process of elimination.
You say that the batteries APPEAR to be okay. Make certain that they are fully charged, at least the one used for starting. Are the terminals clean, bright and shiny?. If not, clean them up.
You could have a dead starter. Often times there is a poor starter ground. Quite often the culprit is a breakdown or fault somewhere in the wiring in the starter primary circuit which includes the key, push button, starter solenoid and any other thing that is incorporated in the starter circuit. A highly remote cause of trouble is a cracked or worn out set of brushes. It will pay to look up Tom from Cambria's starter tip in the archives.
There are so many points in regard to trouble shooting for an unknown cause, I shall mention a few highlights of things to try.
First, take one automobile jumper cable and attach one end to the starter motor case and the other end to the negative (black) battery terminal. Test to see if the starter works.
Next, place one end of the jumper on the starter stud nut and the other end on the positive (red) battery terminal. Providing that the starter motor is well grounded, it should spin. Wear eye protection and take care that there is nothing flameable in the area that sparks could ignite.
While at Radio Shack or other store, purchase a 10' coil of #14 AWG stranded, insulated copper wire and a pack of alligator clips. Cut the wire to a length that will handily reach all terminals of the components of the starter control circuit. Attach an alligator clip on each end of the #14 jumper wire and use it to bypass each component, one after the other until you eliminate the troublesome item. It may be a loose wire, a broken terminal, a break in the wiring, even corroded terminals. Maybe a faulty solenoid. OBSERVE carefully.
I guarantee that you will find the trouble the last thing you check out. Don't forget to look up Tom Cambria's starter tip in the archives.
You're getting good advice. If it were me, I would check to make sure I was getting power from the starter switch and ignition before anything else. Sometimes things happen at the same time and we automatically and mistakenly make a cause -effect relationship between the two. Your leaving the switch on may have nothing to do with the failure you are dealing with.
Maybe you'll get lucky and find that it's just a loose or corroded wire, so don't sweat it, mate.
I bought a "new" Cape Dory 30 late last fall and I was not too confident about the starting and battery situation. Hit the starter button and sometimes it would go and other times nothing. In going over the boat this winter I pulled the insterment panel for painting and watha ya know a lose wire on the starter button conection. I tightened it up and it has worked flaulessly every time this year. Very easy to check and costless to fix. It is usually the simple things that get you. I hope you find it and get back to sailing, Steve.
If your mooring is located where I think it is, off Fort Pickering light, you have a very good mooring for sailing off and back. Raise only the mainsail and drop the buoy and be under way without engine. Reverse the process to return. It may take some practice to slow the boat down when returning but luffing the sail and barely moving is usually the answer.
I think the previous posts make the point that a bit of troubleshooting should cure the starting problem. If you need to get someone from Winter Island Marina, Hawthorne Cove Marina, or Dions Yacht Yard to look at it, they most likely would motor out to your mooring to do the work.
If your engine is one of the Universals then most likely the only thing that happened was that the fuel pump was active while the engine was off and the fuel was simply being pumped back to the tank. I have done that numerous times with no disadvantage. It would take a long while before the batteries would be drained too.
If you want the use of a voltmeter for the troubleshooting let me know. E-mail albertlevesque@verizon.net
What type of engine do you have? You say it cut of when you throttled back.......did you pull the cut off lever? You said not a whimper, does that mean it turned over and didn t start or that nothing happened? I have MD7A in my 30K......good luck with getting going.
I ask as much as say that possibly using an automotive type jumper cable from the battery positive terminal to the stater can eliminate/point to the stater switch circuitry as being your problem.
If nothing, starter, if she starts, the starter switch circuitery is the problem. Works for automotive trouble shooting might tell you something.
The year we purchased our CD32 we could not get the engine to turn over for the pre-purchase test sail. The batteries were only 1 year old but they were Sears Diehards, not marine batteries. I don't know if that made any difference or not, but they tested okay and we did alot of troubleshooting before the previous owner finally walked up to the ship's store and purchased a couple of Interstate Group 24 marine deep cycle batteries. With the new batteries, the engine started right up. Maybe someone on one of the boats close to you will let you borrow a battery for an hour or two?
The worst case scenario would be seawater in the cylinders.
Good luck,
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
boy-did you get some advice! this is probably a very minor problem-just a question of diagnostics-and if you can learn to do that yourself you will be way ahead of the game and not at the mercy of the boatyard-unless you can afford the time and money to let them do the work (which most of us can't) and in any event at least you will have some idea what you are talking about-use the process of elimination-one loose or dirty ground wire or hot cable and you will have the same sypmtoms-try your lights and other 12 volt acessories to see if your batteries are ok-if so-check the wiring at the ignition/start switch-if everything is ok- and you can test the starter in the boat--do that-if not-the starter can be removed-most are held in only by 2 bolts-you may find in disconnecting the wires one is broken or loose-you can have the starter tested at a shop or bench test it by using a 12 vt battery and jumper cables-hot to the main lug on the solenoid-ground to the case and a screwdriver between the solenoid terminal-if it jumps off the floor at you-its fine-p.s.-last year I spent the better part of the summer trying to figure out why my engine would eventually-after hours of running-it would never overheat-it was just the temp gauge climbed higher than normal-if I removed the stairs and opened the hatch and got some air down there it was fine-after replacing the water pump impellers and worrying that is was the heat exchanger etc.-you know what it was ? a $7.00 water pump belt that would slip when the engine warmed up-not enough to overheat the engine-but just enough-so this is a matter of detective work-rule out everything one by one-and start with the simple stuff first-check your battery grounds!
Oswego John wrote:
I guarantee that you will find the trouble the last thing you check out.
The reason it's always the last thing we try is twofold:
1) If we try some thing and it's not that we try something else, and
2) When we find the problem we stop looking
But seriously, there is good advise here.
1) I have a Westerbeke 21 and I didn't know about the engine fuse.
2) I didn't know about the jumper cable trick
3) Making a test cable from #14 wire seems like a good idea
Bill Goldsmith wrote:
On my Westerbeke there is an engine- mounted fuse that protects the starter motor wiring. It's not in an obvious location.
I currently have a starting problem and tried to remove the starter/solenoid on my Westerbeke 21 in order to have them bench tested and fixed.. I found two bolts on the aft end and removed them but the starter wouldn't budge. I applied so leverage with a piece of wood but only managed to get the bolt holes a bit out of alignment. Any suggestions?
Sail on,
Jack
CD28 Sea Belle
Hailport - Rockland, ME
There are old sailors and bold sailors, but there are no old, bold sailors.
Reef early and often. It's easier to shake out a reef when one is bored than it is to tuck one in when one is scared.
When your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.
I wanted to see if anyone caught on to "the last thing you test will find the trouble."
Life can be peculiar, funny and oft times very predictable. Have you ever noticed that it seems that the last place you look is where you find your eyeglasses or car keys. Hmmm.
As Bill Goldsmith pointed out, there is a fuse protecting the starter primary circuit. This was pointed out to us a while back by Tom of Cambria and I could have mentioned it but I didn't want to steal his thunder. That's why I suggested that you read about it in the archives. BTW, there is more to his advice.
I happen to be in a very apologetic mood at this time. Last night I read the post about the engine starter blues and started to write an answer to it. The abominable phone rang and I was talking on it for over a half hour. After hanging up, I went back to finishing my answer. After previewing and submitting it, I discovered that Bill Goldsmith had also answered the query quite well while I was dallying on the phone.
So what's to apologize for? Bill mentioned a perfectly good way to test the electricity through it's path to energize the starter by the use of a test lamp. I was extolling the use of a volt/ohmmeter to test circuits. I want to make it clear that in no way did I intend to denigrate the use of test lamps, I use them all the time and they do the job quite well. I'm sorry if anyone read anything different into my reply than I meant it to be.
John, You're such a gentleman it's a lesson for us all. Please don't ever feel you're stealing my thunder and feel free to pass along any information that I post here and take credit for it if you want. If I stumble upon that million dollar idea I won't be posting it here but I'll be down at the patent office so anything I post here is considered to be in the public domain. When I was born I didn't know the first thing about boats or engines. Everything I know I learned from someone else either in a book or in person, so I consider it a matter of just returning the many favors done to me over the years. I've learned a tremendous amount from your postings and I'm sure I haven't always given you credit when I pass them along so there's no thunder to be stolen. Regards.
As Cathy mentioned earlier, check the batteries...have them load tested not just voltage tested. You may have to remove them from the boat if you can't get your hands on a portable tester. This is where the energy source for the starting circuit begins...first make sure you have enough power to turn the starter. Failing batteries can produce some deceiving symptoms.
When I was born I didn't know the first thing about boats or engines. Everything I know I learned from someone else either in a book or in person, so I consider it a matter of just returning the many favors done to me over the years. I've learned a tremendous amount from your postings and I'm sure I haven't always given you credit when I pass them along so there's no thunder to be stolen. Regards.