Thoughts on sea anchors and drogues for Cape Dory's

[Ken Coit]

Would it be possible to fit a trip line to the series drogues or are they bi-directional?

Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC

I investigated series drogues myself but found a couple of issues for the small boat sailor. First off to use the correct length of line with the many cones attached, we're talking about quite a large package to stow and deploy. Even more than that problem is the issue of retrieval. I read that a winch should not be used for retrieval because as the line coils up it tends to rip the attached parachutes and can jam on retrieval. This leaves you with a need to use the engine to hold stationary during retrieval and pull it in by hand, of course the line is launched from the stern, awfully close to the prop. As others have mentioned, on a full keel boat with the cutaway forefoot the bow will always try to fall away from the wind (as we all know from backing out of our slips) so stern rigged gear makes sense since this is the boats natural position. A more practical idea might be the Galerider. It folds into its own bag and because it has a single line it can be retrieved by a winch without problem. In actual cases many found that it could be used on a relatively short line also and still be effective. One circumnavigator (on a 27 footer), deployed the Galerider and sheeted a storm jib flat amidships to aid in directional stability. Of course these are not my experiences and I won't complain if I NEVER have any of my own, but if I did I would try to heave-to under main or trysail alone, and if I had to fall off I would use the device that was the easiest to launch and retrieve since NOTHING will be easy in those conditions! Let us know what you decide.

Bill

parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com

[LaVida]

Hey John,


Yes, totally agree. the humble swivel saves the day in many an instance.


I also agree with your thoughts on the bridle. Shock loads are the worst,especially loads created on the angle.


I've been considering the best way of rigging a bridle that would run from the breast cleat aft, incorporating the aft cleat. Perhaps I should run it from the bow cleats?. Flat webbing comes to mind, ease under foot being the main idea, but I'm not too sure of the stretch factor. Will need to do more research into its properties.


I have recently read somewhere about a new Samson anchor line which combines three strand and braid. Supposed to have exceptional properties perhaps it would be a good choice for the whole unit.


Another item I use in my boat holding arsenal is the large black dock line snubber. Besides working great for mooring lines, I've found them to work well as anchor snubbers and depending on the loads generated by the series drogue, potentially the bridle.


I'll keep you advised on my progress. Any thoughts about rigging the bridle would be most appreciated.


thanks for your thoughts,


Mike

Hi Mike,

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I thought that maybe I'd toss in a few thoughts of my own. When you mentioned using John V's idea of towing a tire(s), you said the magic word, SWIVEL.

There is one practice that I have used since early on, and that is whenever I tow anything with line, somewhere I add a swivel. This is especially true when using three strand, twisted line.It is a must on a permanent mooring.

I think that it is a very good idea to beef up the aft, horn cleat backing plates. The load from a drogue can be substantial. An even higher load is produced when a single drogue pulls free from the side of a wave, skips across the trough and then grabs new water. This produces a sudden jerk on the cleat(s) and this hammering pressure, in my mind, is much greater than the steady pressure derived from a series of drogues. Using a series of well spaced drogues, there should always be at least one drogue grabbing water to retard and prevent jerking on the cleat(s).

There are several ways that you might spread the total drag load among several cleats, bits and sampson posts. It's probably better and safer to distribute the load than to depend on one or two cleats.

The following thought may not apply to towing a drogue but I'll mention it now if anyone should have to be towed in rough seas. We had a prefabbed harness made up that was slung behind and across the transom of the boat to be towed. The harness ran along either freeboard and was connected at the bow of the towed boat, employing the use of a stout swivel. Several smaller lines were laid athwartship and connected to the harness to suspend it and keep it in place.

In a rough sea, the towed boat was pulled by the entire hull and not dependent on the holding strength of a bow cleat and the resulting hammering it would surely endure. Just my 2¢. Good luck in your fitting out.

Oswego John
Any white stuff last night?
We had a few flurries, 5" or 6" total
We don't call it snow until it measures 20" or more

Some very good information has been presented. As in all things boating, nothing is a full stop answer, there must always be compromise.

I've successfully used John's tire method in a couple of my Atlantic crossings. One crossing we punched through the tires, bolted on a swivel, then sawed slits in the tire walls (on the trailing side) so they would open up and create even more drag. That coupled with a bit of chain on the last tire worked quite well.

However LaVida will be packed to the hilt for the crossing, so there will be no room to store such fixed sized objects below. They would have to be stored on deck and raises concern they could present a further drag problem during a boarding sea.

I've also had occasion to use a sea anchor on a workboat during a nasty bit of weather in the North Sea a few years back. It was quite a large one and we even had a knuckle crane to manhandle it. Even then it was a real nightmare to retrieve.

With all the information I’ve been able to collect and the thoughts expressed here, I'm leaning towards the series drogue.

Now the next question is rigging the bridle necessary for the drogue.

I’m wondering if I should beef up the backing plates on the aft horn cleats. I understand the loads imposed by the drogue can be substantial.

I’ve never found them lacking so far, but…………:-)


Thanks again to all of you for your comments.


Mike
LaVida
CD33

[John R.]

Ken,

I don't believe they recommend a trip line because of potential entanglement issues, plus the small cones apparently make it retreviable as is without too much difficulty. Try reading the entire articles on the series drouge site, somewhere in there it discusses it. One reason I like my Gale Rider no trip line needed. My Para Anchor requires one and a float.

Would it be possible to fit a trip line to the series drogues or are they bi-directional?

Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC

I investigated series drogues myself but found a couple of issues for the small boat sailor. First off to use the correct length of line with the many cones attached, we're talking about quite a large package to stow and deploy. Even more than that problem is the issue of retrieval. I read that a winch should not be used for retrieval because as the line coils up it tends to rip the attached parachutes and can jam on retrieval. This leaves you with a need to use the engine to hold stationary during retrieval and pull it in by hand, of course the line is launched from the stern, awfully close to the prop. As others have mentioned, on a full keel boat with the cutaway forefoot the bow will always try to fall away from the wind (as we all know from backing out of our slips) so stern rigged gear makes sense since this is the boats natural position. A more practical idea might be the Galerider. It folds into its own bag and because it has a single line it can be retrieved by a winch without problem. In actual cases many found that it could be used on a relatively short line also and still be effective. One circumnavigator (on a 27 footer), deployed the Galerider and sheeted a storm jib flat amidships to aid in directional stability. Of course these are not my experiences and I won't complain if I NEVER have any of my own, but if I did I would try to heave-to under main or trysail alone, and if I had to fall off I would use the device that was the easiest to launch and retrieve since NOTHING will be easy in those conditions! Let us know what you decide.

Bill

[Oswego John]

Hey Mike,

EUREKA. Aha, maybe you've just stumbled upon a very important concept in regard to towing a series drouge. By using one or several snubbers with the towing line, I think that it would cut down on much of the hammering, jerking effect on your towing attachment(s).

Anyone out there have any thoughts, ideas or critique of this idea? It might be used to good advantage, maybe not.

Oswego John

Hey John,


Yes, totally agree. the humble swivel saves the day in many an instance.


I also agree with your thoughts on the bridle. Shock loads are the worst,especially loads created on the angle.


I've been considering the best way of rigging a bridle that would run from the breast cleat aft, incorporating the aft cleat. Perhaps I should run it from the bow cleats?. Flat webbing comes to mind, ease under foot being the main idea, but I'm not too sure of the stretch factor. Will need to do more research into its properties.


I have recently read somewhere about a new Samson anchor line which combines three strand and braid. Supposed to have exceptional properties perhaps it would be a good choice for the whole unit.


Another item I use in my boat holding arsenal is the large black dock line snubber. Besides working great for mooring lines, I've found them to work well as anchor snubbers and depending on the loads generated by the series drogue, potentially the bridle.


I'll keep you advised on my progress. Any thoughts about rigging the bridle would be most appreciated.


thanks for your thoughts,


Mike

Hi Mike,

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I thought that maybe I'd toss in a few thoughts of my own. When you mentioned using John V's idea of towing a tire(s), you said the magic word, SWIVEL.

There is one practice that I have used since early on, and that is whenever I tow anything with line, somewhere I add a swivel. This is especially true when using three strand, twisted line.It is a must on a permanent mooring.

I think that it is a very good idea to beef up the aft, horn cleat backing plates. The load from a drogue can be substantial. An even higher load is produced when a single drogue pulls free from the side of a wave, skips across the trough and then grabs new water. This produces a sudden jerk on the cleat(s) and this hammering pressure, in my mind, is much greater than the steady pressure derived from a series of drogues. Using a series of well spaced drogues, there should always be at least one drogue grabbing water to retard and prevent jerking on the cleat(s).

There are several ways that you might spread the total drag load among several cleats, bits and sampson posts. It's probably better and safer to distribute the load than to depend on one or two cleats.

The following thought may not apply to towing a drogue but I'll mention it now if anyone should have to be towed in rough seas. We had a prefabbed harness made up that was slung behind and across the transom of the boat to be towed. The harness ran along either freeboard and was connected at the bow of the towed boat, employing the use of a stout swivel. Several smaller lines were laid athwartship and connected to the harness to suspend it and keep it in place.

In a rough sea, the towed boat was pulled by the entire hull and not dependent on the holding strength of a bow cleat and the resulting hammering it would surely endure. Just my 2¢. Good luck in your fitting out.

Oswego John
Any white stuff last night?
We had a few flurries, 5" or 6" total
We don't call it snow until it measures 20" or more

Some very good information has been presented. As in all things boating, nothing is a full stop answer, there must always be compromise.

I've successfully used John's tire method in a couple of my Atlantic crossings. One crossing we punched through the tires, bolted on a swivel, then sawed slits in the tire walls (on the trailing side) so they would open up and create even more drag. That coupled with a bit of chain on the last tire worked quite well.

However LaVida will be packed to the hilt for the crossing, so there will be no room to store such fixed sized objects below. They would have to be stored on deck and raises concern they could present a further drag problem during a boarding sea.

I've also had occasion to use a sea anchor on a workboat during a nasty bit of weather in the North Sea a few years back. It was quite a large one and we even had a knuckle crane to manhandle it. Even then it was a real nightmare to retrieve.

With all the information I’ve been able to collect and the thoughts expressed here, I'm leaning towards the series drogue.

Now the next question is rigging the bridle necessary for the drogue.

I’m wondering if I should beef up the backing plates on the aft horn cleats. I understand the loads imposed by the drogue can be substantial.

I’ve never found them lacking so far, but…………:-)


Thanks again to all of you for your comments.


Mike
LaVida
CD33

[LaVida]

John,

I making up two bridles, snubber on each aft leg. They will run from bow to breast to stern cleats then to the bridle and swivel to the drogue train of 117 cones.

Wonder if any industry produces cones of like spec? Sure would save a lot of time sewing if I could find the cones already made.

Any thoughts?

sea u,
mike

Hey Mike,

EUREKA. Aha, maybe you've just stumbled upon a very important concept in regard to towing a series drouge. By using one or several snubbers with the towing line, I think that it would cut down on much of the hammering, jerking effect on your towing attachment(s).

Anyone out there have any thoughts, ideas or critique of this idea? It might be used to good advantage, maybe not.

Oswego John

Hey John,


Yes, totally agree. the humble swivel saves the day in many an instance.


I also agree with your thoughts on the bridle. Shock loads are the worst,especially loads created on the angle.


I've been considering the best way of rigging a bridle that would run from the breast cleat aft, incorporating the aft cleat. Perhaps I should run it from the bow cleats?. Flat webbing comes to mind, ease under foot being the main idea, but I'm not too sure of the stretch factor. Will need to do more research into its properties.


I have recently read somewhere about a new Samson anchor line which combines three strand and braid. Supposed to have exceptional properties perhaps it would be a good choice for the whole unit.


Another item I use in my boat holding arsenal is the large black dock line snubber. Besides working great for mooring lines, I've found them to work well as anchor snubbers and depending on the loads generated by the series drogue, potentially the bridle.


I'll keep you advised on my progress. Any thoughts about rigging the bridle would be most appreciated.


thanks for your thoughts,


Mike

Hi Mike,

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I thought that maybe I'd toss in a few thoughts of my own. When you mentioned using John V's idea of towing a tire(s), you said the magic word, SWIVEL.

There is one practice that I have used since early on, and that is whenever I tow anything with line, somewhere I add a swivel. This is especially true when using three strand, twisted line.It is a must on a permanent mooring.

I think that it is a very good idea to beef up the aft, horn cleat backing plates. The load from a drogue can be substantial. An even higher load is produced when a single drogue pulls free from the side of a wave, skips across the trough and then grabs new water. This produces a sudden jerk on the cleat(s) and this hammering pressure, in my mind, is much greater than the steady pressure derived from a series of drogues. Using a series of well spaced drogues, there should always be at least one drogue grabbing water to retard and prevent jerking on the cleat(s).

There are several ways that you might spread the total drag load among several cleats, bits and sampson posts. It's probably better and safer to distribute the load than to depend on one or two cleats.

The following thought may not apply to towing a drogue but I'll mention it now if anyone should have to be towed in rough seas. We had a prefabbed harness made up that was slung behind and across the transom of the boat to be towed. The harness ran along either freeboard and was connected at the bow of the towed boat, employing the use of a stout swivel. Several smaller lines were laid athwartship and connected to the harness to suspend it and keep it in place.

In a rough sea, the towed boat was pulled by the entire hull and not dependent on the holding strength of a bow cleat and the resulting hammering it would surely endure. Just my 2¢. Good luck in your fitting out.

Oswego John
Any white stuff last night?
We had a few flurries, 5" or 6" total
We don't call it snow until it measures 20" or more

[Lavida]

Hey Ken,

What I've read so far, states to haul it in using a choke point about every 8 feet. Don't believe you'd need a trip line, it might wrap around the series drogue and hold the cones partially closed.

sea u,
mike

Would it be possible to fit a trip line to the series drogues or are they bi-directional?

Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC

I investigated series drogues myself but found a couple of issues for the small boat sailor. First off to use the correct length of line with the many cones attached, we're talking about quite a large package to stow and deploy. Even more than that problem is the issue of retrieval. I read that a winch should not be used for retrieval because as the line coils up it tends to rip the attached parachutes and can jam on retrieval. This leaves you with a need to use the engine to hold stationary during retrieval and pull it in by hand, of course the line is launched from the stern, awfully close to the prop. As others have mentioned, on a full keel boat with the cutaway forefoot the bow will always try to fall away from the wind (as we all know from backing out of our slips) so stern rigged gear makes sense since this is the boats natural position. A more practical idea might be the Galerider. It folds into its own bag and because it has a single line it can be retrieved by a winch without problem. In actual cases many found that it could be used on a relatively short line also and still be effective. One circumnavigator (on a 27 footer), deployed the Galerider and sheeted a storm jib flat amidships to aid in directional stability. Of course these are not my experiences and I won't complain if I NEVER have any of my own, but if I did I would try to heave-to under main or trysail alone, and if I had to fall off I would use the device that was the easiest to launch and retrieve since NOTHING will be easy in those conditions! Let us know what you decide.

Bill

[John R.]

Mike,

Personally I would not be concerned about shock loading with a series drouge or a Gale Rider. Both of the designs are such that they purposely reduce shock loading by the virtual act of allowing water to pass with controlled resistence and not blocking the path of water flow except for in a very limited percentage. That's the purpose of them. Slow the boat, not stop it, thus low amounts of shock loading that are easy to deal with. Nonetheless, you should use a bridle of some type to distribute the loading that does exist by their usage but it's not going to be the same degree of loading as it is with a chute anchor type device. The bridle will keep the loading balanced and keep the drouge attached at the centerline unless a bridle line fails. Always something can go wrong. If you want to incorporate all your deck cleats to the bridle why not just make a long bridle that will reach from the stern cleats all the way to your forward cleats and then splice some tails to the main bridle line for the midship and stern cleats. I don't think you need all that at all but that's just my view. If your stern cleats (and the chocks!!! the weakest link on a CD and a very critical element in this rigging) are securely installed with suitable plates you should be fine. We are talking about critical safety gear here so I myself would not depend on a homemade sewing project drouge myself (you may have great sewing skills and a tested design to work from, I surely don't have either), I would just rather be safe than sorry later and purchase the series (Jordan) drouge since that is the drouge design you like, at least you know you can rely on the construction of it as it has had plenty of real world use and testing. FWIW. Good luck with the project.

John,

I making up two bridles, snubber on each aft leg. They will run from bow to breast to stern cleats then to the bridle and swivel to the drogue train of 117 cones.

Wonder if any industry produces cones of like spec? Sure would save a lot of time sewing if I could find the cones already made.

Any thoughts?

sea u,
mike

Hey Mike,

EUREKA. Aha, maybe you've just stumbled upon a very important concept in regard to towing a series drouge. By using one or several snubbers with the towing line, I think that it would cut down on much of the hammering, jerking effect on your towing attachment(s).

Anyone out there have any thoughts, ideas or critique of this idea? It might be used to good advantage, maybe not.

Oswego John

Hey John,


Yes, totally agree. the humble swivel saves the day in many an instance.


I also agree with your thoughts on the bridle. Shock loads are the worst,especially loads created on the angle.


I've been considering the best way of rigging a bridle that would run from the breast cleat aft, incorporating the aft cleat. Perhaps I should run it from the bow cleats?. Flat webbing comes to mind, ease under foot being the main idea, but I'm not too sure of the stretch factor. Will need to do more research into its properties.


I have recently read somewhere about a new Samson anchor line which combines three strand and braid. Supposed to have exceptional properties perhaps it would be a good choice for the whole unit.


Another item I use in my boat holding arsenal is the large black dock line snubber. Besides working great for mooring lines, I've found them to work well as anchor snubbers and depending on the loads generated by the series drogue, potentially the bridle.


I'll keep you advised on my progress. Any thoughts about rigging the bridle would be most appreciated.


thanks for your thoughts,


Mike

[LaVida]

John,

Your point about the snubber use is well taken.

I do have the sewing skill, but the pre-voyage work load is enough already , purchase seems the way.

What's a few more boat credits to the pile, eh?

Thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
LaVida

Mike,

Personally I would not be concerned about shock loading with a series drouge or a Gale Rider. Both of the designs are such that they purposely reduce shock loading by the virtual act of allowing water to pass with controlled resistence and not blocking the path of water flow except for in a very limited percentage. That's the purpose of them. Slow the boat, not stop it, thus low amounts of shock loading that are easy to deal with. Nonetheless, you should use a bridle of some type to distribute the loading that does exist by their usage but it's not going to be the same degree of loading as it is with a chute anchor type device. The bridle will keep the loading balanced and keep the drouge attached at the centerline unless a bridle line fails. Always something can go wrong. If you want to incorporate all your deck cleats to the bridle why not just make a long bridle that will reach from the stern cleats all the way to your forward cleats and then splice some tails to the main bridle line for the midship and stern cleats. I don't think you need all that at all but that's just my view. If your stern cleats (and the chocks!!! the weakest link on a CD and a very critical element in this rigging) are securely installed with suitable plates you should be fine. We are talking about critical safety gear here so I myself would not depend on a homemade sewing project drouge myself (you may have great sewing skills and a tested design to work from, I surely don't have either), I would just rather be safe than sorry later and purchase the series (Jordan) drouge since that is the drouge design you like, at least you know you can rely on the construction of it as it has had plenty of real world use and testing. FWIW. Good luck with the project.

John,

I making up two bridles, snubber on each aft leg. They will run from bow to breast to stern cleats then to the bridle and swivel to the drogue train of 117 cones.

Wonder if any industry produces cones of like spec? Sure would save a lot of time sewing if I could find the cones already made.

Any thoughts?

sea u,
mike

Hey Mike,

EUREKA. Aha, maybe you've just stumbled upon a very important concept in regard to towing a series drouge. By using one or several snubbers with the towing line, I think that it would cut down on much of the hammering, jerking effect on your towing attachment(s).

Anyone out there have any thoughts, ideas or critique of this idea? It might be used to good advantage, maybe not.

Oswego John

[Bill]

Mike

You might want to look into rock climbing techniques for equalizing loads on climbing anchors. There are several ways to equalize the load using webing and a few "special" techniques (i.e. ensuring that each cleat has an equal load on it).

Fair Winds

Bill



cd25d@clnk.com

[Oswego John]

Hi Mike,

There is some very informative info on a series drogue. Type in the address Drogue@Acesails.com or call #860 443-5556. This should answer a lot of your questions. Good luck.

Oswego John

Some very good information has been presented. As in all things boating, nothing is a full stop answer, there must always be compromise.

I've successfully used John's tire method in a couple of my Atlantic crossings. One crossing we punched through the tires, bolted on a swivel, then sawed slits in the tire walls (on the trailing side) so they would open up and create even more drag. That coupled with a bit of chain on the last tire worked quite well.

However LaVida will be packed to the hilt for the crossing, so there will be no room to store such fixed sized objects below. They would have to be stored on deck and raises concern they could present a further drag problem during a boarding sea.

I've also had occasion to use a sea anchor on a workboat during a nasty bit of weather in the North Sea a few years back. It was quite a large one and we even had a knuckle crane to manhandle it. Even then it was a real nightmare to retrieve.

With all the information I’ve been able to collect and the thoughts expressed here, I'm leaning towards the series drogue.

Now the next question is rigging the bridle necessary for the drogue.

I’m wondering if I should beef up the backing plates on the aft horn cleats. I understand the loads imposed by the drogue can be substantial.

I’ve never found them lacking so far, but…………:-)


Thanks again to all of you for your comments.


Mike
LaVida
CD33

http://WWW.Drogue@Acesails.com

[Oswego John]

Hi Mike and all,

I probably gave you the wrong address earlier, sorry. I got this newer address to work a few times, give it a try.
http://www.acesails.com/
phone # 860 443-5556

Hi Mike,

There is some very informative info on a series drogue. Type in the address Drogue@Acesails.com or call #860 443-5556. This should answer a lot of your questions. Good luck.

Oswego John

Some very good information has been presented. As in all things boating, nothing is a full stop answer, there must always be compromise.

I've successfully used John's tire method in a couple of my Atlantic crossings. One crossing we punched through the tires, bolted on a swivel, then sawed slits in the tire walls (on the trailing side) so they would open up and create even more drag. That coupled with a bit of chain on the last tire worked quite well.

However LaVida will be packed to the hilt for the crossing, so there will be no room to store such fixed sized objects below. They would have to be stored on deck and raises concern they could present a further drag problem during a boarding sea.

I've also had occasion to use a sea anchor on a workboat during a nasty bit of weather in the North Sea a few years back. It was quite a large one and we even had a knuckle crane to manhandle it. Even then it was a real nightmare to retrieve.

With all the information I’ve been able to collect and the thoughts expressed here, I'm leaning towards the series drogue.

Now the next question is rigging the bridle necessary for the drogue.

I’m wondering if I should beef up the backing plates on the aft horn cleats. I understand the loads imposed by the drogue can be substantial.

I’ve never found them lacking so far, but…………:-)


Thanks again to all of you for your comments.


Mike
LaVida
CD33

http://www.acesails.com

[LaVida]

Hi Mike and all,

I probably gave you the wrong address earlier, sorry. I got this newer address to work a few times, give it a try.
http://www.acesails.com/
phone # 860 443-5556

Hi Mike,

There is some very informative info on a series drogue. Type in the address Drogue@Acesails.com or call #860 443-5556. This should answer a lot of your questions. Good luck.

Oswego John

Some very good information has been presented. As in all things boating, nothing is a full stop answer, there must always be compromise.

I've successfully used John's tire method in a couple of my Atlantic crossings. One crossing we punched through the tires, bolted on a swivel, then sawed slits in the tire walls (on the trailing side) so they would open up and create even more drag. That coupled with a bit of chain on the last tire worked quite well.

However LaVida will be packed to the hilt for the crossing, so there will be no room to store such fixed sized objects below. They would have to be stored on deck and raises concern they could present a further drag problem during a boarding sea.

I've also had occasion to use a sea anchor on a workboat during a nasty bit of weather in the North Sea a few years back. It was quite a large one and we even had a knuckle crane to manhandle it. Even then it was a real nightmare to retrieve.

With all the information I’ve been able to collect and the thoughts expressed here, I'm leaning towards the series drogue.

Now the next question is rigging the bridle necessary for the drogue.

I’m wondering if I should beef up the backing plates on the aft horn cleats. I understand the loads imposed by the drogue can be substantial.

I’ve never found them lacking so far, but…………:-)


Thanks again to all of you for your comments.


Mike
LaVida
CD33

[randy bates]

If the system can be retrieved without the use of a trip line how much drag can it possibly exert? Is there another, non tripline, method of retreival? Somehow the system needs to be made to stop exerting drag in-order for it to be hauled aboard, right?

randy 25D Seraph #161

Ken,

I don't believe they recommend a trip line because of potential entanglement issues, plus the small cones apparently make it retreviable as is without too much difficulty. Try reading the entire articles on the series drouge site, somewhere in there it discusses it. One reason I like my Gale Rider no trip line needed. My Para Anchor requires one and a float.

Would it be possible to fit a trip line to the series drogues or are they bi-directional?

Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC

I investigated series drogues myself but found a couple of issues for the small boat sailor. First off to use the correct length of line with the many cones attached, we're talking about quite a large package to stow and deploy. Even more than that problem is the issue of retrieval. I read that a winch should not be used for retrieval because as the line coils up it tends to rip the attached parachutes and can jam on retrieval. This leaves you with a need to use the engine to hold stationary during retrieval and pull it in by hand, of course the line is launched from the stern, awfully close to the prop. As others have mentioned, on a full keel boat with the cutaway forefoot the bow will always try to fall away from the wind (as we all know from backing out of our slips) so stern rigged gear makes sense since this is the boats natural position. A more practical idea might be the Galerider. It folds into its own bag and because it has a single line it can be retrieved by a winch without problem. In actual cases many found that it could be used on a relatively short line also and still be effective. One circumnavigator (on a 27 footer), deployed the Galerider and sheeted a storm jib flat amidships to aid in directional stability. Of course these are not my experiences and I won't complain if I NEVER have any of my own, but if I did I would try to heave-to under main or trysail alone, and if I had to fall off I would use the device that was the easiest to launch and retrieve since NOTHING will be easy in those conditions! Let us know what you decide.

Bill

rtbates@austin.rr.com

[randy bates]

Mike:
Be careful with those dock line snubbers. If it's the ones I used to use they will saw thru the line where the line turns thru the snubber. After two years of dock use both my bow lines were very worn. I'd be very cautious in using these in storm conditions. The wear and tear factor on gear is elevated to very high levels.
Best wishes on your up coming trip

Randy 25D Seraph #161

Hey John,


Yes, totally agree. the humble swivel saves the day in many an instance.


I also agree with your thoughts on the bridle. Shock loads are the worst,especially loads created on the angle.


I've been considering the best way of rigging a bridle that would run from the breast cleat aft, incorporating the aft cleat. Perhaps I should run it from the bow cleats?. Flat webbing comes to mind, ease under foot being the main idea, but I'm not too sure of the stretch factor. Will need to do more research into its properties.


I have recently read somewhere about a new Samson anchor line which combines three strand and braid. Supposed to have exceptional properties perhaps it would be a good choice for the whole unit.


Another item I use in my boat holding arsenal is the large black dock line snubber. Besides working great for mooring lines, I've found them to work well as anchor snubbers and depending on the loads generated by the series drogue, potentially the bridle.


I'll keep you advised on my progress. Any thoughts about rigging the bridle would be most appreciated.


thanks for your thoughts,


Mike

Hi Mike,

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I thought that maybe I'd toss in a few thoughts of my own. When you mentioned using John V's idea of towing a tire(s), you said the magic word, SWIVEL.

There is one practice that I have used since early on, and that is whenever I tow anything with line, somewhere I add a swivel. This is especially true when using three strand, twisted line.It is a must on a permanent mooring.

I think that it is a very good idea to beef up the aft, horn cleat backing plates. The load from a drogue can be substantial. An even higher load is produced when a single drogue pulls free from the side of a wave, skips across the trough and then grabs new water. This produces a sudden jerk on the cleat(s) and this hammering pressure, in my mind, is much greater than the steady pressure derived from a series of drogues. Using a series of well spaced drogues, there should always be at least one drogue grabbing water to retard and prevent jerking on the cleat(s).

There are several ways that you might spread the total drag load among several cleats, bits and sampson posts. It's probably better and safer to distribute the load than to depend on one or two cleats.

The following thought may not apply to towing a drogue but I'll mention it now if anyone should have to be towed in rough seas. We had a prefabbed harness made up that was slung behind and across the transom of the boat to be towed. The harness ran along either freeboard and was connected at the bow of the towed boat, employing the use of a stout swivel. Several smaller lines were laid athwartship and connected to the harness to suspend it and keep it in place.

In a rough sea, the towed boat was pulled by the entire hull and not dependent on the holding strength of a bow cleat and the resulting hammering it would surely endure. Just my 2¢. Good luck in your fitting out.

Oswego John
Any white stuff last night?
We had a few flurries, 5" or 6" total
We don't call it snow until it measures 20" or more

Some very good information has been presented. As in all things boating, nothing is a full stop answer, there must always be compromise.

I've successfully used John's tire method in a couple of my Atlantic crossings. One crossing we punched through the tires, bolted on a swivel, then sawed slits in the tire walls (on the trailing side) so they would open up and create even more drag. That coupled with a bit of chain on the last tire worked quite well.

However LaVida will be packed to the hilt for the crossing, so there will be no room to store such fixed sized objects below. They would have to be stored on deck and raises concern they could present a further drag problem during a boarding sea.

I've also had occasion to use a sea anchor on a workboat during a nasty bit of weather in the North Sea a few years back. It was quite a large one and we even had a knuckle crane to manhandle it. Even then it was a real nightmare to retrieve.

With all the information I’ve been able to collect and the thoughts expressed here, I'm leaning towards the series drogue.

Now the next question is rigging the bridle necessary for the drogue.

I’m wondering if I should beef up the backing plates on the aft horn cleats. I understand the loads imposed by the drogue can be substantial.

I’ve never found them lacking so far, but…………:-)


Thanks again to all of you for your comments.


Mike
LaVida
CD33

rtbates@austin.rr.com

[Tom]

While I haven't used every kind of drogue in every kind of condition, my experience has been that when your boat goes into the trough between waves, the oncoming wave tends to throw whatever you're towing toward you. So there is a periodic tightening and little bit of slack in the line. What you do to get it in without a trip line, is every time you get the little bit of slack you bring a little in and cleat off. Then as you ride the crest of the next one and down the face it tightens up and holds you back. In a short time you've got enough in to either manhandle it the rest of the way or you've reduced the drag enough that it can just be winched in. There maybe some conditions where it would be bar tight the whole time, but if it's that tight you won't be thinking about taking it in yet anyway. It's only when the wind and waves ease and you slow down a little that you want to take it in and at that point you'll be getting some slack between waves. At least that's been my experience.

If the system can be retrieved without the use of a trip line how much drag can it possibly exert? Is there another, non tripline, method of retreival? Somehow the system needs to be made to stop exerting drag in-order for it to be hauled aboard, right?

randy 25D Seraph #161

Ken,

I don't believe they recommend a trip line because of potential entanglement issues, plus the small cones apparently make it retreviable as is without too much difficulty. Try reading the entire articles on the series drouge site, somewhere in there it discusses it. One reason I like my Gale Rider no trip line needed. My Para Anchor requires one and a float.

Would it be possible to fit a trip line to the series drogues or are they bi-directional?

Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC

TomCambria@fastpop.net