We have seacock probs on our CD25 too. The stbd cockpit drain cock is quite hard to operate and has a tiny but constant leak from the shaft seal. It just started this week. The port cock doesn't shut off completely... not a prob as long as the hoses are connected. I'm not gonna mess with the old ones as I feel gate valves are far inferior to ball valves for a lot of uses. I'll probably just go under the boat at the slip and use an automotive style rubber "freeze plug" to block the thru hull, go back up and swap out with the new ball valve. Go back under pull the "freeze plug" and be done. Repairing and lapping old fashioned valves when bronze and stainless ball valves are pretty cheap seems like a waste of time. Plumbing supply house can get ball valves with NPT on one end and NST on the other for about 60% or less the price as marine suppliers.
Any one see any major flaws in my thinking?? Purists restrain yourselves, if possible. alan
alangmXXXX@mail.swbell.net
Seacock plan....
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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chuck yahrlng
Re: Seacock plan....
If your stock, tapered Spartan seacocks valves are like mine, I see a couple of problems:Alan/Anne wrote: We have seacock probs on our CD25 too. The stbd cockpit drain cock is quite hard to operate and has a tiny but constant leak from the shaft seal. It just started this week. The port cock doesn't shut off completely... not a prob as long as the hoses are connected. I'm not gonna mess with the old ones as I feel gate valves are far inferior to ball valves for a lot of uses. I'll probably just go under the boat at the slip and use an automotive style rubber "freeze plug" to block the thru hull, go back up and swap out with the new ball valve. Go back under pull the "freeze plug" and be done. Repairing and lapping old fashioned valves when bronze and stainless ball valves are pretty cheap seems like a waste of time. Plumbing supply house can get ball valves with NPT on one end and NST on the other for about 60% or less the price as marine suppliers.
Any one see any major flaws in my thinking?? Purists restrain yourselves, if possible. alan
1: The base of the valve casting has a flange and is bolted though the hull, so there's nothing to spin off and replace. Maybe yours are different.
2: Even if yours are not through-bolted, ABYC recommends they should be. Otherwise, you can snap off the valve and nipple, leaving you with a serious problem. (this came from my surveyor)
3. Based on what I read in a Practical Sailor review, the quality of the castings AND the chromium plating on the balls (critical for salt water applications) varies between domestic plumbing valves and so-called marine grade. The gist of the arctical was that a few low-end boat manufacturers installed some off-spec valves and a few owners had serious problems. IMHO, you need to lube and "work" any valve regularly, regardless of style and quality, and if you do so diligently probably any valve will do.
I put some high-viscosity silicone grease on my plugs, and they don't leak or stick. I'm not a purist, but the above are facts I got from experienced folks.
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Matt Cawthorne
Re: Seacock plan....
Allen/Anne,
Some older CD's had true gate valves and not the tapered drum models made by Spartan. The way the spartan valves are installed on my CD is with three threaded fasteners. The main one is the mushroom headed through hull fitting, but two other screws are passed through the hull next to the through hull fitting. You can take the nuts off of the screws from inside the hull, but they will still keep you from spinning the seacock off of the through hull fitting. The only way to remove the through hull is to remove the nuts from the inside and then go and unscrew the through hull from the outside. If that sounds easy to you just remember that the through hulls are installed with 3M 5200. I let one seacock freeze one winter by leaving it closed with fresh water inside. With the boat out of the water and the correct tools in hand it took 6 man-hours to replace the seacock. If you have the tapered drum type of seackock it might take much less time in the near term just to re-lap the existing units. Use the search feature of this web page to find lots of helpful hints.
If you have the older gate valves I do not know how they are installed or how to seal them. If you have them check out another cape dory with the drum type. You may wish to switch to them even though they are more work to maintian.
The through hull fittings on my '82 CD have protrusions on the inside of the fitting on the end on the outside of the hull. They are used to grab the throuh hull for installation and removal. It would make it tough to seal them from the outside.
I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND PULLING THE BOAT OUT OF THE WATER BEFORE REMOVING THE SEACOCK. Things have a habbit of going wrong in the worst possible way and a 1.5 inch hole can let in more water than your bilge pump can remove. I suspect that it could even let in more water than a scared man with a bucket could remove.
I agree that the seacocks are kind of a pain to maintain, but consider what these seacocks mean to the purist who might be buying your boat someday.
I hate seacock maintenance too.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
Some older CD's had true gate valves and not the tapered drum models made by Spartan. The way the spartan valves are installed on my CD is with three threaded fasteners. The main one is the mushroom headed through hull fitting, but two other screws are passed through the hull next to the through hull fitting. You can take the nuts off of the screws from inside the hull, but they will still keep you from spinning the seacock off of the through hull fitting. The only way to remove the through hull is to remove the nuts from the inside and then go and unscrew the through hull from the outside. If that sounds easy to you just remember that the through hulls are installed with 3M 5200. I let one seacock freeze one winter by leaving it closed with fresh water inside. With the boat out of the water and the correct tools in hand it took 6 man-hours to replace the seacock. If you have the tapered drum type of seackock it might take much less time in the near term just to re-lap the existing units. Use the search feature of this web page to find lots of helpful hints.
If you have the older gate valves I do not know how they are installed or how to seal them. If you have them check out another cape dory with the drum type. You may wish to switch to them even though they are more work to maintian.
The through hull fittings on my '82 CD have protrusions on the inside of the fitting on the end on the outside of the hull. They are used to grab the throuh hull for installation and removal. It would make it tough to seal them from the outside.
I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND PULLING THE BOAT OUT OF THE WATER BEFORE REMOVING THE SEACOCK. Things have a habbit of going wrong in the worst possible way and a 1.5 inch hole can let in more water than your bilge pump can remove. I suspect that it could even let in more water than a scared man with a bucket could remove.
I agree that the seacocks are kind of a pain to maintain, but consider what these seacocks mean to the purist who might be buying your boat someday.
I hate seacock maintenance too.
Matt
Alan/Anne wrote: We have seacock probs on our CD25 too. The stbd cockpit drain cock is quite hard to operate and has a tiny but constant leak from the shaft seal. It just started this week. The port cock doesn't shut off completely... not a prob as long as the hoses are connected. I'm not gonna mess with the old ones as I feel gate valves are far inferior to ball valves for a lot of uses. I'll probably just go under the boat at the slip and use an automotive style rubber "freeze plug" to block the thru hull, go back up and swap out with the new ball valve. Go back under pull the "freeze plug" and be done. Repairing and lapping old fashioned valves when bronze and stainless ball valves are pretty cheap seems like a waste of time. Plumbing supply house can get ball valves with NPT on one end and NST on the other for about 60% or less the price as marine suppliers.
Any one see any major flaws in my thinking?? Purists restrain yourselves, if possible. alan
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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Alan/Anne
Re: Seacock plan....
I appreciate the comments... a lot. Our CD25 is #148, mfg in 1974 ,has true gate valves that are simply screwed on the end of the thru hull fitting. The valves I'm thinking of using are either stainless or brass bodied with unplated highly polished stainless balls and teflon <looks like> sealing surfaces. These are most often used in very flammable material or hot acid piping systems <hydroflouric> in refineries or chemical plants. In case of emergencies we have wood plugs tied to each thru hull in the boat. I can also drag a 110V pump from the shop ready at hand. Anyhow.... that is next weeks project and I may rethink the whole thing by then. But the speculation is fun. The rubber plugs work too as they are smaller then the hole and a screw type expander tightens up the rubber in spite of the tightening lugs.
And not to forget the purists.... When upgrading I always save the "vintage" parts. It just warms my heart to give a real Restorer the last of any special doodad part left in captivity.
alan
CD25 "Hunky Dory"
Hull #148
Allen/Anne,
And not to forget the purists.... When upgrading I always save the "vintage" parts. It just warms my heart to give a real Restorer the last of any special doodad part left in captivity.
alan
CD25 "Hunky Dory"
Hull #148
Allen/Anne,
Matt Cawthorne wrote: Some older CD's had true gate valves and not the tapered drum models made by Spartan. The way the spartan valves are installed on my CD is with three threaded fasteners. The main one is the mushroom headed through hull fitting, but two other screws are passed through the hull next to the through hull fitting. You can take the nuts off of the screws from inside the hull, but they will still keep you from spinning the seacock off of the through hull fitting. The only way to remove the through hull is to remove the nuts from the inside and then go and unscrew the through hull from the outside. If that sounds easy to you just remember that the through hulls are installed with 3M 5200. I let one seacock freeze one winter by leaving it closed with fresh water inside. With the boat out of the water and the correct tools in hand it took 6 man-hours to replace the seacock. If you have the tapered drum type of seackock it might take much less time in the near term just to re-lap the existing units. Use the search feature of this web page to find lots of helpful hints.
If you have the older gate valves I do not know how they are installed or how to seal them. If you have them check out another cape dory with the drum type. You may wish to switch to them even though they are more work to maintian.
The through hull fittings on my '82 CD have protrusions on the inside of the fitting on the end on the outside of the hull. They are used to grab the throuh hull for installation and removal. It would make it tough to seal them from the outside.
I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND PULLING THE BOAT OUT OF THE WATER BEFORE REMOVING THE SEACOCK. Things have a habbit of going wrong in the worst possible way and a 1.5 inch hole can let in more water than your bilge pump can remove. I suspect that it could even let in more water than a scared man with a bucket could remove.
I agree that the seacocks are kind of a pain to maintain, but consider what these seacocks mean to the purist who might be buying your boat someday.
I hate seacock maintenance too.
Matt
Alan/Anne wrote: We have seacock probs on our CD25 too. The stbd cockpit drain cock is quite hard to operate and has a tiny but constant leak from the shaft seal. It just started this week. The port cock doesn't shut off completely... not a prob as long as the hoses are connected. I'm not gonna mess with the old ones as I feel gate valves are far inferior to ball valves for a lot of uses. I'll probably just go under the boat at the slip and use an automotive style rubber "freeze plug" to block the thru hull, go back up and swap out with the new ball valve. Go back under pull the "freeze plug" and be done. Repairing and lapping old fashioned valves when bronze and stainless ball valves are pretty cheap seems like a waste of time. Plumbing supply house can get ball valves with NPT on one end and NST on the other for about 60% or less the price as marine suppliers.
Any one see any major flaws in my thinking?? Purists restrain yourselves, if possible. alan
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Bill Smith
Re: Seacock plan....
I recently became the owner of a 1973 CD 25. One of the first things to go was the gate valves. West marine sells some great ball valves made of brass and stainless steel. My question on the cockpit drain valves is why do they run down thru the cabin. If they are left open in the winter to allow the cockpit to drain there is achance they could freeze and crack sinking the boat. If they are closed then the cocpit will fill. Has any one added drains at the aft of the cocpit?
If so how do you get under the cockpit to install them?
OKEY DORY
Hull # 32
RWSmth @ AOL.com
If so how do you get under the cockpit to install them?
OKEY DORY
Hull # 32
RWSmth @ AOL.com
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Lyn Heiges
Re: Seacock plan....
Bill,
I have to say that I like seacocks and especially the Spartan variety.
Now, you say leaving the valves open on the cockpit drains for the winter and the danger of the boat sinking. I deduce that you leave the boat in the water, probably with and "Ice-Eater" or bubbler system all winter. I have done that for fifteen (15) winters in a river off the Chesapeake Bay with no problems. Historically, I have put a cheap (?) plastic tarp over the mainsail boom and cut a slit in the aft end to get it past the topping lift and backstay thus, generally covering the cockpit on my CD27. Only when it real blew, would snow get into the cockpit. There were times when the snow came before the tarp was installed and the snow would be in the cockpit. I would brush or shovel it out as necessary, but no freezing problems with the seacocks. Could they freeze, crack, split, then sink the boat? Of course! Likelyhood? Nil if your water is liquid where the boat lies. If you place the boat on land, BE SURE to leave them open or you probably WILL have a problem!
Warmest Regards from St. Pete Beach, Florida (where I DON'T winterize!),
Lyn Heiges
CD27 GUILLEMOT
CD28 MOON CHILD
lheiges@compuserve.com
I have to say that I like seacocks and especially the Spartan variety.
Now, you say leaving the valves open on the cockpit drains for the winter and the danger of the boat sinking. I deduce that you leave the boat in the water, probably with and "Ice-Eater" or bubbler system all winter. I have done that for fifteen (15) winters in a river off the Chesapeake Bay with no problems. Historically, I have put a cheap (?) plastic tarp over the mainsail boom and cut a slit in the aft end to get it past the topping lift and backstay thus, generally covering the cockpit on my CD27. Only when it real blew, would snow get into the cockpit. There were times when the snow came before the tarp was installed and the snow would be in the cockpit. I would brush or shovel it out as necessary, but no freezing problems with the seacocks. Could they freeze, crack, split, then sink the boat? Of course! Likelyhood? Nil if your water is liquid where the boat lies. If you place the boat on land, BE SURE to leave them open or you probably WILL have a problem!
Warmest Regards from St. Pete Beach, Florida (where I DON'T winterize!),
Lyn Heiges
CD27 GUILLEMOT
CD28 MOON CHILD
Bill Smith wrote: I recently became the owner of a 1973 CD 25. One of the first things to go was the gate valves. West marine sells some great ball valves made of brass and stainless steel. My question on the cockpit drain valves is why do they run down thru the cabin. If they are left open in the winter to allow the cockpit to drain there is achance they could freeze and crack sinking the boat. If they are closed then the cocpit will fill. Has any one added drains at the aft of the cocpit?
If so how do you get under the cockpit to install them?
OKEY DORY
Hull # 32
lheiges@compuserve.com