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Does anyone have any experience with the Dutchman sail stowage system?
Our new boat has a very nice (but old) Hood main - very decent shape but not stiff - is it worth considering a Dutchman system, instead of installing lazy jacks? It's NOT a fully battened main, and she hauls and drops very fast, slides are excellent:) And it doesn't seem like a very big deal to modify the main and set up the lines to the backstay....I think.....
I know some swear by the Dutchman system, and some swear at 'em! But I don't want to go to the expense of the Doyle system, or any of the windowshade expensive systems -
Loonsong came to me with a Dutchman on the main, but I have not sailed her with that rigged yet. What I hear is that sailors love 'em and riggers hate 'em. Only because they can be tedious to get set up properly. I do believe that once installed, it's not that bad to set up each spring upon commissioning. I have not gained that first-hand experience yet. The advantages: less windage than lazy jacks, no issues regarding catching battens on the lazy jacks. Disadvantages: higher cost than lazy jacks, need to modify sail cover to add zippers to accommodate the vertical monofilament.
I'll be interested in reading opinions of those more experienced with Dutchmen!!
Does anyone have any experience with the Dutchman sail stowage system?
Our new boat has a very nice (but old) Hood main - very decent shape but not stiff - is it worth considering a Dutchman system, instead of installing lazy jacks? It's NOT a fully battened main, and she hauls and drops very fast, slides are excellent:) And it doesn't seem like a very big deal to modify the main and set up the lines to the backstay....I think.....
I know some swear by the Dutchman system, and some swear at 'em! But I don't want to go to the expense of the Doyle system, or any of the windowshade expensive systems -
We have had the Dutchman system on two of our boats; our current CD36 and our previous CD30. It worked great on our CD30 and works o.k. on our CD36 (still better then lazy jacks). The differences between the two boats is that the CD30 had the Dutchman installed along with a brand new full batten Main. The CD36 has standard battens and the sail was a couple of years old when we installed the Dutchman. The optimum situation is to have a brand new sail with full battens at the time you install the Dutchman. You will have to "train" the sail for the first season - as you lower it down you will need to help the flakes fall correctly. Once the sail developes a "memory" it will fall perfectly on it's own. The full battens also help to keep the sail from sort of bunching up on top of the boom.
The Dutchman will still work o.k. on a partial batten sail that's not more then a couple of seasons old, as long as the sail is still pretty stiff and can "learn" how to fall correctly. You could go ahead and install the Dutchman on your current Main and then just transfere it over when you upgrade to a new Main sail, but I would be concerened that you might develope a negative bias if it doesn't perform well and I can assure you that under the right circumstances it works very well. When sailing shorthanded, anything that helps make it easier for one person to do is a benefit. When my wife is dropping the main, it's not a big deal when nearly 500sqft of material comes whooshing down on top of the boom - it just neatly stacks up and is captured by the monofilament.
Yves,
My CD-36 came with the dutchman system installed. It also came with sails made from unfilled dacron. The sails were not, and have not become 'trained'. The sails are 20 years old now. I re-stiched them a few years back and they are holding up fine, but the two areas that were damaged and needed the cloth replaced were where the dutchman lines chafe them above the last grommet. You need to let the topping lift very slack for this not to happen. The system works reasonably well with a little guidance from a human provided you are pointed dead into the wind. If the wind is a little off to one side the sail just ends up in a pile beside the boom. One way to make it work a little better is to tighten the dutchman lines. The drawback to this is the chafe issue, and the fact that the lines hum while the breeze is blowing. Every year a couple of the grommets/disks break free, but the folks at Dutchman can be talked out of a couple of disks at the boat show. I do not get quite the performance that Pat does, but then again, I have not removed and replaced it either.
My friend Tom had a Dutchman system installed with his new North Sails
main on his CD30K. We both think it's great. It takes a while before
the dacron sailcloth gets a "memory" and folds correctly on its own.
The sails ride down two nylon monofilament lines, which are very
unobtrusive. A very nice system.
-Rich Reynolds
Gunner's Mate
CD30K Tanqueray
Glen Cove, NY
Parfait sports a Dutchman system which seems to have been there for many years. I can't say the the mainsail is "trained," but having the sail fall anywhere close to the boom is very handy when doing a quick douse; a few ties keep everything in place until the sail can be dealt with at a leisurely pace.
If we didn't have the Dutchman, we'd be doing a search for one or something similar.
Does anyone have any experience with the Dutchman sail stowage system?
Our new boat has a very nice (but old) Hood main - very decent shape but not stiff - is it worth considering a Dutchman system, instead of installing lazy jacks? It's NOT a fully battened main, and she hauls and drops very fast, slides are excellent:) And it doesn't seem like a very big deal to modify the main and set up the lines to the backstay....I think.....
I know some swear by the Dutchman system, and some swear at 'em! But I don't want to go to the expense of the Doyle system, or any of the windowshade expensive systems -
MANY THANKS for all the really neat responses. Gives me much to think about!!! Certainly it will be "to do" with a new main - not sure about using it with the old main. Will see!!
When we were buying our new Main from Doyle, we asked about their "stack pack" lazy jack system since we were familiar with its benefits from BVI chartering. They talked us out of it, recomending the Dutchman instead.
As they informed us, and as others have mentioned in this thread, it takes a bit for the sail to develop the "memory" of the properly stacked shape. It didn't take too long, but I can see how the comments of it being trickier on an old sail being true; the new main was very "crisp" to accept being taught.
I'm very protective of this memory issue, so at the end of the season we remove the sail by lifting it folded, as is, onto the dock, and then folding it lengthwise from there. It really doesn't make rigging that much harder - the only real difference is feeding the two monofiliment lines through and crimping them in their holders. We mark the line with a dab of paint or a marker to their correct length so we know exactly where to tighten them. I'd say it only adds about 15-20 minutes to the rigging.
As far as use, it is very helpful. Our main is not full battened, and it still works very well. The key is to be headed completely into the wind. After that you just have to trust it - it sometimes looks like it's coming down a mess, but once it is down it usually takes just a couple pulls of the ends towards the aft of the boat to straighten it, and then it will be beautifully flaked.
I've been doing much of my sailing single handed of late and can't imagine doing so without having the Dutchman.
Just to add my 2 cents. Magdalena came with a dutchman in the original sails and it worked so great that I when I had new sails done 2 years ago I sprung for the Dutchman. As long as the design layout is good for where the fairleads go in the sail, where the top fairleads are, and where the control lines are between the mast (which acts as another fairlead column) and the clew, then the system works extremely well.
I have dropped sail downwind and 20-30 degrees off the wind and the sail furls fine. When I got the main, it spent a winter folded correctly for it to furl correctly when on the boat. Anyone considering a new main and dutchman should definitely help the memory out by storing it as it will furl.
Oh yes, main is full battened, but no cars; the battens fold ok with just slides.
Bob
I got a Dutchman system when I bought new sails a few years ago. Since I single hand something like this is critical. Combined with heaving to this is the greatest for dropping or hoisting sails. The main folds about 90% perfect each time. Sure beats having it flop all over the deck and into the ocean like it used to.
It should be pruchased with a new main for optimum results. My main is fully battened which helps. All the reasons stated by others and comments apply to my experience. Often I have to take the main off when a hurricane is impending and the system only adds about a half hour to the replacing process. I mark the monofiliment lines before taking it down.
Thanks for the input! I'm just wondering if I should have the system installed on my main which is several years old. It's in good shape, in fact my sails were used on the new R36 demonstrator that was at the 2005 Maine Boats and Harbors Show. But they aren't fully battened. I wonder if I should just use simple lazy jacks for awhile and then get a new fully battened main with the Dutchman system in a year or so.....
Hurricanes can really change your life. After Katrina many of us are just thinking to haul the boat and take it home for hurricane season, sort of the way northerners haul their boats for the winter. It's too hot to sail in the southern summer anyway! I have my CD36 IMAGINE in my hangar now. I'm no longer doing the refit work in the heat! I've got A/C!
Years ago (in the 80s) when I was single handing a lot I used to say my personal limit for single handing was 32 feet. Now here I am 20 years older and 30 pounds heavier and seriously contemplating single handing a 36 foot cutter! I hope that with the help of a good autopilot and a newly rebuilt engine I will be OK.
Installing a dutchman on old sails is somewhat a gamble. As mentioned before the sail has to be "trained" to fold. In other words the sail takes on semi perminant creases that insure the sail flakes itself. If your sail already has a pattern to it then it may not want to flake well. The guide holes that are installed in the sail have to correspond to the fold pattern. The full battens help in keeping the leach edge folded and errant back folds from happening. Like the other posters said if you install it on an old sail you might be disappointed with an otherwise great system. Lazy Jacks are pretty much a sure thing with an old sail. The trade in my mind would be the need to tension up and down the lazy jack lines at each hoisting. With the Dutchman on my boat I do mess with the topping lift as my bimini is just high enough that the flaked main rubs on it when down. I raise the boom each time I lower the main. Having a slack topping lift is necessary for the main to trim. Checking with a rigger for a second opinion might yield some good input.
I know several people who single hand much larger boats. A friend of mine single hands a Gulfstar 50 ketch. I met another man over 65 who single hands a CaboRico 38. Size doesnt seem to matter.
We arent quite to the point of hauling for hurricane season here yet. I live on a canal and its probably the best hurricane hole in the county. So far things have worked out.
Try looking for a system called the Flake-it. It consists of two small pucks of a nylon material mounted on the side of the boom and a flexable,removeable fiberglass rod .The rods act like "wings" to keep the sail from falling off the boom when lowered.Tie off the sail to the boom and remove the rods. No lines,no chafe,no adjustments,no riggers involved.Cost: Less than $100.00 including shipping !!!
Contact Rudy Helm flakeit@gmail.com
