This is the problem I've been facing as I look for a used boat. I don't want to buy trouble, and I don't want to re-power unless the selling price is low enough (and that would be VERY low). This is why I keep coming back to the CD 26's with the outboard in a well. How nice to just lift out the old motor and drop in the nice new 4-stroke... But the 26 is not big enough displacement-wise for what I want to do. Which has led me to this thought, and please humor me here because I know it will be considered sacrilege: You know that lazarette in the stern of the 27's? I can imagine a big Honda 4 stroke under there after some design and fiberglass work. Could it even be fashioned in such a way that the motor could be turned? And think of all the storage space you gain where the diesel and tank were. The 27 is a ton bigger, which I like. I don't think it would be as do-able in a 28. I wonder if anyone has ever retrofitted a CD in this way?
Also, I think you could save the $991.17 tax by sailing on down to New Hampshire where they don't tax hardly anything.
Randy R
CD 14 #650
CT & NH
When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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John R.
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
I agree with your brothers tire analogy. Secondly, the yard is charging an installation at more than the cost of the new engine, that's outrageous in and of itself. It's not a high skilled service you are talking about, just basic labor and some supplies. There is no way on this green earth I would sink that kind of money into a 27 for the engine alone. Jim has made some excellent points but note that he has done all the work (hat's off to him) and even with his own labor he expects to spend a great deal. The difference is he has significant plans for the use of the boat and the boat has had a total upgrade when he is finsihed, it will not be a run of the mill standard CD27. Also in his estimated costs he has installed the new engine himself. You might even consider that aspect yourself. You can easily see the difference in your situation to Jim's. Everyone has to do what is best for their situation and wallet.
Perhaps instead of installing a new 20HP Yanmar you might find an engine that will fit your existing engine beds which would save a lot of work and costs.
When it comes time to sell there is a big risk on major upgrading investment recoup. A new engine would have a definite appeal to a buyer but it won't change the boat value much. The boat has a book value regardless of what a surveyor has to say and it is has the influence of the market affecting it's value as well. For every seller surveyor that estimates high there will be a buyer surveyor that will estimate low. That's why the market values are the best indicator. A vessel like Jim's would be an exception to this scenario. So to me keeping that in mind and considering the current value of the boat and the estimate of the new engine upgrade it would appear to me to be a definite NO. Having half the value of the boat tied up in the cost of an engine refit seems like an absurd proposition to me. I think you are being very savvy in making the decision to sticking with what you have. In fact if the engine had failed I would only replace it with a sound used engine of the same type. You might consider a limited rebuild on the existing engine to possibly improve on the power curve. You might consider having a couple of different highly regarded mechanics check out the engine with some testing and evaluate the results and see if you can make some power gains at an economical investment, that's what I would do.
Good luck Warren.
Perhaps instead of installing a new 20HP Yanmar you might find an engine that will fit your existing engine beds which would save a lot of work and costs.
When it comes time to sell there is a big risk on major upgrading investment recoup. A new engine would have a definite appeal to a buyer but it won't change the boat value much. The boat has a book value regardless of what a surveyor has to say and it is has the influence of the market affecting it's value as well. For every seller surveyor that estimates high there will be a buyer surveyor that will estimate low. That's why the market values are the best indicator. A vessel like Jim's would be an exception to this scenario. So to me keeping that in mind and considering the current value of the boat and the estimate of the new engine upgrade it would appear to me to be a definite NO. Having half the value of the boat tied up in the cost of an engine refit seems like an absurd proposition to me. I think you are being very savvy in making the decision to sticking with what you have. In fact if the engine had failed I would only replace it with a sound used engine of the same type. You might consider a limited rebuild on the existing engine to possibly improve on the power curve. You might consider having a couple of different highly regarded mechanics check out the engine with some testing and evaluate the results and see if you can make some power gains at an economical investment, that's what I would do.
Good luck Warren.
Warren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
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Bob Emmons
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Dear Warren,
I just recently repowered my CD30 with a new Yanmar 2GMFV,
and I too, when quoted a price had to consider whether it was really worth it. My use of Red Wing consists of daysiling in Barnegat Bay
from April to November, and the old Volvo was fine to get me out of the slip (except on a very windy day). The engine was blowing smoke,
and max'd out at 1600 rpms. I removed the injectors and had them cleaned but with no improvement. I was not about to spend much more money on this tired engine. My other use of Red Wing is coastal cruising for about a month every year. This is what justified getting a new engine. Safety and the ability to maneuver with my family aboard for vacation. There are some strong currents in the East River, Plum Gut, and Woods hole that I regularly visit and I feel much more secure knowing I now have the power if I need it. So yes it was a bit of money on a 30,000 boat, but I also plan to keep it at least another 15 years or more...
If you have any questions please email me at remmons@hamilton.k12.nj.us
Bob Emmons
CD30 Red Wing
remmons@hamilton.k12.nj.us
I just recently repowered my CD30 with a new Yanmar 2GMFV,
and I too, when quoted a price had to consider whether it was really worth it. My use of Red Wing consists of daysiling in Barnegat Bay
from April to November, and the old Volvo was fine to get me out of the slip (except on a very windy day). The engine was blowing smoke,
and max'd out at 1600 rpms. I removed the injectors and had them cleaned but with no improvement. I was not about to spend much more money on this tired engine. My other use of Red Wing is coastal cruising for about a month every year. This is what justified getting a new engine. Safety and the ability to maneuver with my family aboard for vacation. There are some strong currents in the East River, Plum Gut, and Woods hole that I regularly visit and I feel much more secure knowing I now have the power if I need it. So yes it was a bit of money on a 30,000 boat, but I also plan to keep it at least another 15 years or more...
If you have any questions please email me at remmons@hamilton.k12.nj.us
Bob Emmons
CD30 Red Wing
remmons@hamilton.k12.nj.us
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Will W.
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
When I read threads like this, it is the only time I don't mind motoring around in a cloud of smoke from the open lazarette. Replacing the old outboard will be a lot less painfull when I compare to the inboard prices.
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
willwheatley@starpower.net
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
Patrick Turner wrote: The quote sounds just a tad high (do they have to completely rebuild the engine bed?), but you still bring up a really good point and it's a question we probably all at some point have to ask ourselves as we're fixing these older boats up - "when is enought.....just too much?". It's a question that has no real universal answer unfortunately, cuz it really boils down to whatever your comfortable with.....not much help probably.
There was an article a couple of years back in Practical Sailor that compared the cost of ownership of a brand new boat and a used boat that needed upgrading. They took everything into consideration; depreciation of the new boat, costs of upgrading, repairing,maintenance, etc.. If I remember correctly the amount of unrecouped money when the boats were sold on the open market was about the same! There were benefits to both ways of doing it , but the bottom line was about the same.
Sounds like if you could sell your boat for the average going price for a CD27 and throw another $12-15k, you'd be just about in the middle of what a early/mid 1980's CD30 in good condition is going for these days. That's a really nice boat, but I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new when I say that it all just gets more expensive as you go up. Plus it sounds like you have a boat right now that you've got pretty much where you want it (if that's ever entirely possible). Is pulling the old engine out and completely rebuilding it out of the question?
If the boat you have now pretty much meets your wants and needs and you have no real desire (or the means $$) for buying and maintaining a bigger boat, then putting a little more money (maybe not $12k) into your boat to keep it that way seems reasonable, but if you feel that somewhere in the not-too-distant future you would like to try something that is a little bigger, then you might just keep this one real healthy for another season or two and reconsider.
Just my 2 cents (having spent way too much on my own boat!)
Pat Turner
CD36 "Salt Shaker"
San Francisco Bay
willwheatley@starpower.net
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Warren Kaplan
Repower Cost Breakdown (abbreviated)
Some have expressed interest in where the money is going on the proposed repower. I won't give you item by item but I'll give you the breakdown in catagories. One caveat. The Cape Dory Board has eyes looking at it from all over the country and the world (if Murray Glue is tuned in). My yard is on the North Shore of Long Island. Often called the "gold coast" for good reason. EVERYTHING costs more here so take that into account when crunching the numbers.
First, my yard's labor rate is $80.00 per hour.
The estimate for taking the old engine out and putting in the new engine is 28 hours. This does NOT include the new engine bed construction. The labor for the engine bed construction is estimated at 24 hours.
So, labor for the engine 28 hrs x $80 = 2240.00
labor for the bed is 24 hrs x $80 = 1920.00
Total Labor = $4160.00
Look at it another way. Total job quoted at $12,652.04.
If we subtract the tax of $991.17 that leaves $11,660.87.
The cost of the engine is pretty standard so if we subtract the engine cost $5750.00 that leaves $5910.87.
If we subtract the $4160.00 for labor, that leaves $1750.87 for the cost of all the rest of the parts from prop shaft to paint brushes, to hoses and thru hulls. So, the cost of parts other than the engine isn't monumental. What I mean is, even if we reused a bunch of parts it would probably only save me a few hundred dollars at most.
The big cost is in the labor AND the tax. $4160.00 + $991.17 = $5151.17. The engine costs a good chunk. The other parts in total add up, but that are made up of a $38 part here, a $100 part there and so forth. Many have to be used with the new installation. Other may not have to be used, but the savings would be relatively small. I'm sure we all choke on a thousand dollar tax bill..but go fight city hall. The big cost is always the labor and the non productive money (for the job) spent on taxes. So, here it is.
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 1980
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
First, my yard's labor rate is $80.00 per hour.
The estimate for taking the old engine out and putting in the new engine is 28 hours. This does NOT include the new engine bed construction. The labor for the engine bed construction is estimated at 24 hours.
So, labor for the engine 28 hrs x $80 = 2240.00
labor for the bed is 24 hrs x $80 = 1920.00
Total Labor = $4160.00
Look at it another way. Total job quoted at $12,652.04.
If we subtract the tax of $991.17 that leaves $11,660.87.
The cost of the engine is pretty standard so if we subtract the engine cost $5750.00 that leaves $5910.87.
If we subtract the $4160.00 for labor, that leaves $1750.87 for the cost of all the rest of the parts from prop shaft to paint brushes, to hoses and thru hulls. So, the cost of parts other than the engine isn't monumental. What I mean is, even if we reused a bunch of parts it would probably only save me a few hundred dollars at most.
The big cost is in the labor AND the tax. $4160.00 + $991.17 = $5151.17. The engine costs a good chunk. The other parts in total add up, but that are made up of a $38 part here, a $100 part there and so forth. Many have to be used with the new installation. Other may not have to be used, but the savings would be relatively small. I'm sure we all choke on a thousand dollar tax bill..but go fight city hall. The big cost is always the labor and the non productive money (for the job) spent on taxes. So, here it is.
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 1980
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
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Frank Vernet
Purchase price may be a Sunk Cost
Warren,
I think we all appreciate your dilemna. We love these boats, make trades among the many upgrades we'd like to do and sometimes stretch things a bit to "justify" expenses. Buried in my justification toolkit is the economic concept of "sunk cost".
Simply put: A "sunk" cost is a monetary or time commitment made to an endeavor which cannot be recovered regardless of future events (because the investment (in time or money) cannot be reversed). Prevailing economic theory suggests that, in general, *rational* consumers and producers should ignore sunk costs when making further investment decisions for the above stated reason. Emphasis on rational - throwing good money after bad does not qualify.
Your comment that "I'll probably stick with Sine Qua Non for a very long time" suggests to me that you do not intend to reverse your investment (sell Sine Qua Non)...therefore we can conclude that the $21K purchase investment is a sunk cost.
That said, what does it mean? It means that your decision to invest ~$12K into a new engine should be made independent of your original investment in Sinne Qua Non. The real question you must ask yourself is: "Is a new and properly installed engine worth ~$12k to Warren Kaplan and his enjoyment of Sinne Qua Non (which includes among other factors, safety and peace-of-mind)?"
Actually this is a 2-part question: 1) Is a new and properly installed engine important to WK and to his enjoyment of SQN?; and 2) is $12K+ a reasonable price for this engine and installation?
I realize economics can be extraordinarily dull, but sometimes it helps frame an issue in a new way. Hope it helps a little.
Frank Vernet
s/v Sirius
CD33 #84
Deale, MD
I think we all appreciate your dilemna. We love these boats, make trades among the many upgrades we'd like to do and sometimes stretch things a bit to "justify" expenses. Buried in my justification toolkit is the economic concept of "sunk cost".
Simply put: A "sunk" cost is a monetary or time commitment made to an endeavor which cannot be recovered regardless of future events (because the investment (in time or money) cannot be reversed). Prevailing economic theory suggests that, in general, *rational* consumers and producers should ignore sunk costs when making further investment decisions for the above stated reason. Emphasis on rational - throwing good money after bad does not qualify.
Your comment that "I'll probably stick with Sine Qua Non for a very long time" suggests to me that you do not intend to reverse your investment (sell Sine Qua Non)...therefore we can conclude that the $21K purchase investment is a sunk cost.
That said, what does it mean? It means that your decision to invest ~$12K into a new engine should be made independent of your original investment in Sinne Qua Non. The real question you must ask yourself is: "Is a new and properly installed engine worth ~$12k to Warren Kaplan and his enjoyment of Sinne Qua Non (which includes among other factors, safety and peace-of-mind)?"
Actually this is a 2-part question: 1) Is a new and properly installed engine important to WK and to his enjoyment of SQN?; and 2) is $12K+ a reasonable price for this engine and installation?
I realize economics can be extraordinarily dull, but sometimes it helps frame an issue in a new way. Hope it helps a little.
Frank Vernet
s/v Sirius
CD33 #84
Deale, MD
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Ray Worthington
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Warren: I have to add my 2 cents since I went through this same thing last year. Halcyon is a 1982 25D which came with a Yanmar 1GM. Our tides here (St. Simons Island, Georgia) run 6 to 9 feet and the current can be brutal. After not being able to motor against it on several occasions I decided to repower. A Yanmar 2GM would fit with just four inches having to be added to the engine beds. I found a rebuilt 2GMF in Miami for $2,500 and had a local yard install it for $1,200 plus another $300 for parts, such as a Racor fuel filter. I am very pleased with the results. Do a search and I believe that you can find a suitable used engine at half or less than half the price you been quoted.Warren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
rawor@thebest.net
-
Stan W.
Beta/Kubota?
Have you priced the marinized Kubotas sold under the Beta name? These seem to be getting positive feedback and they have to be cheaper than a Yanmar. Maybe Beta could recommend an installer in your area whose labor costs would be less too. Its worth a look.
skicape@aol.com
skicape@aol.com
-
Phil
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
WarrenWarren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
I do not know how mechanical you are but you may consider removing the engine yourself and have the engine rebuilt to over size. That is have the engine bored out to oversize. A local engine rebuilder should be able to do it all for you . What you end up with is a rebuilt motor that should give you more power. The engine may not last as long as a new one but would be a lot cheaper.
Phil
water406@nbnet.nb.ca
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Don W.
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
After reading every message in this terrific thread, I wanted to reiterate a point I
think may be getting lost in the shuffle: I do not believe your only
reasonable options are to repower or sell. While I may or may not be in your shoes with my CD28,
the first thing I've done for a "power boost" is to reprop her - from 2-bladed to 3. I did the
same on an S2 30 I owned and the difference in "power", especially in reverse, was nothing short of amazing.
(If you already have a 3-bladed prop, this suggestion is useless.) Yes, I know 3-blades can decrease
"performance" by increasing drag when under sail alone. But my racing days are long over, and I really
appreciated the extra push on nasty days in the Pamlico Sound. More importantly, if
the S2 experienced any depreciation in sailing "performance" after repropping, I never noticed it.
I think Catherine made an excellent point: throwing up a small dacron sail - unless
you have to tack through a busy, narrow channel - is a lot cheaper (and more fun)
than remortgaging the house for an new, _heavier_ iron sail. Are we not sailors?
In your shoes, I'd repower only if I was going on a long cruise down the Intracoastal Waterway. And then,
I wouldn't totally discount the suggestions to repower with either the lightweight, and
reasonably priced Kubota, or even a powerful, long-shaft outboard in a well. We all seem to have this
love/hate relationship with the powerful diesels, but, lordy, the weight! Get rid of most
of that weight and you don't require nearly as much power to push her through the water.
Last, but not least in my priorities, if you want a combination of more power and the
peace of mind that comes from having a new hunk of iron down below, I'd consider a combination
of repropping (if you haven't already) and an "overhaul" of the old engine. By "overhaul", I don't really
mean "rebuild." Convince a good diesel mechanic with a good reputation that that you're willing
to pay him or her a good price for a truly thorough inspection and, well, overhaul of whatever he finds
questionable (within strict price limits). If you end up paying him just 10% of your estimate for a new Yanmar,
I think you'll be well ahead of where you might be with repowering. Farther even; put the other 90% into new sails
and a coupla weeks (months?) off work for a nice cruise. I once had a superb mechanic offer to give my
S2's Yanmar 2GMF a good work-over for $450. He told me that unless subjected to severe stress,
a lack of oil or coolant, ingestion of seawater, or some other catastrophe, many of these diesels
will last as long their skippers. (Always feeding them clean fuel and clean air helps mightily as
well.)
Purchase another used boat and, more than likely, you're purchasing a whole new set of fixes and
"enhancements."
Good luck!
Don W.
S/V Viharah
CD 28 #168
dharmawoNOSPAM@bellsouth.net
think may be getting lost in the shuffle: I do not believe your only
reasonable options are to repower or sell. While I may or may not be in your shoes with my CD28,
the first thing I've done for a "power boost" is to reprop her - from 2-bladed to 3. I did the
same on an S2 30 I owned and the difference in "power", especially in reverse, was nothing short of amazing.
(If you already have a 3-bladed prop, this suggestion is useless.) Yes, I know 3-blades can decrease
"performance" by increasing drag when under sail alone. But my racing days are long over, and I really
appreciated the extra push on nasty days in the Pamlico Sound. More importantly, if
the S2 experienced any depreciation in sailing "performance" after repropping, I never noticed it.
I think Catherine made an excellent point: throwing up a small dacron sail - unless
you have to tack through a busy, narrow channel - is a lot cheaper (and more fun)
than remortgaging the house for an new, _heavier_ iron sail. Are we not sailors?
In your shoes, I'd repower only if I was going on a long cruise down the Intracoastal Waterway. And then,
I wouldn't totally discount the suggestions to repower with either the lightweight, and
reasonably priced Kubota, or even a powerful, long-shaft outboard in a well. We all seem to have this
love/hate relationship with the powerful diesels, but, lordy, the weight! Get rid of most
of that weight and you don't require nearly as much power to push her through the water.
Last, but not least in my priorities, if you want a combination of more power and the
peace of mind that comes from having a new hunk of iron down below, I'd consider a combination
of repropping (if you haven't already) and an "overhaul" of the old engine. By "overhaul", I don't really
mean "rebuild." Convince a good diesel mechanic with a good reputation that that you're willing
to pay him or her a good price for a truly thorough inspection and, well, overhaul of whatever he finds
questionable (within strict price limits). If you end up paying him just 10% of your estimate for a new Yanmar,
I think you'll be well ahead of where you might be with repowering. Farther even; put the other 90% into new sails
and a coupla weeks (months?) off work for a nice cruise. I once had a superb mechanic offer to give my
S2's Yanmar 2GMF a good work-over for $450. He told me that unless subjected to severe stress,
a lack of oil or coolant, ingestion of seawater, or some other catastrophe, many of these diesels
will last as long their skippers. (Always feeding them clean fuel and clean air helps mightily as
well.)
Purchase another used boat and, more than likely, you're purchasing a whole new set of fixes and
"enhancements."
Good luck!
Don W.
S/V Viharah
CD 28 #168
dharmawoNOSPAM@bellsouth.net
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Warren Kaplan
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
To Don, Catherine and all the others that have responded;
Thank you all for all the views and "angles" on this you have given me.
A couple of things. My boat has a 3 bladed prop. Catherine, I do motor sail when necessary. It does make a difference. I also learned, the hard way, this year to keep those damn barnacles off the prop. New more powerful engine or old tired one, those barnacles sap the effective strength of both. I'll hire a diver once a month to go down and do the prop and the bottom.
Everyone has touched in one way or another on the real question. Am I going to keep my CD27 for a long time or am I going to move up? I think the sailing season of 2003 will tell me that. If I get the time to take long cruises...spend a few weeks on the CDSOA Rendezvous for instance.. then I think I would probably want a little more boat than I have. In that case, I would definitely NOT repower SQN. But if my sailing life (sigh!) is destined to be limited to daysailing with the occasional overnight or weekend cruise, then my CD27 with a little more attention to the cabin and galley will be just perfect. In that case I will definitely repower. As for now, I pretty much have decided to stick with the YSM8 and have my mechanic really give it a good going over so its ready for next season. My sailing usually consists of my wife Julie and me, and we don't need a lot of room or amenities for short duration sailing trips. Any more suggestions are welcome. I posted the breakdown of the costs of the repower on this board "Costs of Repower (abbreviated). You might want to take a look and see how the costs, especially labor, $80/hr here on Long Island NY, compares with your area. I'd be interested in what the numbers run in different parts of the country.
Thanks again to all,
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
Thank you all for all the views and "angles" on this you have given me.
A couple of things. My boat has a 3 bladed prop. Catherine, I do motor sail when necessary. It does make a difference. I also learned, the hard way, this year to keep those damn barnacles off the prop. New more powerful engine or old tired one, those barnacles sap the effective strength of both. I'll hire a diver once a month to go down and do the prop and the bottom.
Everyone has touched in one way or another on the real question. Am I going to keep my CD27 for a long time or am I going to move up? I think the sailing season of 2003 will tell me that. If I get the time to take long cruises...spend a few weeks on the CDSOA Rendezvous for instance.. then I think I would probably want a little more boat than I have. In that case, I would definitely NOT repower SQN. But if my sailing life (sigh!) is destined to be limited to daysailing with the occasional overnight or weekend cruise, then my CD27 with a little more attention to the cabin and galley will be just perfect. In that case I will definitely repower. As for now, I pretty much have decided to stick with the YSM8 and have my mechanic really give it a good going over so its ready for next season. My sailing usually consists of my wife Julie and me, and we don't need a lot of room or amenities for short duration sailing trips. Any more suggestions are welcome. I posted the breakdown of the costs of the repower on this board "Costs of Repower (abbreviated). You might want to take a look and see how the costs, especially labor, $80/hr here on Long Island NY, compares with your area. I'd be interested in what the numbers run in different parts of the country.
Thanks again to all,
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
-
wayne grenier
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
research-research -research-you have established the price for worst case scenario-but since your engine is still running-take your time.It would be worth it to have an honest independent diesel mechanic survey the motor and do a compression check etc. When you say its tired-it could just need a "top end " rebuild-rings and valves-and maybe only a cylnder hone as opposed to being bored out and replacing the pistons-if you can have the engine rebuilt-or find an exact replacement-you will save yourself tons of money-plus its not that hard to r and r an inboard engine-mine has gone out and in at leaast 3 times in 14 years-I traded in an MD2B which kept eating push rods and was running on 1 cylnder for an MD 11 which was an exact replacement. I did the in 1989 threough Dipietro Kay for $3,500 and this motor has run perfectly ever since. Someone out there has or can rebuild your motor but you need an honest mechanic that the hard part. If you think you boat is underpowered before I bought my CD 28 I had an Eastwind 25' which is a beautiful canadian full keel boat but it had an 8h.p. one cylnder gas flat head Palmer inboard that was only good for getting in and out of the harbor. Thank god the boat handled as it did. I was at Mystic Seaport several weeks ago and there in the museum was a larger one cylnder Palmer on display as an antique!but anyway-good luck and take your time making a decision-start soaking the coupling and motor mount bolts with penetrating oil now!Warren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
greneir@localnet.com
-
Al Smith
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Alwayne grenier wrote: I was thinking about repowering just because of the age of my boat (84 CD 33), and was given a quote of 10K complete for a replacement for my 27hp Universal. This is from a mechanic I really trust. Fortunately,like you, I did not have to do it. But 12K sounds high to me.
saylr@adelphia.net
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Larry DeMers
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Warren,
Wow, nice long thread!! Well, my vote is to do a wet compression test first and foremost. This will tell you whether there is any gain likely with a rebuild..partial or full.
$12.5k seems about $2500 too much to me also, but we are a ways apart in home ports. Since the engine price is not a variable, the only thing you have to work with is the installation.
Changing seacocks..why? Is there no way to make the existing seacock work? I have removed seacocks twice in two years now, and it is not hard to do yourself. I would look at chopping down the "extras" and duplicate work if any (like rerunning fuel lines etc). The only thing that I would have someone else do is the bed for the engine and then setting and aligning the engine. The rest you can do yourself, or with help when needed. Maybe by doing this you can get that labor cut in half. Your time would be worth $80/hour, so anything you do has real return to you...if you can do the job satisfactorily. (you can too..I know you and how careful you are).
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 Now on the hard, awaiting spring commissioning
demers@sgi.com
Wow, nice long thread!! Well, my vote is to do a wet compression test first and foremost. This will tell you whether there is any gain likely with a rebuild..partial or full.
$12.5k seems about $2500 too much to me also, but we are a ways apart in home ports. Since the engine price is not a variable, the only thing you have to work with is the installation.
Changing seacocks..why? Is there no way to make the existing seacock work? I have removed seacocks twice in two years now, and it is not hard to do yourself. I would look at chopping down the "extras" and duplicate work if any (like rerunning fuel lines etc). The only thing that I would have someone else do is the bed for the engine and then setting and aligning the engine. The rest you can do yourself, or with help when needed. Maybe by doing this you can get that labor cut in half. Your time would be worth $80/hour, so anything you do has real return to you...if you can do the job satisfactorily. (you can too..I know you and how careful you are).
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 Now on the hard, awaiting spring commissioning
Warren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
demers@sgi.com
-
Mark Yashinsky
Questions
As has been stated, why only one quote??? And why only L.I.??? What about Conn., out past Bridgeport???
Have you done your own research into what you think needs to be changed??? Have you gotten the engine diagram of the Yanmar (check their site) and done measurements??? Do teh beds need to be changed??? Second Chance has 1.5" square steel channel between the 2GM20F motor mounts and the beds.
As also asked, have you questioned some of the charges??? Why cannot the current shaft and prop be used (ok, change the cutlass bearing while the work is being done)??? Why does the old seawater thruhull NEED to be removed and glassed in (S.C. still has the old (smaller) thruhull that is wired close). Does the exhaust need to be changed??? Tyvek suits??? If the beds really dont need to be changed, then why???
Do you get any credit from the stuff being removed from the boat, engine, shaft, transmission, etc??? All this sounds like its could be worth a couple a dollars.
Sounds like the yard is doing a COMPLETE job and making everything new. Their reputation or their profit???
As for doing it, need to think what you are doing w/ the boat and for how long. How often do you get into situations that the extra power, from a NEW engine, would help keep the blood pressure down. What dollar figure do you assign to that??? And it always been stated, you dont buy a boat to make money.
Have you done your own research into what you think needs to be changed??? Have you gotten the engine diagram of the Yanmar (check their site) and done measurements??? Do teh beds need to be changed??? Second Chance has 1.5" square steel channel between the 2GM20F motor mounts and the beds.
As also asked, have you questioned some of the charges??? Why cannot the current shaft and prop be used (ok, change the cutlass bearing while the work is being done)??? Why does the old seawater thruhull NEED to be removed and glassed in (S.C. still has the old (smaller) thruhull that is wired close). Does the exhaust need to be changed??? Tyvek suits??? If the beds really dont need to be changed, then why???
Do you get any credit from the stuff being removed from the boat, engine, shaft, transmission, etc??? All this sounds like its could be worth a couple a dollars.
Sounds like the yard is doing a COMPLETE job and making everything new. Their reputation or their profit???
As for doing it, need to think what you are doing w/ the boat and for how long. How often do you get into situations that the extra power, from a NEW engine, would help keep the blood pressure down. What dollar figure do you assign to that??? And it always been stated, you dont buy a boat to make money.