deck repairs - gelcoat or paint

[john hoft-march]

I'm getting ready to make some repairs to my foredeck (split in the fiberglass near the port side chain plate, presumably caused by wet core which froze & expanded last winter, and a big lump off the starboard side of the cabin top, possibly an old repair but looking un-watertight). I am planning on cutting out the bad bits and either drying the core or replacing with end-grain cedar, then filling in with fiberglass & epoxy, then fairing back to deck level and restoring the non-skid.

My questions are 1) what to fair with? I have some cabosil from another project, will that do to mix with epoxy or should I get some of the West fairing stuff?. and 2) how can I tell if the non-skid is paint or gel-coat? I assume I want to use whichever it is already, since I'm not doing the whole deck. Its the standard CD light blue non-skid, sort of a sandpapery surface.

Thanks in advance.

John



john.hoft-march@appleton.org

[Glen Snader]

John:

Why would you use end grain cedar? Cedar is an oily wood and I would be concerned that the resion would not penetrate the wood. If this happens you will not receive a good bond. We go back with balsa. I have posted on the site before the reasons for this as well as how to finish.

Good luck.
Glen Snader



glen@hobbymarine.com

[john hoft-march]

John:

Why would you use end grain cedar? Cedar is an oily wood and I would be concerned that the resion would not penetrate the wood. If this happens you will not receive a good bond. We go back with balsa. I have posted on the site before the reasons for this as well as how to finish.

Good luck.
Glen Snader

I only propose cedar as it was my understanding that that was the replacement wood recommended by many on this site as well as by West Systems. Have I confused materials?

Thanks. John



john.hoft-march@appleton.org

[Tom]

I haven't done it, but my understanding is that cedar is naturally rot resistant because of the oil content. It's a fairly porous wood especially on the end grain and thus accepts resin pretty well. Also light weight, readily available, and relatively cheap.

John:

Why would you use end grain cedar? Cedar is an oily wood and I would be concerned that the resion would not penetrate the wood. If this happens you will not receive a good bond. We go back with balsa. I have posted on the site before the reasons for this as well as how to finish.

Good luck.
Glen Snader

I only propose cedar as it was my understanding that that was the replacement wood recommended by many on this site as well as by West Systems. Have I confused materials?

Thanks. John

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[mark slifko]

I replaced the stern deck on my daughter's 1971 Typhoon.
The core was rotted.
I used a screwdriver and "sounded" the deck and marked the
hollow sounding area.
I used a rotozip set at just the fiberglass skin depth and
removes the top fiberglass skin that I marked as hollow.
At this point I could see the bad core.
I removed the bad wood (3/8).
I purchased 3/8 plywood.
I did not care about rot resistant because if the repair is
done right, no water will get to the core.
I used west system epoxy (great product).
Cut plywood to fit in the cut out area. I made a template out
of paper and then cut the wood with a saber saw.
Epoxied the plywood to the fiberglass underskin.
Just follow the directions on the west systems and
use the high density filler mixed to peanut butter consistency.
Then put 3-4 layers of fiberglass and epoxy over plywood.
Use vibration hand-sanded to feather.
Repeat this process untill smooth finish, this takes time,
patience and do not hurry.
We used Interlux two part topside paint (another great product).
Used brush to apply (beautiful finish).
We than applied a non-skid additive to the top-side paint.
We masked off the areas we wanted the smooth finish and brushed
on the non-skid.
Came out great!
We plan on refinishing the remainder of the deck (some other
soft spots) next year!
Looks like a factory finish, my daughter is delighted with this
beautiful classic boat!
Good luck,
Mark Slifko

I'm getting ready to make some repairs to my foredeck (split in the fiberglass near the port side chain plate, presumably caused by wet core which froze & expanded last winter, and a big lump off the starboard side of the cabin top, possibly an old repair but looking un-watertight). I am planning on cutting out the bad bits and either drying the core or replacing with end-grain cedar, then filling in with fiberglass & epoxy, then fairing back to deck level and restoring the non-skid.

My questions are 1) what to fair with? I have some cabosil from another project, will that do to mix with epoxy or should I get some of the West fairing stuff?. and 2) how can I tell if the non-skid is paint or gel-coat? I assume I want to use whichever it is already, since I'm not doing the whole deck. Its the standard CD light blue non-skid, sort of a sandpapery surface.

Thanks in advance.

John

mcslifko@starpower.net

[JimL]

Good evening, John. I've added my website to this post (I have #21). See what you think of my non-skid color. It's Petit Easypoxy, mixed 5 parts Bimini Blue to 1 part Semi-Gloss White. The semi-gloss keeps it from looking so much like paint, and the mix ratio is enough "bluer" than original to see where you've painted. If you wan't it lighter, try 4 parts blue to 2 parts white. They have a non-skid additive you can add. I brushed this paint on, and it came out great. Seems to hold up well, also.

Hope that helps you, at least on the color.



leinfam@earthlink.net

[JimL]

I had to repair some gelcoat, in the white areas, on deck. If you get your area ready, then cut wax paper to slightly oversize, you can paint down the gelcoat with a brush. After you've got it to the level you want, apply the wax paper and smooth with a soft rubber squeegee. Tape down the edges of the wax paper and let it cure. The wax paper keeps the oxygen out, so the gelcoat will set up hard (won't remain tacky) without adding styrene wax. I only had to lightly wet sand the edges to get it looking nice. Use the waxpaper trick for fixing chips in the corners of lids and seats. You'll get perfect shape and it cures fine.

[Glen Snader]

ROT RESISTANT? Why would this come into play for a core on a fiberglass boat? This is where my thinking goes away from the norm. Here's why.

By design, core material is NOT to get wet. Balsa, the most used core material and the one with the longest record of use in production glass work is naturaly resistant to rot. Also end grain (reguardless of the type of wood) will move water with the grain. This prevents (slows) the spreed of moisture into the wood. That is why end grain is used as a core material.

It seams to me that most boatbuilders/repair yards/boat owner's fail to realize the problem is not with the type of core used but the water that enters the core. If you use balse/PVC/foam/ceader/plywood as a core material, it will fail if water enters the core. Boat owner's think that if the core is rot resistant (ceader/PVC/foam/and yes balsa) there is a sense of permanance. If water enters any of these cores there will be a problem. Every time I see someone mount something on there boat with silicone I know that there will be a core problem in the future. I am amazed at how many outboard motors are mounted on transoms that are sealed with silicone. Is there any wonder why transoms rot? It is not a core problem but a installation problem.

How long will the seal of a properly sealed/bedded peice of hardware last? I do not know. Most seals that are not under vibration or a side load should last 10-15+ years. If it is under a load or takes an impact, the seal might only last 5-10 years. REGUARDLESS OF THE CORE, when water enters there will be a problem. If the water freezes, the problem will get worse very quickly. Balsa core has taken a hit with boat owner's. Core problems are more involved then space alows.

Good luck
Glen Snader
CD-10
Future 300MS



glen@hobbymarine.com

[Tom]

Really? Do they actually claim this? I had mushy places all over my balsa cored deck when I bought my CD. It's certainly true that - by design - core material is not to get wet, but the catch is that the design is faulty and the cores do get wet. There must be a hundred posts on this bulletin board from people who have wet and rotted balsa cores. If balsa wood is rot resistant, why has it rotted in hundreds and hundreds of cases? I'm not advocating for cedar, by the way, I used epoxy resin, epoxy putty, and woven roving topped with glass cloth when I repaired my soft spots.

But I believe your question was, why would anybody use cedar? I didn't use cedar, but I'd certainly try it before I'd put any more balsa wood in my deck. In my mind balsa has proven beyond any question that it fails and readily rots. Granted, it doesn't if it doesn't get wet, but if it didn't get wet and rot there wouldn't be any posts on this BB from people who have rotted cores in their decks. I agree that any core material will suffer damage when it gets wet and the best thing is to not let it get wet, but when it does happen balsa doesn't seem to me to be any better than any other core and probably worse. I've never seen a rotted surfboard core made of foam. It may happen and water that gets in and freezes can certainly damage a surfboard core.

It seems reasonable to me that someone who has had his balsa core fail on him might want to try some other material. It's not like you'd have to be crazy to even consider any other material than balsa wood. As far as builders using balsa goes, many other factors go into choosing a material than just what is the best material. Factors such as cost, ease of installation, skill required, speed, weight and things like that affect a builder's decision to choose a certain material over another. The fact that a lot of builders use it, may just mean it's the cheapest or fastest way to build, rather than that it's the best material available. A lot of builders use chopper guns to lay up hulls too, and that's certainly not an endorsement for chopper gunned hulls over hand layed up cloth and roving hulls.

And finally, >Balsa core has taken a hit with boat owner's.< Maybe that's because so many of them have had bad experiences with it? Boat owners (or anybody else for that matter) usually don't say bad things about materials they've had good luck with. You don't see many complaints here about inflatables made of hypalon, or halyards made of dacron, for example.

I'm not an expert on core materials and as usual this is Just My Humble Opinion (JMHO) Don't take it personal. Opinions are like noses -- everybody has one, and it's rare that they are just alike.

ROT RESISTANT? Why would this come into play for a core on a fiberglass boat? This is where my thinking goes away from the norm. Here's why.

By design, core material is NOT to get wet. Balsa, the most used core material and the one with the longest record of use in production glass work is naturaly resistant to rot. Also end grain (reguardless of the type of wood) will move water with the grain. This prevents (slows) the spreed of moisture into the wood. That is why end grain is used as a core material.

It seams to me that most boatbuilders/repair yards/boat owner's fail to realize the problem is not with the type of core used but the water that enters the core. If you use balse/PVC/foam/ceader/plywood as a core material, it will fail if water enters the core. Boat owner's think that if the core is rot resistant (ceader/PVC/foam/and yes balsa) there is a sense of permanance. If water enters any of these cores there will be a problem. Every time I see someone mount something on there boat with silicone I know that there will be a core problem in the future. I am amazed at how many outboard motors are mounted on transoms that are sealed with silicone. Is there any wonder why transoms rot? It is not a core problem but a installation problem.

How long will the seal of a properly sealed/bedded peice of hardware last? I do not know. Most seals that are not under vibration or a side load should last 10-15+ years. If it is under a load or takes an impact, the seal might only last 5-10 years. REGUARDLESS OF THE CORE, when water enters there will be a problem. If the water freezes, the problem will get worse very quickly. Balsa core has taken a hit with boat owner's. Core problems are more involved then space alows.

Good luck
Glen Snader
CD-10
Future 300MS

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[john doyle]

Really? Do they actually claim this? I had mushy places all over my balsa cored deck when I bought my CD. It's certainly true that - by design - core material is not to get wet, but the catch is that the design is faulty and the cores do get wet. There must be a hundred posts on this bulletin board from people who have wet and rotted balsa cores. If balsa wood is rot resistant, why has it rotted in hundreds and hundreds of cases? I'm not advocating for cedar, by the way, I used epoxy resin, epoxy putty, and woven roving topped with glass cloth when I repaired my soft spots.

But I believe your question was, why would anybody use cedar? I didn't use cedar, but I'd certainly try it before I'd put any more balsa wood in my deck. In my mind balsa has proven beyond any question that it fails and readily rots. Granted, it doesn't if it doesn't get wet, but if it didn't get wet and rot there wouldn't be any posts on this BB from people who have rotted cores in their decks. I agree that any core material will suffer damage when it gets wet and the best thing is to not let it get wet, but when it does happen balsa doesn't seem to me to be any better than any other core and probably worse. I've never seen a rotted surfboard core made of foam. It may happen and water that gets in and freezes can certainly damage a surfboard core.

It seems reasonable to me that someone who has had his balsa core fail on him might want to try some other material. It's not like you'd have to be crazy to even consider any other material than balsa wood. As far as builders using balsa goes, many other factors go into choosing a material than just what is the best material. Factors such as cost, ease of installation, skill required, speed, weight and things like that affect a builder's decision to choose a certain material over another. The fact that a lot of builders use it, may just mean it's the cheapest or fastest way to build, rather than that it's the best material available. A lot of builders use chopper guns to lay up hulls too, and that's certainly not an endorsement for chopper gunned hulls over hand layed up cloth and roving hulls.

And finally, >Balsa core has taken a hit with boat owner's.< Maybe that's because so many of them have had bad experiences with it? Boat owners (or anybody else for that matter) usually don't say bad things about materials they've had good luck with. You don't see many complaints here about inflatables made of hypalon, or halyards made of dacron, for example.

I'm not an expert on core materials and as usual this is Just My Humble Opinion (JMHO) Don't take it personal. Opinions are like noses -- everybody has one, and it's rare that they are just alike.

ROT RESISTANT? Why would this come into play for a core on a fiberglass boat? This is where my thinking goes away from the norm. Here's why.

By design, core material is NOT to get wet. Balsa, the most used core material and the one with the longest record of use in production glass work is naturaly resistant to rot. Also end grain (reguardless of the type of wood) will move water with the grain. This prevents (slows) the spreed of moisture into the wood. That is why end grain is used as a core material.

It seams to me that most boatbuilders/repair yards/boat owner's fail to realize the problem is not with the type of core used but the water that enters the core. If you use balse/PVC/foam/ceader/plywood as a core material, it will fail if water enters the core. Boat owner's think that if the core is rot resistant (ceader/PVC/foam/and yes balsa) there is a sense of permanance. If water enters any of these cores there will be a problem. Every time I see someone mount something on there boat with silicone I know that there will be a core problem in the future. I am amazed at how many outboard motors are mounted on transoms that are sealed with silicone. Is there any wonder why transoms rot? It is not a core problem but a installation problem.

How long will the seal of a properly sealed/bedded peice of hardware last? I do not know. Most seals that are not under vibration or a side load should last 10-15+ years. If it is under a load or takes an impact, the seal might only last 5-10 years. REGUARDLESS OF THE CORE, when water enters there will be a problem. If the water freezes, the problem will get worse very quickly. Balsa core has taken a hit with boat owner's. Core problems are more involved then space alows.

Good luck
Glen Snader
CD-10
Future 300MS

I can assure everyone that balsa does rot & that cape dory boats do get water in the core. I have just finished a MAJOR repair of wet core on my 31. The balsa in some areas was only wet & not rotted, but a couple of areas, such as around the fittings in the cockpit that were not kept sealed by the previous owner and some gel coat cracks had black, rotted balsa. I used the cedar end grain which was recommended by the West system booklet and completely saturated the wood with epoxy. The cedar is easy to find in a local building supply store, easy to cut and work with and provides the stiffness which the balsa was origonally installed for. I strongly suggest the fittings that go through cored areas be removed and recaulked. The balsa can be examined when you remove the fitting. The life line stancions are in an area of solid glass so not to worry there. I removed all of my hand rails & found some small leaks that were not evident until I removed them. It's a lot of work, but once done you shouldn't have to do it for many years.
John CD31 #18 Bonnie Blue



redzeplin@yahoo.com

[Glen Snader]

Tom:

Thanks for your input. I do not take it personal. Please remember that ROT RESISTANT is not the same as ROT PROOF.

An interesting note concerning wood and rot. My shop is on a site that 40-50 years ago was an old saw mill. I was removing some snags in the creek behind my shop and pulled a 16' cyprass board out of the creek. It was 6+ feet under water for 40+ years and still looking almost as good as when it went into the water. Not usable but I saved it just for conversation.

Glen



glen@hobbymarine.com