Any Ph.D.s out there who can tell me how to charge my batter

[Joe L.]

After replacing my bilge pump yesterday, I found that my battery was almost completely dead. The very small charge left was enough to turn on my old automatic bilge pump but did not have enough voltage to run the pump hard enough to pump the water out - hence the pump just pumped and pumped until the pump burned out and the battery was completely drained (to the point where only a tiny small orange glow would come out of a cabin light). Seems like a flaw in the pump design - but that's a subject for another time.

Since we were supposed to get a mother of a storm last night and since my cockpit drains into my bilge (scupper has lost it's seal so water goes into locker then to bilge), I went out and bought a marine battery and replaced my dead one - everything up and running and bilge pump pumping. [An aside - I used my manual pump to pump some water into the bilge to test it and when I stopped I left the sucking end in the bay water, long story short, after doing a few other things I go back in the cabin and find the bilge about to overflow - I had created a siphon and water was still pouring in through the pump. Live and learn.]

Now to my question. I figure I'll just charge my old battery and I'll have a backup. I start looking at battery chargers in the West Marine catalogue and I read their page with battery charging instructions. I read it three time and it just got worse every time. Something like "Charge for 16% of 2% of Ah/(CCD*~17% humidity in Guam) for 41% of 1st beta phase then increase to 33% of Ah+6x*(4th phase - 6% of wavelength of red light) then decrease last gamma phase of 11% charge to 7 GGP..." well, you get the idea.

Can't I just put a friggin charger on the battery and let it charge. And can I use a $20 battery charger from the real world or do I have to buy a $350 charger from the West Marine Syndicate? Or is it easier to just buy a new battery once a year and forget about it?

I have an alternator (or maybe it's a generator) on my Johnson 8hp Sailmaster, but I guess I don't use it enough to keep the battery charged.

Thanks again for your help,

Joe L.
bob CD25 #364
Bristol, RI



jl0246@alpha.rwu.edu

[Catherine Monaghan]

...my husband is but he never visits this board.

Anyway, how about one of those solar panels? Here are a few.

<a href="http://www.icpglobal.com/html/solar.htm">ICP BatterySaver</a>
<a href="http://www.siemenssolar.com/Marine/index.html">Siemens Marine Power Kits</a>
<a href="http://www.kyocerasolar.com/">Kyocera Solar</a>
<a href="http://www.astropower.com/ap30.htm">AstroPower</a>
<a href="http://www.atlanticsolar.com">Atlantic Solar</a>
<a href="http://www.uni-solar.com/cons_products. ... i-Solar</a>

Hope you find a solution.


Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay



catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com

[Paul Hierstein]

After replacing my bilge pump yesterday, I found that my battery was almost completely dead. The very small charge left was enough to turn on my old automatic bilge pump but did not have enough voltage to run the pump hard enough to pump the water out - hence the pump just pumped and pumped until the pump burned out and the battery was completely drained (to the point where only a tiny small orange glow would come out of a cabin light). Seems like a flaw in the pump design - but that's a subject for another time.

Since we were supposed to get a mother of a storm last night and since my cockpit drains into my bilge (scupper has lost it's seal so water goes into locker then to bilge), I went out and bought a marine battery and replaced my dead one - everything up and running and bilge pump pumping. [An aside - I used my manual pump to pump some water into the bilge to test it and when I stopped I left the sucking end in the bay water, long story short, after doing a few other things I go back in the cabin and find the bilge about to overflow - I had created a siphon and water was still pouring in through the pump. Live and learn.]

Now to my question. I figure I'll just charge my old battery and I'll have a backup. I start looking at battery chargers in the West Marine catalogue and I read their page with battery charging instructions. I read it three time and it just got worse every time. Something like "Charge for 16% of 2% of Ah/(CCD*~17% humidity in Guam) for 41% of 1st beta phase then increase to 33% of Ah+6x*(4th phase - 6% of wavelength of red light) then decrease last gamma phase of 11% charge to 7 GGP..." well, you get the idea.

Can't I just put a friggin charger on the battery and let it charge. And can I use a $20 battery charger from the real world or do I have to buy a $350 charger from the West Marine Syndicate? Or is it easier to just buy a new battery once a year and forget about it?

I have an alternator (or maybe it's a generator) on my Johnson 8hp Sailmaster, but I guess I don't use it enough to keep the battery charged.

Thanks again for your help,

Joe L.
bob CD25 #364
Bristol, RI

Joe,
Sorry I don't have my Ph.D. yet, but I do have an MBA (for what that's worth). So I'll put in my 1 1/2 cents worth. I'm sure you'll get all the technical answers later.
I have a $40 charger that can be set at 2, 10 and 30 amps. It also has a guage that tells the rate of charge. If I set it at ten amps and the battery is really low, it will charge at ten amps and then gradually decrease the charge as the battery is replenished. After charging, you can put it on trickle charge if you're going to leave it for any length of time.
Connecting and disconnecting is a bit of a hassle, and you must remove the battery caps while charging. Be sure to use in a well ventilated area because hydrogen gas will be generated (remember the Hindenburg!).
This system is a bit of trouble, but it is pretty foolproof and certainly the cheapest way to go.

Professorily,
Paul
Abre Alas
CD30C
Galveston, Texas



paulhstn@aol.com

[Boyd]

Hi Joe...

The battery charging question has been discussed in great detail. I suggest you check on earlier posts on this subject.

Boyd

After replacing my bilge pump yesterday, I found that my battery was almost completely dead. The very small charge left was enough to turn on my old automatic bilge pump but did not have enough voltage to run the pump hard enough to pump the water out - hence the pump just pumped and pumped until the pump burned out and the battery was completely drained (to the point where only a tiny small orange glow would come out of a cabin light). Seems like a flaw in the pump design - but that's a subject for another time.

Since we were supposed to get a mother of a storm last night and since my cockpit drains into my bilge (scupper has lost it's seal so water goes into locker then to bilge), I went out and bought a marine battery and replaced my dead one - everything up and running and bilge pump pumping. [An aside - I used my manual pump to pump some water into the bilge to test it and when I stopped I left the sucking end in the bay water, long story short, after doing a few other things I go back in the cabin and find the bilge about to overflow - I had created a siphon and water was still pouring in through the pump. Live and learn.]

Now to my question. I figure I'll just charge my old battery and I'll have a backup. I start looking at battery chargers in the West Marine catalogue and I read their page with battery charging instructions. I read it three time and it just got worse every time. Something like "Charge for 16% of 2% of Ah/(CCD*~17% humidity in Guam) for 41% of 1st beta phase then increase to 33% of Ah+6x*(4th phase - 6% of wavelength of red light) then decrease last gamma phase of 11% charge to 7 GGP..." well, you get the idea.

Can't I just put a friggin charger on the battery and let it charge. And can I use a $20 battery charger from the real world or do I have to buy a $350 charger from the West Marine Syndicate? Or is it easier to just buy a new battery once a year and forget about it?

I have an alternator (or maybe it's a generator) on my Johnson 8hp Sailmaster, but I guess I don't use it enough to keep the battery charged.

Thanks again for your help,

Joe L.
bob CD25 #364
Bristol, RI

Boyd@wbta.cc

[Andy Denmark]

Hi Joe,

Paul is on the money. Get a cheapie automatic battery charger and use as he suggested but there's one precaution you should take. Be sure to disconnect the negative side of your battery connection (to the engine block or paneL) or you'll eat up your prop and thru-hulls with electrolysis when the battery charger is on. These automobile chargers aren't made for use on boats and there's no type of isolation.Your boat, and others around you will suffer if you leave that negative wire hooked up.

FWIW

ANdy Denmark CD-27 "rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

Joe,
Sorry I don't have my Ph.D. yet, but I do have an MBA (for what that's worth). So I'll put in my 1 1/2 cents worth. I'm sure you'll get all the technical answers later.
I have a $40 charger that can be set at 2, 10 and 30 amps. It also has a guage that tells the rate of charge. If I set it at ten amps and the battery is really low, it will charge at ten amps and then gradually decrease the charge as the battery is replenished. After charging, you can put it on trickle charge if you're going to leave it for any length of time.
Connecting and disconnecting is a bit of a hassle, and you must remove the battery caps while charging. Be sure to use in a well ventilated area because hydrogen gas will be generated (remember the Hindenburg!).
This system is a bit of trouble, but it is pretty foolproof and certainly the cheapest way to go.

Professorily,
Paul
Abre Alas
CD30C
Galveston, Texas

trekker@coastalnet.com

[Joe L.]

Andy and Paul,

I won't be charging it on the water. Since I have two batteries now, I'll keep one charged to replace the other one with when it gets low (or before it gets low). Two questions, do I set the charger on 10 amps? And one of my batteries is maintenance free, do I still need to add water or remove the battery caps?

[Larry DeMers]

First of all, the old battery that you brought down to near dead condition has been ruined. It may take a partial charge now, but will increasingly discharge internally. Never, ever take a storage battery past about 11 volts. If you get to 10v, you have started or increased the already growing dendrites that form on plates internally, and these then short out to the next plate, discharging the battery thru this path. Plan on a new one next year.

Now to recharging the new batteries. Yes..you will need to remove the caps to allow the hydrogen gas to escape, and you will need to add deionized water to the cells about every two or three charges, as the cheap automotive chargers ("automatic" or not) do not shut off completely, but rather keep pumping current into the cells after they are recharged, which encourages water to be evaporated out of the electroyte which increases it's acid content, eating away at the plates that much more etc.
A better charging idea, since you are using this at home, is to use a ferro-resonant charger, which will take longer to recharge fully..like a day for a badly discharged battery. They evaporate less electrolyte, and are relatively cheap to buy now, since most people now use a three step charger, which these are not. (I have a used one that I would sell if you were interested).

The best method is the three step charge process. This eliminates adding water pretty much completely, since the charge curve is kept below the point where the electrolyte becomes active with bubbles, so less water is lost. But this may be overkill in your situation.

Buy yourself a good multi-meter, learn to use it. Stop discharges before they go past 11.0v Recharge as soon as you can, and top off the cells with D.I. water before doing so. You will get 2-3 years on your bank if you do this..maybe a lot more if you are careful about the low voltage stop point, and keeping the cells filled to the upper water mark.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior

After replacing my bilge pump yesterday, I found that my battery was almost completely dead. The very small charge left was enough to turn on my old automatic bilge pump but did not have enough voltage to run the pump hard enough to pump the water out - hence the pump just pumped and pumped until the pump burned out and the battery was completely drained (to the point where only a tiny small orange glow would come out of a cabin light). Seems like a flaw in the pump design - but that's a subject for another time.

Since we were supposed to get a mother of a storm last night and since my cockpit drains into my bilge (scupper has lost it's seal so water goes into locker then to bilge), I went out and bought a marine battery and replaced my dead one - everything up and running and bilge pump pumping. [An aside - I used my manual pump to pump some water into the bilge to test it and when I stopped I left the sucking end in the bay water, long story short, after doing a few other things I go back in the cabin and find the bilge about to overflow - I had created a siphon and water was still pouring in through the pump. Live and learn.]

Now to my question. I figure I'll just charge my old battery and I'll have a backup. I start looking at battery chargers in the West Marine catalogue and I read their page with battery charging instructions. I read it three time and it just got worse every time. Something like "Charge for 16% of 2% of Ah/(CCD*~17% humidity in Guam) for 41% of 1st beta phase then increase to 33% of Ah+6x*(4th phase - 6% of wavelength of red light) then decrease last gamma phase of 11% charge to 7 GGP..." well, you get the idea.

Can't I just put a friggin charger on the battery and let it charge. And can I use a $20 battery charger from the real world or do I have to buy a $350 charger from the West Marine Syndicate? Or is it easier to just buy a new battery once a year and forget about it?

I have an alternator (or maybe it's a generator) on my Johnson 8hp Sailmaster, but I guess I don't use it enough to keep the battery charged.

Thanks again for your help,

Joe L.
bob CD25 #364
Bristol, RI

demers@sgi.com

[John M Freeman]

All of the above posting are on the money. But here is another 1/2 cents worth....
If charging with the run of the mill charger at your house, the 10 amp setting is a great idea from the earlier postings, but I would reccomend a 30 or 50 amp initial charge for an hour or so, then step down to 10 amps to top off the battery, and once it cycles, put it on a trickle charge, 2 amps, for about 24 hours. Stepping the charge like this ensures that your battery gets a full charge, it is the same thing that a 3 stage charger like a $300 Heart unit does. Some maintenance free batteries do have service caps under the stickers, but sometimes what seems to be a service cap is really a sealed unit that is destroyed when removing. Just be careful, watch for splashing acid, and if the cap doesn't want to come off it probably isn't meant to. If you can get the caps off, top the unit off with distilled water, fill it up until the plates are covered. The hydrogen discussed earlier is from the water breaking down due to the charging proccess. So all water filled batteries eventually go low on water. And lastly, if you do go with a solar charger, which I recommend, be sure to get a regulator, because over time the solar panel can over charge the battery and kill it, much the same as if you left the battery with no charge on it for too long. Hope this helps, fair winds,

John M Freeman
S/V Nanook
CD25, #287



capn_jack68@yahoo.com

[Larry DeMers]

Guys,

a couple comments:

If charging with the run of the mill charger at your house, the 10 amp setting is a great idea from the earlier postings, but I would reccomend a 30 or 50 amp initial charge for an hour or so, then step down to 10 amps to top off the battery, and once it cycles, put it on a trickle charge, 2 amps, for about 24 hours. Stepping the charge like this ensures that your battery gets a full charge, it is the same thing that a 3 stage charger like a $300 Heart unit does.

The thing of it is that you are trying to copy the Heart inverter/charger (which I have), but with a far cheaper device. Why you pay so much for the Heart inverters, or any 3 stage charger for that matter, is thhat this is a voltage and a current controlled charger. That is in the Bulk phase of the charge cycle, the voltage is held high and the current is controlled so that the bank is not overheated by the charge process. In the Acceptance Phase of the charge cycle, both current and voltage are held to preset limits for a set period of time. In the Float Stage, the current is controlled and the voltage is set higher than normal.
So the 3 stage charger is a bit more complex than the nifty little car battery charger that outputs whatever current the batteries resistance will allow for the voltage being output. There is a reason for some of the $300 you pay.

And lastly, if you do go with a solar charger, which I recommend, be sure to get a regulator, because over time the solar panel can over charge the battery and kill it, much the same as if you left the battery with no charge on it for too long.

Not true of smaller PV arrays, only larger ones. If the PV array is for simply float charging the bank, then it is very safe to not use a regulator on it. The possible currents are too small to worry about. Now if the PV array is something that will give you 3amps or more lets say, then it better have a regulator on it alright. There are several available. But I wonder where one would mount a PV array on the CD25 that would be sufficiently exposed to the sun, yet not be a real PITA to work around. I suspect that if I am having trouble finding such a place on my CD30, the 25 has to be several times harder to find a good place to mount it.

As I mentioned before, a good quality 3 stage charger is only $160 or less at West Marine, and it would certainly solve a lot of the problems that the original poster will and has run into.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 Lake Superior



demers@sgi.com

[mac taylor]

Hi Joe,

Paul is on the money. Get a cheapie automatic battery charger and use as he suggested but there's one precaution you should take. Be sure to disconnect the negative side of your battery connection (to the engine block or paneL) or you'll eat up your prop and thru-hulls with electrolysis when the battery charger is on. These automobile chargers aren't made for use on boats and there's no type of isolation.Your boat, and others around you will suffer if you leave that negative wire hooked up.

FWIW

ANdy Denmark CD-27 "rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

Joe,
Sorry I don't have my Ph.D. yet, but I do have an MBA (for what that's worth). So I'll put in my 1 1/2 cents worth. I'm sure you'll get all the technical answers later.
I have a $40 charger that can be set at 2, 10 and 30 amps. It also has a guage that tells the rate of charge. If I set it at ten amps and the battery is really low, it will charge at ten amps and then gradually decrease the charge as the battery is replenished. After charging, you can put it on trickle charge if you're going to leave it for any length of time.
Connecting and disconnecting is a bit of a hassle, and you must remove the battery caps while charging. Be sure to use in a well ventilated area because hydrogen gas will be generated (remember the Hindenburg!).
This system is a bit of trouble, but it is pretty foolproof and certainly the cheapest way to go.

Professorily,
Paul
Abre Alas
CD30C
Galveston, Texas

Andy,

I charged my batteries this weekend, but did not disconnect the negative posts. I will not do this again after reading your comments. I have not done this many times before, maybe 1 or 2, but am concerned about electrolysis per your post. Do I have anything to worry about having only done this once or twice? Thanks!!



mtaylor673@aol.com

[John M Freeman]

larry,
not recommending that this be done everytime the batteries need to be recharged, in that case i would recommend a charging system. even i am not that much of a cheapskate. if he is trying to resurrect a very badly discharged battery without just applying a surface charge, these are the steps i would recommend. also, any solar panel left hooked up unattended for long periods without use can pose an overcharge situation.



capn_jack68@yahoo.com

[Andy Denmark]

Hi Joe,

Paul is on the money. Get a cheapie automatic battery charger and use as he suggested but there's one precaution you should take. Be sure to disconnect the negative side of your battery connection (to the engine block or paneL) or you'll eat up your prop and thru-hulls with electrolysis when the battery charger is on. These automobile chargers aren't made for use on boats and there's no type of isolation.Your boat, and others around you will suffer if you leave that negative wire hooked up.

FWIW

Andy Denmark CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

Joe,
Sorry I don't have my Ph.D. yet, but I do have an MBA (for what that's worth). So I'll put in my 1 1/2 cents worth. I'm sure you'll get all the technical answers later.
I have a $40 charger that can be set at 2, 10 and 30 amps. It also has a guage that tells the rate of charge. If I set it at ten amps and the battery is really low, it will charge at ten amps and then gradually decrease the charge as the battery is replenished. After charging, you can put it on trickle charge if you're going to leave it for any length of time.
Connecting and disconnecting is a bit of a hassle, and you must remove the battery caps while charging. Be sure to use in a well ventilated area because hydrogen gas will be generated (remember the Hindenburg!).
This system is a bit of trouble, but it is pretty foolproof and certainly the cheapest way to go.

Professorily,
Paul
Abre Alas
CD30C
Galveston, Texas

Andy,

I charged my batteries this weekend, but did not disconnect the negative posts. I will not do this again after reading your comments. I have not done this many times before, maybe 1 or 2, but am concerned about electrolysis per your post. Do I have anything to worry about having only done this once or twice? Thanks!!

I was more focused on automotive chargers that have an "automatic" setting, and, I guess, "trickle chargers." Left hooked up(long term -- like several days) and/or on "automatic," there is a measureable current flowing from any piece of (connected) underwater metal and the surrounding water. The metal is anodic so is therefore sacrificial. Cape Dories are well bonded so all the underwater metal is connected. When you take off the negative battery lead, the battery is effectively disconnected and the circuit via the shore power ground and the negative side of the boat is broken and no current can flow.

We have hauled boats out that used these chargers in the automatic mode and every thru-hull and the propeller blades were honeycombed. Boats in adjacent slips also showed problems with electrolysis. Trying to save a few bucks for a proper charger costs many hundreds to repair, and if your neighbors discover you're the cause of their damage, then a suit might result.

It's easy to understand how this could happen, considering what marine stuff costs, but often the reason for the additional cost is justified, just as Larry said.

No PhD here, just some practical experience. I don't think you hurt your boat if you didn't leave the charger on for several days. But this damage is cumulative so don't make it a habit.

Hope this helps,

Andy

trekker@coastalnet.com

[Larry DeMers]

John,

Smaller PV arrays output something like 1 amp or so max. and frequently far less. This amount of current is in the trickle charge area, and will only slightly exceed the internal discharge rates for most average age batteries, and as such no regulation would be needed here. The battery will absorb the charge without damage, treating it like a maintenance charge (trickle charge).

This fact is easily verified with Calder, or any other source of information on PV arrays ( I use Home Power Magazine as one great source). I have never seen a dissenting opinion in fact, until now.

As I stated earlier, if the arrays will output greater than 1 amp, then the possibility of overcharging does exist, so a regulator is needed then.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 Lake Superior

larry,
not recommending that this be done everytime the batteries need to be recharged, in that case i would recommend a charging system. even i am not that much of a cheapskate. if he is trying to resurrect a very badly discharged battery without just applying a surface charge, these are the steps i would recommend. also, any solar panel left hooked up unattended for long periods without use can pose an overcharge situation.

demers@sgi.com

[John R.]

I concur. Generally less than one amp and you have not much to be concerned about but anything over an amp you should indeed incorporate a regulator, need not be anything expensive or fancy though.

ICP makes a inexpensive little regulator for under 7 amp panels. Has statue LED's and works quite well.

John,

Smaller PV arrays output something like 1 amp or so max. and frequently far less. This amount of current is in the trickle charge area, and will only slightly exceed the internal discharge rates for most average age batteries, and as such no regulation would be needed here. The battery will absorb the charge without damage, treating it like a maintenance charge (trickle charge).

This fact is easily verified with Calder, or any other source of information on PV arrays ( I use Home Power Magazine as one great source). I have never seen a dissenting opinion in fact, until now.

As I stated earlier, if the arrays will output greater than 1 amp, then the possibility of overcharging does exist, so a regulator is needed then.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 Lake Superior

larry,
not recommending that this be done everytime the batteries need to be recharged, in that case i would recommend a charging system. even i am not that much of a cheapskate. if he is trying to resurrect a very badly discharged battery without just applying a surface charge, these are the steps i would recommend. also, any solar panel left hooked up unattended for long periods without use can pose an overcharge situation.