Well, it started as an almost perfect sailing day. Close reaching for one of my favorite anchrages with 7.3 on the knot meter. Skies were blue, no boat traffic. One of my favorite sayings it 'isolated instances are the first sign of an epidemic'. The first instance of trouble was that the wind speed instrument died. Hmmm..... Instrument has power since the direction indicator is working. Could be the signal cable connection in the "waterproof" box in the bilge. Hey! why is there water above the floorboards? Go into flooding control mode. First priority, flip on the electric bilge pump. Now find that leak. Start by shutting down all seacocks except the cockpit drains. Too much water to find the source of the leak. Try manning the manual pumps for a while. Get some serious cardio vascular work. Water level drops some, then stops. Check the cockpit drains.....no water coming in there. Electric pump not functioning....Check the fuse...Yep, burned out. Find those fuses. Pump sort of working. Try and feel around knot meter impeller. Do not feel water there. Pump some more. Water level not dropping. OK, time to reduce sail. Furl the Yankee and tack. Pump pump pump.......Bilge is empty! No leak to be found. Tack back to find leak.....no leak. Manually start the electric bilge pump. All is ok. Woosh bilge fills up. Clamp off the bilge pump exit hose. All is ok again.?p? You guessed it. The check valve stuck open. On starboard tack the outlet is below the water line. On port tack it is not. I cleaned the check valve, but it has worn to the point that a file was required to make it reliable. Despite the fact that I keep the bilge clean, the high water found some debris that is not normally accessible and washed it down to the pumps. I have the ability to open a valve and have the engine pump out the bilge, but with the extra debris, I did not want to risk plugging up the engine. ?p?I have since added a vented loop and completed my high water alarm system. I have been thinking of changing the buzzer to a car horn. The vented loop and the check valve are mechanical systems that can get plugged up or jammed and fail. I can see two improvements at this point. One is to move the exit point to somewhere near the rail. That will leave an ugly streak when the pump runs. The other is to add a seacock to both the manual and electric pump outlets. The valve on the exit to the manual pump makes sense, but getting at it could be difficult in a pinch. A valve on the automatic pump does not make as much sense. ?p?Any other ideas? I do not want to go through that again, particularly in a storm.?p?Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
That sinking feeling.
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Richard Formice
Re: That sinking feeling.
Hi Matt,
Hair raising story, but sounds like you kept your cool and worked the problem. I am a little confused about something. You have a 36, correct? Does you bilge pump drain above the waterline on the overhang? This is where mine drains. Anyway, my hoses run through the top of my sail locker so even when heeled they are still above the drain hole. If your gate valve failed (if my valve failed), how would water flow into the bilge-syphone effect?
rich
richard.formica@yale.edu
Hair raising story, but sounds like you kept your cool and worked the problem. I am a little confused about something. You have a 36, correct? Does you bilge pump drain above the waterline on the overhang? This is where mine drains. Anyway, my hoses run through the top of my sail locker so even when heeled they are still above the drain hole. If your gate valve failed (if my valve failed), how would water flow into the bilge-syphone effect?
rich
matt cawthorne wrote: Well, it started as an almost perfect sailing day. Close reaching for one of my favorite anchrages with 7.3 on the knot meter. Skies were blue, no boat traffic. One of my favorite sayings it 'isolated instances are the first sign of an epidemic'. The first instance of trouble was that the wind speed instrument died. Hmmm..... Instrument has power since the direction indicator is working. Could be the signal cable connection in the "waterproof" box in the bilge. Hey! why is there water above the floorboards? Go into flooding control mode. First priority, flip on the electric bilge pump. Now find that leak. Start by shutting down all seacocks except the cockpit drains. Too much water to find the source of the leak. Try manning the manual pumps for a while. Get some serious cardio vascular work. Water level drops some, then stops. Check the cockpit drains.....no water coming in there. Electric pump not functioning....Check the fuse...Yep, burned out. Find those fuses. Pump sort of working. Try and feel around knot meter impeller. Do not feel water there. Pump some more. Water level not dropping. OK, time to reduce sail. Furl the Yankee and tack. Pump pump pump.......Bilge is empty! No leak to be found. Tack back to find leak.....no leak. Manually start the electric bilge pump. All is ok. Woosh bilge fills up. Clamp off the bilge pump exit hose. All is ok again.?p? You guessed it. The check valve stuck open. On starboard tack the outlet is below the water line. On port tack it is not. I cleaned the check valve, but it has worn to the point that a file was required to make it reliable. Despite the fact that I keep the bilge clean, the high water found some debris that is not normally accessible and washed it down to the pumps. I have the ability to open a valve and have the engine pump out the bilge, but with the extra debris, I did not want to risk plugging up the engine. ?p?I have since added a vented loop and completed my high water alarm system. I have been thinking of changing the buzzer to a car horn. The vented loop and the check valve are mechanical systems that can get plugged up or jammed and fail. I can see two improvements at this point. One is to move the exit point to somewhere near the rail. That will leave an ugly streak when the pump runs. The other is to add a seacock to both the manual and electric pump outlets. The valve on the exit to the manual pump makes sense, but getting at it could be difficult in a pinch. A valve on the automatic pump does not make as much sense. ?p?Any other ideas? I do not want to go through that again, particularly in a storm.?p?Matt
richard.formica@yale.edu
-
matt cawthorne
Re: That sinking feeling.
The bilge pump does drain above the waterline on the overhang. When heeling on the starboard tack the drain is below the water (stern wave). The 1 1/8 hose runs from the pump, beside the engine, into the port cockpit locker, up to deck level and then back down to the drain. Once the check valve gets stuck in the open position, the syphon effect can get started by a wave slapping up on the side of the boat, or (from the other end) by the bilge pump itself pushing water up. Theoretically the bilge pump would cycle on and off, keeping the water level down, but if the switch gets left in the off position or knocked that way or the fuse gets burned out you get quite a bit of water from that syphon effect. The bilge is probably 4 feet below the waterline. It is amazing how fast that water comes back in that way. I will be cleaning and lubing the check valve more often as well as cleaning the new vented loop, but they can still fail, or get jammed open/closed by a piece of debris. That is why I am looking for a more positive system. Perhaps a flapper valve over an exit that is near the deck level, in addition to the check valve for the electric pump, in combination with a seacock for the manual pump. The manual pump theoretically has two check valves built in.
The whole event lasted only 20 minutes but, in rough seas, it could have become hours or worse.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
The whole event lasted only 20 minutes but, in rough seas, it could have become hours or worse.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
-
Carl Jones
Re: That sinking feeling.
Matt,matt cawthorne wrote: The bilge pump does drain above the waterline on the overhang. When heeling on the starboard tack the drain is below the water (stern wave). The 1 1/8 hose runs from the pump, beside the engine, into the port cockpit locker, up to deck level and then back down to the drain. Once the check valve gets stuck in the open position, the syphon effect can get started by a wave slapping up on the side of the boat, or (from the other end) by the bilge pump itself pushing water up. Theoretically the bilge pump would cycle on and off, keeping the water level down, but if the switch gets left in the off position or knocked that way or the fuse gets burned out you get quite a bit of water from that syphon effect. The bilge is probably 4 feet below the waterline. It is amazing how fast that water comes back in that way. I will be cleaning and lubing the check valve more often as well as cleaning the new vented loop, but they can still fail, or get jammed open/closed by a piece of debris. That is why I am looking for a more positive system. Perhaps a flapper valve over an exit that is near the deck level, in addition to the check valve for the electric pump, in combination with a seacock for the manual pump. The manual pump theoretically has two check valves built in.
The whole event lasted only 20 minutes but, in rough seas, it could have become hours or worse.
Matt
I've had the same thing happen on my 30. In my case it was also the electric bilge pump hose, but it exits on the starboard side, so it happened on port tack. It only occured when we were doing hull speed and the quarter wave was about level with the deck at the transom, on the starboard side. This put the top of the loop in the hose at water level also.
I've thought of some of the same solutions as you have, but am reluctant to put a check in the bilge pump hose, and also couldn't think of an easy way to access a seacock. I have another idea I'd like to bounce of you and anyone else that reads this message. What about crossing the hoses to opposite sides of the boat. In other words, the electric bilge pump hose, which now runs along the starboard side of the boat would be extended to cross over to the port side of the boat and connect to the manual bilge pump outlet on the port side and the manual bilge pump hose, which runs down the port side of the boat, would be extended to connect to the electric bilge pump outlet on the starboard side of the boat. This would, in effect, raise the height of the loop in the hose, due to the heeling angle of the boat, and would put the top of the loop above the water line when the boat is at hull speed, hopefully preventing the siphon. Let me know if you think this will work.
Thanks,
Carl
GreatCells@aol.com
-
Ken Coit
Re: That sinking feeling.
Matt,
Parfait's bilge pump hose exits through the transom well above the waterline. I think the manual pump may as well. I will check.
Keep on sailing,
Ken Coit
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
Parfait's bilge pump hose exits through the transom well above the waterline. I think the manual pump may as well. I will check.
Keep on sailing,
Ken Coit
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC
matt cawthorne wrote: Well, it started as an almost perfect sailing day. Close reaching for one of my favorite anchrages with 7.3 on the knot meter. Skies were blue, no boat traffic. One of my favorite sayings it 'isolated instances are the first sign of an epidemic'. The first instance of trouble was that the wind speed instrument died. Hmmm..... Instrument has power since the direction indicator is working. Could be the signal cable connection in the "waterproof" box in the bilge. Hey! why is there water above the floorboards? Go into flooding control mode. First priority, flip on the electric bilge pump. Now find that leak. Start by shutting down all seacocks except the cockpit drains. Too much water to find the source of the leak. Try manning the manual pumps for a while. Get some serious cardio vascular work. Water level drops some, then stops. Check the cockpit drains.....no water coming in there. Electric pump not functioning....Check the fuse...Yep, burned out. Find those fuses. Pump sort of working. Try and feel around knot meter impeller. Do not feel water there. Pump some more. Water level not dropping. OK, time to reduce sail. Furl the Yankee and tack. Pump pump pump.......Bilge is empty! No leak to be found. Tack back to find leak.....no leak. Manually start the electric bilge pump. All is ok. Woosh bilge fills up. Clamp off the bilge pump exit hose. All is ok again.?p? You guessed it. The check valve stuck open. On starboard tack the outlet is below the water line. On port tack it is not. I cleaned the check valve, but it has worn to the point that a file was required to make it reliable. Despite the fact that I keep the bilge clean, the high water found some debris that is not normally accessible and washed it down to the pumps. I have the ability to open a valve and have the engine pump out the bilge, but with the extra debris, I did not want to risk plugging up the engine. ?p?I have since added a vented loop and completed my high water alarm system. I have been thinking of changing the buzzer to a car horn. The vented loop and the check valve are mechanical systems that can get plugged up or jammed and fail. I can see two improvements at this point. One is to move the exit point to somewhere near the rail. That will leave an ugly streak when the pump runs. The other is to add a seacock to both the manual and electric pump outlets. The valve on the exit to the manual pump makes sense, but getting at it could be difficult in a pinch. A valve on the automatic pump does not make as much sense. ?p?Any other ideas? I do not want to go through that again, particularly in a storm.?p?Matt
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
-
matt cawthorne
Re: That sinking feeling.
Carl,
Your crossing idea would certainly reduce or eliminate the chance that the siphon would start due to a wave. In the event that the bilge pump started the siphon, you know that the bilge pump is working and would continue to cycle on and off to keep the water out. If your bilge pump quits (perhaps the fuse burns out because the pump is unable to start against the backflow?) then you are vulnerable. The height of the loop is of little effect on the siphon once started.
Crossing the lines is a good idea. It will add length to the hose and slow down the pumping action, but not by much.
Thanks,
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
Your crossing idea would certainly reduce or eliminate the chance that the siphon would start due to a wave. In the event that the bilge pump started the siphon, you know that the bilge pump is working and would continue to cycle on and off to keep the water out. If your bilge pump quits (perhaps the fuse burns out because the pump is unable to start against the backflow?) then you are vulnerable. The height of the loop is of little effect on the siphon once started.
Crossing the lines is a good idea. It will add length to the hose and slow down the pumping action, but not by much.
Thanks,
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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John R.
Bilge pump
A couple thoughts you might wish to ponder. The criss crosing of lines would help but it would also increase the head pressure on the pump and result in less discharge flow (not good in an emergency)unless you fit an oversized pump which is a good idea in the first place. The bigger the better in my opinion. The more pumps the better also.Carl Jones wrote:Matt,matt cawthorne wrote: The bilge pump does drain above the waterline on the overhang. When heeling on the starboard tack the drain is below the water (stern wave). The 1 1/8 hose runs from the pump, beside the engine, into the port cockpit locker, up to deck level and then back down to the drain. Once the check valve gets stuck in the open position, the syphon effect can get started by a wave slapping up on the side of the boat, or (from the other end) by the bilge pump itself pushing water up. Theoretically the bilge pump would cycle on and off, keeping the water level down, but if the switch gets left in the off position or knocked that way or the fuse gets burned out you get quite a bit of water from that syphon effect. The bilge is probably 4 feet below the waterline. It is amazing how fast that water comes back in that way. I will be cleaning and lubing the check valve more often as well as cleaning the new vented loop, but they can still fail, or get jammed open/closed by a piece of debris. That is why I am looking for a more positive system. Perhaps a flapper valve over an exit that is near the deck level, in addition to the check valve for the electric pump, in combination with a seacock for the manual pump. The manual pump theoretically has two check valves built in.
The whole event lasted only 20 minutes but, in rough seas, it could have become hours or worse.
Matt
I've had the same thing happen on my 30. In my case it was also the electric bilge pump hose, but it exits on the starboard side, so it happened on port tack. It only occured when we were doing hull speed and the quarter wave was about level with the deck at the transom, on the starboard side. This put the top of the loop in the hose at water level also.
I've thought of some of the same solutions as you have, but am reluctant to put a check in the bilge pump hose, and also couldn't think of an easy way to access a seacock. I have another idea I'd like to bounce of you and anyone else that reads this message. What about crossing the hoses to opposite sides of the boat. In other words, the electric bilge pump hose, which now runs along the starboard side of the boat would be extended to cross over to the port side of the boat and connect to the manual bilge pump outlet on the port side and the manual bilge pump hose, which runs down the port side of the boat, would be extended to connect to the electric bilge pump outlet on the starboard side of the boat. This would, in effect, raise the height of the loop in the hose, due to the heeling angle of the boat, and would put the top of the loop above the water line when the boat is at hull speed, hopefully preventing the siphon. Let me know if you think this will work.
Thanks,
Carl
I prefer diaphram pumps as the primary bilge pump like the ITT Pars instead of typical centrifugal pumps for the following reasons:
No backflow on the output side.
No wiring in the bilge on the vessels primary pump.
Pump mounted high and dry.
Nil chance of stray current leaks from the pump.
Dependable, not easily clogged or jammed like a centrifigul.
Servicable.
Simple installation.
Use a very large capacity centrifigul pump on a separate seacock thru hull installation as an emergency back up pump. In addition plumb a "T" with a valve off the engine intake before the strainer for emergency pumping usage but be certain to use a high quality strainer on the end of that engine intake bilge hose to allow plenty of water passage (Par makes an excellent one for this purpose).
Make plumbing modifications in advance so that in the future if need arises you can switch other pumps on board into bilge pumping capability when needed in an instant by use of pre-installed Y valves, hose and strainers.
Matt would have been in a bad situation had his manual pump jammed or had he not located his spare fuses or been savy enough to know to change tacks. When it comes to pumping make sure you have plenty of back up and a very big bucket.
-
Larry DeMers
Re: That sinking feeling...wow!
Wow Matt...every sailors nightmare! Thank Neptune that you were able to use a little logic and find the reason..it exercises the brain pretty hard for those few minutes though. Glad she is nice and dry now.
The crossed hoses idea is excellent..and the beauty is that you really don't need to cross them literally, once your mind can picture your boat heeled with the thru-hull near the water. If the hose were merely extended horizontally perhaps a couple feet even, then allowed to resume coarse to thethru hull, it would act as if ithe hose were going uphill when the boat was heeled. My brain is at half-pay today sorry..just returned from vacation..try this; Going from the thru hull, follow that 1.5 in. hose inside the boat. Instead of going as high and as direct as possible to the bilge pump, what if the hose were first brought over to the ships midline, the back to the original coarse to the bilge pump itself (without creating dips and sags in the hose)? This hose, when the boat is heeled, would provide an upwards slope to the water, preventing the back syphoning?
Don't add too many extra feet to the hose though, as these hoses are very resistive to water flow, and pump output will suffer measureably. A smooth bore hose is the best bet, but they are pretty expensive.
Matt, one further question on something you said. You said that you didn't want to have a thru hull very high up the hull because it would create ugly streaks on the hull. I was thinking that with the bilge pump, it should basicly never run, unless of an emergency situation. For small water problems, use the manual pump..it goes into the bilge deeper, and will get it dryer. Save that big electric for the big problems like you had. It paid for itself.
Stay Dry and keep your hockey sticks on the floor..
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30
demers@sgi.com
The crossed hoses idea is excellent..and the beauty is that you really don't need to cross them literally, once your mind can picture your boat heeled with the thru-hull near the water. If the hose were merely extended horizontally perhaps a couple feet even, then allowed to resume coarse to thethru hull, it would act as if ithe hose were going uphill when the boat was heeled. My brain is at half-pay today sorry..just returned from vacation..try this; Going from the thru hull, follow that 1.5 in. hose inside the boat. Instead of going as high and as direct as possible to the bilge pump, what if the hose were first brought over to the ships midline, the back to the original coarse to the bilge pump itself (without creating dips and sags in the hose)? This hose, when the boat is heeled, would provide an upwards slope to the water, preventing the back syphoning?
Don't add too many extra feet to the hose though, as these hoses are very resistive to water flow, and pump output will suffer measureably. A smooth bore hose is the best bet, but they are pretty expensive.
Matt, one further question on something you said. You said that you didn't want to have a thru hull very high up the hull because it would create ugly streaks on the hull. I was thinking that with the bilge pump, it should basicly never run, unless of an emergency situation. For small water problems, use the manual pump..it goes into the bilge deeper, and will get it dryer. Save that big electric for the big problems like you had. It paid for itself.
Stay Dry and keep your hockey sticks on the floor..
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30
Carl Jones wrote:Matt,matt cawthorne wrote: The bilge pump does drain above the waterline on the overhang. When heeling on the starboard tack the drain is below the water (stern wave). The 1 1/8 hose runs from the pump, beside the engine, into the port cockpit locker, up to deck level and then back down to the drain. Once the check valve gets stuck in the open position, the syphon effect can get started by a wave slapping up on the side of the boat, or (from the other end) by the bilge pump itself pushing water up. Theoretically the bilge pump would cycle on and off, keeping the water level down, but if the switch gets left in the off position or knocked that way or the fuse gets burned out you get quite a bit of water from that syphon effect. The bilge is probably 4 feet below the waterline. It is amazing how fast that water comes back in that way. I will be cleaning and lubing the check valve more often as well as cleaning the new vented loop, but they can still fail, or get jammed open/closed by a piece of debris. That is why I am looking for a more positive system. Perhaps a flapper valve over an exit that is near the deck level, in addition to the check valve for the electric pump, in combination with a seacock for the manual pump. The manual pump theoretically has two check valves built in.
The whole event lasted only 20 minutes but, in rough seas, it could have become hours or worse.
Matt
I've had the same thing happen on my 30. In my case it was also the electric bilge pump hose, but it exits on the starboard side, so it happened on port tack. It only occured when we were doing hull speed and the quarter wave was about level with the deck at the transom, on the starboard side. This put the top of the loop in the hose at water level also.
I've thought of some of the same solutions as you have, but am reluctant to put a check in the bilge pump hose, and also couldn't think of an easy way to access a seacock. I have another idea I'd like to bounce of you and anyone else that reads this message. What about crossing the hoses to opposite sides of the boat. In other words, the electric bilge pump hose, which now runs along the starboard side of the boat would be extended to cross over to the port side of the boat and connect to the manual bilge pump outlet on the port side and the manual bilge pump hose, which runs down the port side of the boat, would be extended to connect to the electric bilge pump outlet on the starboard side of the boat. This would, in effect, raise the height of the loop in the hose, due to the heeling angle of the boat, and would put the top of the loop above the water line when the boat is at hull speed, hopefully preventing the siphon. Let me know if you think this will work.
Thanks,
Carl
demers@sgi.com
-
Maurice Sullivan
Re: That sinking feeling.
Matt,
I found this to be a good article on the subject of bilge pumps: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm. Another source, that I can't locate at this time, says that you shouldn't use a check valve in a bilge pump system because of the tendency to stick in the open position.
Maurice Sullivan
New Owner
CD33 #55 "Grace"
Lafayette, Louisiana
mjsullivan@mindspring.com
I found this to be a good article on the subject of bilge pumps: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm. Another source, that I can't locate at this time, says that you shouldn't use a check valve in a bilge pump system because of the tendency to stick in the open position.
Maurice Sullivan
New Owner
CD33 #55 "Grace"
Lafayette, Louisiana
mjsullivan@mindspring.com
-
Boyd
Re: That sinking feeling.
Nothing like a full bilge to bring the heart rate up.
On Tern the electric bilge pump exits on the stern about a foot below the rail. This point is never under water unless I get a very big wave slap from the stern. No streaks since the bilge rarely gets any water. There is a full loop in the hose up to the underside of the deck before the hose goes thur the thru-hull. No check valve. The only problem with this system is there is a certain amount of water that flows back to the bilge when the pump cycles off. Sometimes the pump will cycle 4 or 5 times before shutting off. Never had any water get in due to the situation you describe.
Brings chills thinking about your experience.
Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Boyd@wbta.cc
On Tern the electric bilge pump exits on the stern about a foot below the rail. This point is never under water unless I get a very big wave slap from the stern. No streaks since the bilge rarely gets any water. There is a full loop in the hose up to the underside of the deck before the hose goes thur the thru-hull. No check valve. The only problem with this system is there is a certain amount of water that flows back to the bilge when the pump cycles off. Sometimes the pump will cycle 4 or 5 times before shutting off. Never had any water get in due to the situation you describe.
Brings chills thinking about your experience.
Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
matt cawthorne wrote: Well, it started as an almost perfect sailing day. Close reaching for one of my favorite anchrages with 7.3 on the knot meter. Skies were blue, no boat traffic. One of my favorite sayings it 'isolated instances are the first sign of an epidemic'. The first instance of trouble was that the wind speed instrument died. Hmmm..... Instrument has power since the direction indicator is working. Could be the signal cable connection in the "waterproof" box in the bilge. Hey! why is there water above the floorboards? Go into flooding control mode. First priority, flip on the electric bilge pump. Now find that leak. Start by shutting down all seacocks except the cockpit drains. Too much water to find the source of the leak. Try manning the manual pumps for a while. Get some serious cardio vascular work. Water level drops some, then stops. Check the cockpit drains.....no water coming in there. Electric pump not functioning....Check the fuse...Yep, burned out. Find those fuses. Pump sort of working. Try and feel around knot meter impeller. Do not feel water there. Pump some more. Water level not dropping. OK, time to reduce sail. Furl the Yankee and tack. Pump pump pump.......Bilge is empty! No leak to be found. Tack back to find leak.....no leak. Manually start the electric bilge pump. All is ok. Woosh bilge fills up. Clamp off the bilge pump exit hose. All is ok again.?p? You guessed it. The check valve stuck open. On starboard tack the outlet is below the water line. On port tack it is not. I cleaned the check valve, but it has worn to the point that a file was required to make it reliable. Despite the fact that I keep the bilge clean, the high water found some debris that is not normally accessible and washed it down to the pumps. I have the ability to open a valve and have the engine pump out the bilge, but with the extra debris, I did not want to risk plugging up the engine. ?p?I have since added a vented loop and completed my high water alarm system. I have been thinking of changing the buzzer to a car horn. The vented loop and the check valve are mechanical systems that can get plugged up or jammed and fail. I can see two improvements at this point. One is to move the exit point to somewhere near the rail. That will leave an ugly streak when the pump runs. The other is to add a seacock to both the manual and electric pump outlets. The valve on the exit to the manual pump makes sense, but getting at it could be difficult in a pinch. A valve on the automatic pump does not make as much sense. ?p?Any other ideas? I do not want to go through that again, particularly in a storm.?p?Matt
Boyd@wbta.cc
-
matt cawthorne
streaks.
Larry,
My reason for thinking that it would create an ugly streak is that my neighbor has his discharge very high and he has a very ugly brown streak. Then again my neighbors pump runs about every 1/2 hour. The only reason my pump normally runs is when rain comes down through the inside of the mast or when burying the boats nose in the water far enough to get the spot where the chain enters the deck submerged. When I re-built the frige directed the output from the fridge through a little hand pump into the sink drain. My shower sump is drained by an impeller pump overboard. You are right on this one, I probably would not have a streak as the pump rarely runs. What is more, I could look over the edge and easily see if the pump is producing a good flow of water.
Thanks,
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
My reason for thinking that it would create an ugly streak is that my neighbor has his discharge very high and he has a very ugly brown streak. Then again my neighbors pump runs about every 1/2 hour. The only reason my pump normally runs is when rain comes down through the inside of the mast or when burying the boats nose in the water far enough to get the spot where the chain enters the deck submerged. When I re-built the frige directed the output from the fridge through a little hand pump into the sink drain. My shower sump is drained by an impeller pump overboard. You are right on this one, I probably would not have a streak as the pump rarely runs. What is more, I could look over the edge and easily see if the pump is producing a good flow of water.
Thanks,
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
-
matt cawthorne
Re: Bilge pump
John,
You have some very good points here.
I did have two additional pumps available. The shower sump drain has an impeller pump that would pump out a reasonable amount. All I would have had to do was cut the intake hose in the bilge area. The engine intake could have been used, but it was not on a strainer.
Once doing an offshore delivery of a motor boat to San Juan, I had to bail for my life all night long. I will never forget that sunset as long as I live. Unprotected wire in the bilge is a bad thing. Two of the electric pumps on that boat had the wire corrode off. When I re-wired my boat, all connections in the boat have epoxy sealed terminals and all of the wiring is tin plated. The third pump on that motor boat was plugged up with some sort of paper pulp. I believe that a spare filter was disintegrating somewhere in the bilge. The strainers were completly plugged up and useless. I think that as part of my re-work of the bilge pump system I will take a 4 inch diameter piece of copper or PVC pipe about 3 feet long and drill a few thousand 1/4 holes in it. That will be my strainer. The strainer must have lots of surface area. I always thought that keeping the bilge cleaned out would prevent the need for a large strainer. I do not believe that any longer.
The valves in a diaphram pump are good check valves, but they can get jammed open or have problems sealing. This happened to me on an aluminum bodied pump. Corrosion kept the rubber valves from operating and the pump would not prime. In that case back-flow could have happened as well. A piece of wood chip or a run-away tie-wrap end could keep a diaphragm pump from doing it's job.
What has always impressed me is how hard it is to pump a gallon of water with a manual diaphragm pump. Losses in the valve assembly and hose really make for extra work.
Thanks,
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
You have some very good points here.
I did have two additional pumps available. The shower sump drain has an impeller pump that would pump out a reasonable amount. All I would have had to do was cut the intake hose in the bilge area. The engine intake could have been used, but it was not on a strainer.
Once doing an offshore delivery of a motor boat to San Juan, I had to bail for my life all night long. I will never forget that sunset as long as I live. Unprotected wire in the bilge is a bad thing. Two of the electric pumps on that boat had the wire corrode off. When I re-wired my boat, all connections in the boat have epoxy sealed terminals and all of the wiring is tin plated. The third pump on that motor boat was plugged up with some sort of paper pulp. I believe that a spare filter was disintegrating somewhere in the bilge. The strainers were completly plugged up and useless. I think that as part of my re-work of the bilge pump system I will take a 4 inch diameter piece of copper or PVC pipe about 3 feet long and drill a few thousand 1/4 holes in it. That will be my strainer. The strainer must have lots of surface area. I always thought that keeping the bilge cleaned out would prevent the need for a large strainer. I do not believe that any longer.
The valves in a diaphram pump are good check valves, but they can get jammed open or have problems sealing. This happened to me on an aluminum bodied pump. Corrosion kept the rubber valves from operating and the pump would not prime. In that case back-flow could have happened as well. A piece of wood chip or a run-away tie-wrap end could keep a diaphragm pump from doing it's job.
What has always impressed me is how hard it is to pump a gallon of water with a manual diaphragm pump. Losses in the valve assembly and hose really make for extra work.
Thanks,
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
-
John R.
Re: Bilge pump
Matt,
You must have been a fisherman at some point! I have seen home made strainers like the PVC unit you describe more times than once on commercial fishing boats down here. A unit such as you describe can put a commercially made recreational strainer product to shame in so far as efficiency is concerned as long as it can be kept unobstructed. With that said you would need to have a screen sleeve over the outside of it to provide easy and quick cleaning so the small holes such as you indicate don't clog easily by things like water soaked paper fragments (an example being a saturated chart falling apart submerged in bilge or flooding waters). A scenario like that can plug all the small holes very quickly, just like the decomposing filter you mentioned.
A good sized raw water strainer can make a superb bilge strainer also because they are quick and easy to service by simply removing the basket. The better strainers for this purpose are the shallow ones that have a large diameter. My CD30 has a regular ITT 10" brass bilge strainer in the sump and a Vetus 5" plastic engine raw water strainer before the pump. The ITT strainer stops the larger debris from entering the hose and the Vetus stops any smaller particles that may pass through the first strainer. The Vetus allows a large filtering area in a small space and it would take considerable passage of small debris to clog it. With the clear plastic lid it is easily inspected, one wing nut to remove the lid and very quick to clean the strainer basket. Strainer systems such as this can't be done easily with the use of a centrifigul pump. It would be necessary to build custom filtering chambers to use that type pump with the same effective strainer protection.
The situation with an aluminum pump like the one you describe is a problem. Take the Whale Gusher 10 manual pumps for example. They are a beautiful pump and quite robust and strong but they have one disadvantage; the aluminum casting. In a salt water enviroment the flapper valves do fail in time due to the effects of corrosion inside the pump body. In freshwater this problem would not develop but in salt it is only a matter of time if the pump is not routinely maintained. The corrosion builds to the point that the valves lose their sealing surface. Same could happen in an aluminum bodied electric diaphram pump. The ITT Pars are a plastic bodied pump however and this is not an issue. With a proper strainer setup (multiple stage) the chance of a diaphram pump valve jamming open would be pretty remote but never say never. Nothing is perfect that's for sure and that's why the big bucket can pay huge dividends if need be.
I once had a chart disintegrate in a flooded bilge on someones boat and that experience taught me a huge lesson about what can happen and how quick it can happen. A situation similar to what you went through. We are both well aware of the prudence in having multiple efficient dependable pumping sources on board.
Your description of the bilge wiring problem you went through is exactly the reason why I'm a proponent of the *primary* bilge pump systems being mounted high and dry with absolutely no wiring in the bilge except to a bilge switch. I don't like mechanical float switches either because the wiring is usually submerged most of the time and they jam; the only bilge switches I would ever recommend to customers were the electronic or air bell types. In particular I swear by the Water Witch brand which is mounted in a fashion where by the wiring is well clear of any water unless the bilge floods completely.
Proper sealing of wiring and quality components as you advocate can't be stressed enough.
Manual gusher pumps can be a hell of a lot of work to keep up with a leaking water flow. I have done this before and it is very exhausting and should not be relied upon as sole back up except in the case of minor leaks. I had a difficult time keeping up with a leak from a stuffing box once just trying to get a boat to the yard for a haulout and that was only a 1/3 mile trip.
You must have been a fisherman at some point! I have seen home made strainers like the PVC unit you describe more times than once on commercial fishing boats down here. A unit such as you describe can put a commercially made recreational strainer product to shame in so far as efficiency is concerned as long as it can be kept unobstructed. With that said you would need to have a screen sleeve over the outside of it to provide easy and quick cleaning so the small holes such as you indicate don't clog easily by things like water soaked paper fragments (an example being a saturated chart falling apart submerged in bilge or flooding waters). A scenario like that can plug all the small holes very quickly, just like the decomposing filter you mentioned.
A good sized raw water strainer can make a superb bilge strainer also because they are quick and easy to service by simply removing the basket. The better strainers for this purpose are the shallow ones that have a large diameter. My CD30 has a regular ITT 10" brass bilge strainer in the sump and a Vetus 5" plastic engine raw water strainer before the pump. The ITT strainer stops the larger debris from entering the hose and the Vetus stops any smaller particles that may pass through the first strainer. The Vetus allows a large filtering area in a small space and it would take considerable passage of small debris to clog it. With the clear plastic lid it is easily inspected, one wing nut to remove the lid and very quick to clean the strainer basket. Strainer systems such as this can't be done easily with the use of a centrifigul pump. It would be necessary to build custom filtering chambers to use that type pump with the same effective strainer protection.
The situation with an aluminum pump like the one you describe is a problem. Take the Whale Gusher 10 manual pumps for example. They are a beautiful pump and quite robust and strong but they have one disadvantage; the aluminum casting. In a salt water enviroment the flapper valves do fail in time due to the effects of corrosion inside the pump body. In freshwater this problem would not develop but in salt it is only a matter of time if the pump is not routinely maintained. The corrosion builds to the point that the valves lose their sealing surface. Same could happen in an aluminum bodied electric diaphram pump. The ITT Pars are a plastic bodied pump however and this is not an issue. With a proper strainer setup (multiple stage) the chance of a diaphram pump valve jamming open would be pretty remote but never say never. Nothing is perfect that's for sure and that's why the big bucket can pay huge dividends if need be.
I once had a chart disintegrate in a flooded bilge on someones boat and that experience taught me a huge lesson about what can happen and how quick it can happen. A situation similar to what you went through. We are both well aware of the prudence in having multiple efficient dependable pumping sources on board.
Your description of the bilge wiring problem you went through is exactly the reason why I'm a proponent of the *primary* bilge pump systems being mounted high and dry with absolutely no wiring in the bilge except to a bilge switch. I don't like mechanical float switches either because the wiring is usually submerged most of the time and they jam; the only bilge switches I would ever recommend to customers were the electronic or air bell types. In particular I swear by the Water Witch brand which is mounted in a fashion where by the wiring is well clear of any water unless the bilge floods completely.
Proper sealing of wiring and quality components as you advocate can't be stressed enough.
Manual gusher pumps can be a hell of a lot of work to keep up with a leaking water flow. I have done this before and it is very exhausting and should not be relied upon as sole back up except in the case of minor leaks. I had a difficult time keeping up with a leak from a stuffing box once just trying to get a boat to the yard for a haulout and that was only a 1/3 mile trip.
matt cawthorne wrote: You have some very good points here.
I did have two additional pumps available. The shower sump drain has an impeller pump that would pump out a reasonable amount. All I would have had to do was cut the intake hose in the bilge area. The engine intake could have been used, but it was not on a strainer.
Once doing an offshore delivery of a motor boat to San Juan, I had to bail for my life all night long. I will never forget that sunset as long as I live. Unprotected wire in the bilge is a bad thing. Two of the electric pumps on that boat had the wire corrode off. When I re-wired my boat, all connections in the boat have epoxy sealed terminals and all of the wiring is tin plated. The third pump on that motor boat was plugged up with some sort of paper pulp. I believe that a spare filter was disintegrating somewhere in the bilge. The strainers were completly plugged up and useless. I think that as part of my re-work of the bilge pump system I will take a 4 inch diameter piece of copper or PVC pipe about 3 feet long and drill a few thousand 1/4 holes in it. That will be my strainer. The strainer must have lots of surface area. I always thought that keeping the bilge cleaned out would prevent the need for a large strainer. I do not believe that any longer.
The valves in a diaphram pump are good check valves, but they can get jammed open or have problems sealing. This happened to me on an aluminum bodied pump. Corrosion kept the rubber valves from operating and the pump would not prime. In that case back-flow could have happened as well. A piece of wood chip or a run-away tie-wrap end could keep a diaphragm pump from doing it's job.
What has always impressed me is how hard it is to pump a gallon of water with a manual diaphragm pump. Losses in the valve assembly and hose really make for extra work.
Thanks,
Matt
-
matt cawthorne
Re: Bilge pump
John,
I like the idea of a strainer with a basket, but am afraid that most of them have too little surface area. The pulp example would instantly overwhelm most of them. The part that I like best about a strainer basket is that if junk is in there you can clean it out. With a standard 'strum box' type of strainer when you clean (in a flooding situation) you are leaving the junk in the bilge. It will soon clog things up again.
I, too, have pressure switches. One for the pump, and one for the alarm. They are mounted just below the floor. I now see that they are too close to the water. They worked while submerged, but I will be moving them up to a height that will make it a moot point if they are in the water. The connection to the bilge will be with a long piece of hose that carries the pressure from the bell.
Thanks for the ideas.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
I like the idea of a strainer with a basket, but am afraid that most of them have too little surface area. The pulp example would instantly overwhelm most of them. The part that I like best about a strainer basket is that if junk is in there you can clean it out. With a standard 'strum box' type of strainer when you clean (in a flooding situation) you are leaving the junk in the bilge. It will soon clog things up again.
I, too, have pressure switches. One for the pump, and one for the alarm. They are mounted just below the floor. I now see that they are too close to the water. They worked while submerged, but I will be moving them up to a height that will make it a moot point if they are in the water. The connection to the bilge will be with a long piece of hose that carries the pressure from the bell.
Thanks for the ideas.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net