David Pascoe is an accomplished and accredited Yacht Surveyor of some note. He has written several good books on surveying your own boats etc.etc., and also maintains a superior web site full of great information on selecting the right boat. Granted that most of his work appears to be in the powerboat arena, there are some lessons to be learned. To wit: This article scares the S--T!! out of me, and it should you too if you understand the implications and directions that it seems to be indicating that some of the boat industry has gone since 1990.
Folks..a laminate hull is not what you think it is anymore. True, they do use Fiberglass woven roving still..exactly one ply of it..on the inside, where it would show thru if you were inspecting it, but it provides no strength on the inside of the laminate..it should be on the outside. So what is the rest of this matrix made up of?? You will not believe your eyes...a very crushable and fryable material that resembles dried out bondo to some extent..and David Pascoe calls it "Hamburger Helper" since the product is not known to anyone, -and a 1/8 in. layer of gel coat. That's it. Where in the world is the strength in that matrix? There is none..a fist could penetrate thru this matrix easily, given enough tries, and a bottle of excedrin.
This angers me a tad, as the buying public will have NO idea what they are buying here, assuming that they are getting a quality boat and a quality layup. Afterall, it says it is made from High tech laminates etc. and they can see the woven roving showing thru the interior (seems intentionally designed to deceive).
Read this article and be forwarned. Be glad that Cape Dory was a reputatble company that resisted the greed syndrome that seems to have taken over the boat industry. 'Nuff Said...
demers@sgi.com
They Sure Don't Build Them Like They Used To...
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Bill Goldsmith
Yikes!
I read the article. I am no engineer or materials scientist, but I do remember a lesson I learned from my college roommate who was studying civil engineering. He was studying the strength of concrete vs. steel reinforced concrete. I seem to recall that the strength of steel reinforced concrete was synergistic, i.e greater than the sum of the the strenghth of concrete plus the strength of steel. Engineers on the board please confirm or refute this.
Assuming I remembered that correctly, isn't Glass Reinforced Plastic subject to the same phenomenon? If so, then the strength of pure cured resin would be a mere fraction of resin cured around glass strands.
Purely aside from the safety issues of those newer "laminates" I also worry that they'll drag us all down, i.e the lowered reputation of so-called "fiberglass" boats will tar REAL GRP boats with the same brush and affect the value of older, heavily laid-up quality designs like CD.
Bill Goldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance
goldy@bestweb.net
Assuming I remembered that correctly, isn't Glass Reinforced Plastic subject to the same phenomenon? If so, then the strength of pure cured resin would be a mere fraction of resin cured around glass strands.
Purely aside from the safety issues of those newer "laminates" I also worry that they'll drag us all down, i.e the lowered reputation of so-called "fiberglass" boats will tar REAL GRP boats with the same brush and affect the value of older, heavily laid-up quality designs like CD.
Bill Goldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance
Larry DeMers wrote: David Pascoe is an accomplished and accredited Yacht Surveyor of some note. He has written several good books on surveying your own boats etc.etc., and also maintains a superior web site full of great information on selecting the right boat. Granted that most of his work appears to be in the powerboat arena, there are some lessons to be learned. To wit: This article scares the S--T!! out of me, and it should you too if you understand the implications and directions that it seems to be indicating that some of the boat industry has gone since 1990.
Folks..a laminate hull is not what you think it is anymore. True, they do use Fiberglass woven roving still..exactly one ply of it..on the inside, where it would show thru if you were inspecting it, but it provides no strength on the inside of the laminate..it should be on the outside. So what is the rest of this matrix made up of?? You will not believe your eyes...a very crushable and fryable material that resembles dried out bondo to some extent..and David Pascoe calls it "Hamburger Helper" since the product is not known to anyone, -and a 1/8 in. layer of gel coat. That's it. Where in the world is the strength in that matrix? There is none..a fist could penetrate thru this matrix easily, given enough tries, and a bottle of excedrin.
This angers me a tad, as the buying public will have NO idea what they are buying here, assuming that they are getting a quality boat and a quality layup. Afterall, it says it is made from High tech laminates etc. and they can see the woven roving showing thru the interior (seems intentionally designed to deceive).
Read this article and be forwarned. Be glad that Cape Dory was a reputatble company that resisted the greed syndrome that seems to have taken over the boat industry. 'Nuff Said...
goldy@bestweb.net
-
Richard Hill
Re: They Sure Don't Build Them Like They Used To...
This is a good reason to save any plugs you cut out to install a thru-hull fitting. Show those to the surveyor. I have some plugs from my Bristol 32 that are 1/2 inch solid fiberglass (real FRP).
captrahill@comcast.net
Larry DeMers wrote: Folks..a laminate hull is not what you think it is anymore. True, they do use Fiberglass woven roving still..exactly one ply of it..on the inside, where it would show thru if you were inspecting it, but it provides no strength on the inside of the laminate..it should be on the outside. So what is the rest of this matrix made up of?? You will not believe your eyes...a very crushable and fryable material that resembles dried out bondo to some extent..and David Pascoe calls it "Hamburger Helper" since the product is not known to anyone, -and a 1/8 in. layer of gel coat. That's it. Where in the world is the strength in that matrix? There is none..a fist could penetrate thru this matrix easily, given enough tries, and a bottle of excedrin.
This angers me a tad, as the buying public will have NO idea what they are buying here, assuming that they are getting a quality boat and a quality layup. Afterall, it says it is made from High tech laminates etc. and they can see the woven roving showing thru the interior (seems intentionally designed to deceive).
Read this article and be forwarned. Be glad that Cape Dory was a reputatble company that resisted the greed syndrome that seems to have taken over the boat industry. 'Nuff Said...
captrahill@comcast.net
-
Keith
Re: Yikes!
Quite to the contrary, I expect such information will increase the
value of our good ole Cape Dories.
kwoodlaw@arkansas.net
value of our good ole Cape Dories.
kwoodlaw@arkansas.net
-
Serge Zimberoff
Oh my goodness...
Larry,
You have done a great service by this post, which doesn't surprise me knowing you. Obviously users of this board care about boat quality and this gives all of us real facts (albeit horrifying ones) to back up the effort we put into our boats to keep them sound and looking good.
Serge
Typhoon #1700
'Cloning Around'
serge@srtrop.com
You have done a great service by this post, which doesn't surprise me knowing you. Obviously users of this board care about boat quality and this gives all of us real facts (albeit horrifying ones) to back up the effort we put into our boats to keep them sound and looking good.
Serge
Typhoon #1700
'Cloning Around'
serge@srtrop.com
-
Bob Grabham
Re: They Sure Don't Build Them Like They Used To...
Quite a blistering comment on the state of boat building today. I recently installed a thru-hull fitting for air conditioning and the plug that came out of the hole saw was nearly 5/8" of solid laminates. That kind of thickness gives me a good feeling.
Bob Grabham
Hunky Dory
CD-36, # 140
Topping, VA
grabhamb@chesterfield.gov
Bob Grabham
Hunky Dory
CD-36, # 140
Topping, VA
grabhamb@chesterfield.gov
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Yikes!
Keith is right..it will help to sell our boats, because they ARE real FRP, not some junk yard assemblage of "Hamburger Helper" and gel coat..neither of which are structurally important. This is a recent phenomenon..ie: since 1990. So the news of these failures will eventually circulate and will cause people to inquire more closely about the laminate schedule and composition before buying. This will move our boats up the list of desireables, I believe.
Makes you a little sick to think of the mentality that goes into a company taking these liberties with our safety. It almost says some form of licensing or compliance to some standards for manufacturers would be needed to prevent them from ruining the boating market. Eliminate FRP and what is left to build in economically?
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
demers@sgi.com
Makes you a little sick to think of the mentality that goes into a company taking these liberties with our safety. It almost says some form of licensing or compliance to some standards for manufacturers would be needed to prevent them from ruining the boating market. Eliminate FRP and what is left to build in economically?
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Bill Goldsmith wrote: I read the article. I am no engineer or materials scientist, but I do remember a lesson I learned from my college roommate who was studying civil engineering. He was studying the strength of concrete vs. steel reinforced concrete. I seem to recall that the strength of steel reinforced concrete was synergistic, i.e greater than the sum of the the strenghth of concrete plus the strength of steel. Engineers on the board please confirm or refute this.
Assuming I remembered that correctly, isn't Glass Reinforced Plastic subject to the same phenomenon? If so, then the strength of pure cured resin would be a mere fraction of resin cured around glass strands.
Purely aside from the safety issues of those newer "laminates" I also worry that they'll drag us all down, i.e the lowered reputation of so-called "fiberglass" boats will tar REAL GRP boats with the same brush and affect the value of older, heavily laid-up quality designs like CD.
Bill Goldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance
Larry DeMers wrote: David Pascoe is an accomplished and accredited Yacht Surveyor of some note. He has written several good books on surveying your own boats etc.etc., and also maintains a superior web site full of great information on selecting the right boat. Granted that most of his work appears to be in the powerboat arena, there are some lessons to be learned. To wit: This article scares the S--T!! out of me, and it should you too if you understand the implications and directions that it seems to be indicating that some of the boat industry has gone since 1990.
Folks..a laminate hull is not what you think it is anymore. True, they do use Fiberglass woven roving still..exactly one ply of it..on the inside, where it would show thru if you were inspecting it, but it provides no strength on the inside of the laminate..it should be on the outside. So what is the rest of this matrix made up of?? You will not believe your eyes...a very crushable and fryable material that resembles dried out bondo to some extent..and David Pascoe calls it "Hamburger Helper" since the product is not known to anyone, -and a 1/8 in. layer of gel coat. That's it. Where in the world is the strength in that matrix? There is none..a fist could penetrate thru this matrix easily, given enough tries, and a bottle of excedrin.
This angers me a tad, as the buying public will have NO idea what they are buying here, assuming that they are getting a quality boat and a quality layup. Afterall, it says it is made from High tech laminates etc. and they can see the woven roving showing thru the interior (seems intentionally designed to deceive).
Read this article and be forwarned. Be glad that Cape Dory was a reputatble company that resisted the greed syndrome that seems to have taken over the boat industry. 'Nuff Said...
demers@sgi.com
-
Don Carr
Wood almost is a better alternative. Cold mould
Larry et al; Then this reinforces the quality of boats from the UK, Australia and New Zealand. The cold molded boats may actually be more desireable at least as far as current production.
IMHO
carrds@us.ibm.com
IMHO
carrds@us.ibm.com
-
Don Carr
Wood almost is a better alternative. Cold mould
Larry et al; Then this reinforces the quality of boats from the UK, Australia and New Zealand. The cold molded boats may actually be more desireable at least as far as current production.
IMHO
carrds@us.ibm.com
IMHO
carrds@us.ibm.com
-
Warren Kaplan
Re: They Sure Don't Build Them Like They Used To...
Larry,
Certainly a revelation that brings revulsion to the reader. I wonder how "widespread" these substandard boat building practice have become? Is this just happening with new builders who have opened for business since 1990? Maybe not since Sea Ray is an old line boat that "used" to be thought of as a quality product. But then again "Mr. SeaRay" may have sold the company to a conglomerate that is just interested in the bottom line. So Sea Ray today isn't the Sea Ray of old.
But what about quality boat builders. Hinckley, Morris Yachts and what about Robinhood Marine? Surely there are still some that have "old fashion pride" in producing quality. If you look at the literature (or website) or other ads for these companies they often tell you exactly what the construction materials and specs are for their hulls, decks, etc. I find it hard to believe that some of these really old line high quality companies would risk their reputations, and reputations that command a premium price when buying new, on such practices. I, too, often look at Mr Pascoe's reviews but I think this time he gives the impression that ALL boat builders build their new boats that way. I sure hope not.
What does bother me is this. I, like many of you I suspect, get a multitude of sailing magazines and publications each month. Invariably there is a section entitled something like "New Boat Review". There, some marine architects/sailboat mavens/circumnavigators and the like review new boats. I know these publications depend heavily on these builders for advertising dollars but did you EVER read even one sentence that you could probably hole the hull if a broom handle accidently hit the topsides? I've read comments like, "the bunks could be longer or the engine access is impossible" but never once a criticism of the structural integrity of a boat. The Gods of Commerce rule all I guess.
In any event, Sine Qua Non is the winner in all this. I will redouble my efforts to keep this irreplacable Cape Dory jewel in A-1 Shape. We Cape Dory captains are a very lucky few!
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166, of that quality year 1980
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
Certainly a revelation that brings revulsion to the reader. I wonder how "widespread" these substandard boat building practice have become? Is this just happening with new builders who have opened for business since 1990? Maybe not since Sea Ray is an old line boat that "used" to be thought of as a quality product. But then again "Mr. SeaRay" may have sold the company to a conglomerate that is just interested in the bottom line. So Sea Ray today isn't the Sea Ray of old.
But what about quality boat builders. Hinckley, Morris Yachts and what about Robinhood Marine? Surely there are still some that have "old fashion pride" in producing quality. If you look at the literature (or website) or other ads for these companies they often tell you exactly what the construction materials and specs are for their hulls, decks, etc. I find it hard to believe that some of these really old line high quality companies would risk their reputations, and reputations that command a premium price when buying new, on such practices. I, too, often look at Mr Pascoe's reviews but I think this time he gives the impression that ALL boat builders build their new boats that way. I sure hope not.
What does bother me is this. I, like many of you I suspect, get a multitude of sailing magazines and publications each month. Invariably there is a section entitled something like "New Boat Review". There, some marine architects/sailboat mavens/circumnavigators and the like review new boats. I know these publications depend heavily on these builders for advertising dollars but did you EVER read even one sentence that you could probably hole the hull if a broom handle accidently hit the topsides? I've read comments like, "the bunks could be longer or the engine access is impossible" but never once a criticism of the structural integrity of a boat. The Gods of Commerce rule all I guess.
In any event, Sine Qua Non is the winner in all this. I will redouble my efforts to keep this irreplacable Cape Dory jewel in A-1 Shape. We Cape Dory captains are a very lucky few!
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166, of that quality year 1980
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
-
Larry DeMers
Re: They Sure Don't Build Them Like They Used To...
Warren,
I doubt that Hinkley, Saga, Morris et al are participating in their own demise this way..they are quality folks and their boat prices reflect that committment to quality. But the other half of the market, where us mere mortals feed,is under pressure to compete with the other competitor. If one finds a way to cheapen his product by 25%, then the competitors either wait out the publics rejection and suffer thru the downturn in business until the news of the other competitors problems reach the public ears...or you participate in the same practice to stay alive. This to me is one of the great problems with Capitalism..the end game, which we appear to be in at this time, in a number of sectors. Unabashed Capitalists will vehemently disagree nodoubt, but one only has to open their collective eyes to see how it is playing out now, in front of us. How long before there is one super-large corporation that owns everything? (I am not kidding here)
The end game of Capitalism is "I own it all-you own nothing". Historicaly, competition came and went and kept this from happening. But with the megamergers of the last 10 years, competition is getting thinned out considerably. so the pressure to produce something of quality so that you can differentiate yourselves from the competition is remarkably eased if not eliminated. This then allows them to pay more attention to that bottom line, and here is where we get it in the shorts, because the cheapening that goes on is hidden from us usually, until a failure of some note occurs.
While I am a Capitalist and participate within this system at several levels, I am aware of these problems, and that things are far different now than ever before in our history.. and htat we have a lot to be very concerned about as Corporate America takes us over.
Ok..I guess this is approaching a lecture again, so I will stand down.
Good Winds and Mild Seas,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Trying like heck to imagine what spring was like...more snow!! ugh.
demers@sgi.com
I doubt that Hinkley, Saga, Morris et al are participating in their own demise this way..they are quality folks and their boat prices reflect that committment to quality. But the other half of the market, where us mere mortals feed,is under pressure to compete with the other competitor. If one finds a way to cheapen his product by 25%, then the competitors either wait out the publics rejection and suffer thru the downturn in business until the news of the other competitors problems reach the public ears...or you participate in the same practice to stay alive. This to me is one of the great problems with Capitalism..the end game, which we appear to be in at this time, in a number of sectors. Unabashed Capitalists will vehemently disagree nodoubt, but one only has to open their collective eyes to see how it is playing out now, in front of us. How long before there is one super-large corporation that owns everything? (I am not kidding here)
The end game of Capitalism is "I own it all-you own nothing". Historicaly, competition came and went and kept this from happening. But with the megamergers of the last 10 years, competition is getting thinned out considerably. so the pressure to produce something of quality so that you can differentiate yourselves from the competition is remarkably eased if not eliminated. This then allows them to pay more attention to that bottom line, and here is where we get it in the shorts, because the cheapening that goes on is hidden from us usually, until a failure of some note occurs.
While I am a Capitalist and participate within this system at several levels, I am aware of these problems, and that things are far different now than ever before in our history.. and htat we have a lot to be very concerned about as Corporate America takes us over.
Ok..I guess this is approaching a lecture again, so I will stand down.
Good Winds and Mild Seas,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Trying like heck to imagine what spring was like...more snow!! ugh.
Warren Kaplan wrote: Larry,
Certainly a revelation that brings revulsion to the reader. I wonder how "widespread" these substandard boat building practice have become? Is this just happening with new builders who have opened for business since 1990? Maybe not since Sea Ray is an old line boat that "used" to be thought of as a quality product. But then again "Mr. SeaRay" may have sold the company to a conglomerate that is just interested in the bottom line. So Sea Ray today isn't the Sea Ray of old.
But what about quality boat builders. Hinckley, Morris Yachts and what about Robinhood Marine? Surely there are still some that have "old fashion pride" in producing quality. If you look at the literature (or website) or other ads for these companies they often tell you exactly what the construction materials and specs are for their hulls, decks, etc. I find it hard to believe that some of these really old line high quality companies would risk their reputations, and reputations that command a premium price when buying new, on such practices. I, too, often look at Mr Pascoe's reviews but I think this time he gives the impression that ALL boat builders build their new boats that way. I sure hope not.
What does bother me is this. I, like many of you I suspect, get a multitude of sailing magazines and publications each month. Invariably there is a section entitled something like "New Boat Review". There, some marine architects/sailboat mavens/circumnavigators and the like review new boats. I know these publications depend heavily on these builders for advertising dollars but did you EVER read even one sentence that you could probably hole the hull if a broom handle accidently hit the topsides? I've read comments like, "the bunks could be longer or the engine access is impossible" but never once a criticism of the structural integrity of a boat. The Gods of Commerce rule all I guess.
In any event, Sine Qua Non is the winner in all this. I will redouble my efforts to keep this irreplacable Cape Dory jewel in A-1 Shape. We Cape Dory captains are a very lucky few!
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166, of that quality year 1980
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
demers@sgi.com
-
Ken Coit
Not to Stray Too Far, But...
I have worked for some of those corporate giants: Honeywell Information Systems, General Electric Computer Department, ITT Courier, Philco-Ford, and even Fujitsu Network Switching. I belive that all but the last are gone, and most were not consumed by other giants. They fall all over themselves trying to optimize the bottom line when they should be optimizing their customer's experience, or they never do optimize the bottom line either because they have too much trouble getting any consistent level of customer satisfaction at all.
I am not worried about capitalism failing so long as there are entrepeneural people like the founders of Sun, Adobe, Parker Boats, Grady White, Cape Dory and Robinhood (Andy Vavolotis) around to make a point when one is needed. Surely the less-than-honest boatbuilders will go by the wayside if the consuming public really cares about quality for the $$. On the other hand, I would be very worried if we had a state-run boat building company to run all the competition off with laws while building boats for profit.
NC State University wants to build a 4-star hotel on campus - can you believe it? The private sector can't figure out how to make money at it, so the administration feels obligated! Don't get me going on that!!
Ken
parfaitNOSPAM@nc..rr.com
I am not worried about capitalism failing so long as there are entrepeneural people like the founders of Sun, Adobe, Parker Boats, Grady White, Cape Dory and Robinhood (Andy Vavolotis) around to make a point when one is needed. Surely the less-than-honest boatbuilders will go by the wayside if the consuming public really cares about quality for the $$. On the other hand, I would be very worried if we had a state-run boat building company to run all the competition off with laws while building boats for profit.
NC State University wants to build a 4-star hotel on campus - can you believe it? The private sector can't figure out how to make money at it, so the administration feels obligated! Don't get me going on that!!
Ken
Larry DeMers wrote: Warren,
I doubt that Hinkley, Saga, Morris et al are participating in their own demise this way..they are quality folks and their boat prices reflect that committment to quality. But the other half of the market, where us mere mortals feed,is under pressure to compete with the other competitor. If one finds a way to cheapen his product by 25%, then the competitors either wait out the publics rejection and suffer thru the downturn in business until the news of the other competitors problems reach the public ears...or you participate in the same practice to stay alive. This to me is one of the great problems with Capitalism..the end game, which we appear to be in at this time, in a number of sectors. Unabashed Capitalists will vehemently disagree nodoubt, but one only has to open their collective eyes to see how it is playing out now, in front of us. How long before there is one super-large corporation that owns everything? (I am not kidding here)
The end game of Capitalism is "I own it all-you own nothing". Historicaly, competition came and went and kept this from happening. But with the megamergers of the last 10 years, competition is getting thinned out considerably. so the pressure to produce something of quality so that you can differentiate yourselves from the competition is remarkably eased if not eliminated. This then allows them to pay more attention to that bottom line, and here is where we get it in the shorts, because the cheapening that goes on is hidden from us usually, until a failure of some note occurs.
While I am a Capitalist and participate within this system at several levels, I am aware of these problems, and that things are far different now than ever before in our history.. and htat we have a lot to be very concerned about as Corporate America takes us over.
Ok..I guess this is approaching a lecture again, so I will stand down.
Good Winds and Mild Seas,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Trying like heck to imagine what spring was like...more snow!! ugh.
Warren Kaplan wrote: Larry,
Certainly a revelation that brings revulsion to the reader. I wonder how "widespread" these substandard boat building practice have become? Is this just happening with new builders who have opened for business since 1990? Maybe not since Sea Ray is an old line boat that "used" to be thought of as a quality product. But then again "Mr. SeaRay" may have sold the company to a conglomerate that is just interested in the bottom line. So Sea Ray today isn't the Sea Ray of old.
But what about quality boat builders. Hinckley, Morris Yachts and what about Robinhood Marine? Surely there are still some that have "old fashion pride" in producing quality. If you look at the literature (or website) or other ads for these companies they often tell you exactly what the construction materials and specs are for their hulls, decks, etc. I find it hard to believe that some of these really old line high quality companies would risk their reputations, and reputations that command a premium price when buying new, on such practices. I, too, often look at Mr Pascoe's reviews but I think this time he gives the impression that ALL boat builders build their new boats that way. I sure hope not.
What does bother me is this. I, like many of you I suspect, get a multitude of sailing magazines and publications each month. Invariably there is a section entitled something like "New Boat Review". There, some marine architects/sailboat mavens/circumnavigators and the like review new boats. I know these publications depend heavily on these builders for advertising dollars but did you EVER read even one sentence that you could probably hole the hull if a broom handle accidently hit the topsides? I've read comments like, "the bunks could be longer or the engine access is impossible" but never once a criticism of the structural integrity of a boat. The Gods of Commerce rule all I guess.
In any event, Sine Qua Non is the winner in all this. I will redouble my efforts to keep this irreplacable Cape Dory jewel in A-1 Shape. We Cape Dory captains are a very lucky few!
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166, of that quality year 1980
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
parfaitNOSPAM@nc..rr.com
-
Stan W.
"Frozen Snot"
I forget who it was, but a famous designer of wooden boats once referred to fiberglass as "frozen snot." These new boats give new meaning to the phrase.
smwheatley@capecod.net
smwheatley@capecod.net
-
Lou Ostendorff
Re: "Frozen Snot"
Hello Stan;
This is straight out of Dave Gerr's book, The Nature of boats...BTW, he also makes mention of a boat fire that started from an electrical short, and ended up being fueled by a bottle of naphtha...on a different note, can you determine hull coring by using a density meter or densitometer? I've seen some of these used by various Departments of Highway in testing roadway densities, but these units are big, bulky, heavy, and NUCLEAR !!!
Lou Ostendorff
CD25D Karma
Berthed in Havelock, NC
louosten@ipass.net
This is straight out of Dave Gerr's book, The Nature of boats...BTW, he also makes mention of a boat fire that started from an electrical short, and ended up being fueled by a bottle of naphtha...on a different note, can you determine hull coring by using a density meter or densitometer? I've seen some of these used by various Departments of Highway in testing roadway densities, but these units are big, bulky, heavy, and NUCLEAR !!!
Lou Ostendorff
CD25D Karma
Berthed in Havelock, NC
louosten@ipass.net