Hi folks_
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
cstalker@cheshire.net
Transmission While Sailing
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Ken Coit
Re: Transmission While Sailing
Clay,
I think the consensus on this board is reverse and because it places the same forces on the tranny as if it were driving the boat forward.
Keep on sailing, but in reverse,
Ken Coit
CD/36 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
I think the consensus on this board is reverse and because it places the same forces on the tranny as if it were driving the boat forward.
Keep on sailing, but in reverse,
Ken Coit
CD/36 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC
Clay Stalker wrote: Hi folks_
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
-
Tom
Re: Transmission While Sailing
I agree - reverse. The things that go first in these trannies are the clutch plates. Freewheeling in neutral tends to glaze the surface of these plates, hastening their demise. The CD manual says to put it in forward, but the Hurth dealer told me to ignore this as it's bad into and surely will hasten the demise of your tranny. I don't know about Volvo engines as I think they have a cone type clutch, but with the Universal engines with Hurth transmissions with the flat disc type clutch, reverse is your best option unless you have a shaft lock to keep the prop from turning over.
TomCambria@mindspring.com
Clay Stalker wrote: Hi folks_
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
TomCambria@mindspring.com
-
Murray Glue
Re: Transmission While Sailing
Reverse works best with my Volvo 2002. In neutral the gearbox heats up very quickly, presimably without lubrication. In forward the prop still creeps. In reverse it is locked solid, but can cause an occassional problem in selecting neutral again to start the engine.
Murray Glue
CD30 Dayspring
Nelson
New Zealand
murray@offshoretechnical.com
Murray Glue
CD30 Dayspring
Nelson
New Zealand
murray@offshoretechnical.com
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will parker
Re: Transmission While Sailing
My view is contrary to others [regarding Hurth transmission only]. Everthing I have read from the Hurth people (advertising, manuals, internet, etc), says that no damage occurs if transmission is left in neutral, i.e. freewheeing seems to be no problem. However, the question could be best resolved by putting the question directly to the Hurth company.
Freewheeling would also appear to offer less resistance to water flow and less likely to impede boat speed.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD 30
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
whildenp@earthlink.net
Freewheeling would also appear to offer less resistance to water flow and less likely to impede boat speed.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD 30
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker wrote: Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
whildenp@earthlink.net
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Transmission While Sailing
Will,
I don't think so.
If you are assuming a fixed pitch two bladed prop on a Cape Dory, and also assume that the owner has taken the time to align the prop shaft so that when the engine lies between compression strokes, the prop is aligned vertically behind the deadwood, then there is no contest of course, as in one case, the prop is sweeping the entire slipstream of water as it rotates. Energy is taken from this slipstream to rotate the prop, which slows the boat down in the process.
In the other case where the prop is hidden behind the deadwood (not really wood, but it still carries this name), there is little to no resistance felt and no speed loss.
Where the boat has a three bladed prop, it gets more complicated and the answer is non-intuitive. This topic was discussed for several weeks on rec.boats.cruising a while back, with several N.A.'s leading the discussion, and showing the math why the freewheeling prop is actually more resistance than a fixed 3 bladed prop, with two blades out in the waterflow. I do not understand the math well enough to discuss it, but came away with the decision that I will agree that it is not a good practice for several reasons, chief among them being it is simply slower on the boat, harder on the transmission which *is not lubricated* during this freewheeling, and harder on the cutlass bearing which is seeing these additional rotations speed up it's own demise all that much faster. There is nothing gained by doing this, and quite a lot lost.
My advice is to lock it in reverse. This is the position I have seen most manufacturers recommend.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Sailing the Apostle Islands..if the infernal snow/cold would stop!! (We're still in January weather here -had our April weather back in January..tell me that the weather isn't horribly screwed up!)
demers@sgi.com
I don't think so.
If you are assuming a fixed pitch two bladed prop on a Cape Dory, and also assume that the owner has taken the time to align the prop shaft so that when the engine lies between compression strokes, the prop is aligned vertically behind the deadwood, then there is no contest of course, as in one case, the prop is sweeping the entire slipstream of water as it rotates. Energy is taken from this slipstream to rotate the prop, which slows the boat down in the process.
In the other case where the prop is hidden behind the deadwood (not really wood, but it still carries this name), there is little to no resistance felt and no speed loss.
Where the boat has a three bladed prop, it gets more complicated and the answer is non-intuitive. This topic was discussed for several weeks on rec.boats.cruising a while back, with several N.A.'s leading the discussion, and showing the math why the freewheeling prop is actually more resistance than a fixed 3 bladed prop, with two blades out in the waterflow. I do not understand the math well enough to discuss it, but came away with the decision that I will agree that it is not a good practice for several reasons, chief among them being it is simply slower on the boat, harder on the transmission which *is not lubricated* during this freewheeling, and harder on the cutlass bearing which is seeing these additional rotations speed up it's own demise all that much faster. There is nothing gained by doing this, and quite a lot lost.
My advice is to lock it in reverse. This is the position I have seen most manufacturers recommend.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Sailing the Apostle Islands..if the infernal snow/cold would stop!! (We're still in January weather here -had our April weather back in January..tell me that the weather isn't horribly screwed up!)
will parker wrote: My view is contrary to others [regarding Hurth transmission only]. Everthing I have read from the Hurth people (advertising, manuals, internet, etc), says that no damage occurs if transmission is left in neutral, i.e. freewheeing seems to be no problem. However, the question could be best resolved by putting the question directly to the Hurth company.
Freewheeling would also appear to offer less resistance to water flow and less likely to impede boat speed.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD 30
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker wrote: Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
demers@sgi.com
-
Clay Stalker
Re: Transmission While Sailing
Many thanks, folks! As usual, this board comes through for me! I appreciate your time.Clay Stalker wrote: Hi folks_
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
Clay
cstalker@cheshire.net
-
Chris Schnell
Another Lesson Learned & Another Question
You can always tell the "newbies" on the block....ME! I'd never heard this discussion and for the past 11 months that we've owned MADNESS III I've always sailed her in neutral. I had no clue I'd be wearing on the tranny, but it makes perfect sense....ANOTHER LESSON LEARNED off this fantastic board!!!!!!
My other question is: do you actually engage reverse with the engine running and then turn her off (now that you're under sail) or do you turn off the engine and then engage her into reverse?
May seem petty, but I'm wondering about strain of moving forward under sail while backing down the engine/tranny.
Full Sails & Calm Seas,
Chris Schnell & Dale Hampton
s/v MADNESS III, CD30 #235
Southport, NC
swabbie@compaq.net
My other question is: do you actually engage reverse with the engine running and then turn her off (now that you're under sail) or do you turn off the engine and then engage her into reverse?
May seem petty, but I'm wondering about strain of moving forward under sail while backing down the engine/tranny.
Full Sails & Calm Seas,
Chris Schnell & Dale Hampton
s/v MADNESS III, CD30 #235
Southport, NC
swabbie@compaq.net
-
Ed Haley
Re: Transmission While Sailing
In addition to the fine points Captain DeMers brings out about the problems associated with keeping a transmission in anything but reverse, there is the wear and tear on the stuffing box as the shaft rotates. This would increase the frequency of adjustments to the stuffing box.
Ed Haley
s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
Ed Haley
s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Another Lesson Learned & Another Question
Chris,
Don't be self-conscious about your newbie status..we ALL were there once, and believe me, I could put you all to sleep with tales of Larry and his mistakes and foibles over time!! Hell, I broke my left elbow once, getting off our boat in a gale; tripped over a partially opened gate as I was going onto the dock to pull the bow into the dock. Stupid move that bugs me today even..literally. So believe me, you are well on the way to being an experienced skipper, and that deserves a congrat rather than the opposite.
Refering to the practice of when to put her in reverse gear when sailing:
I just shut her down, then put her into reverse after the engine has died..although it makes no difference really. As far as strain on the tranny goes, that may be a point for doing it later after the engine is off, or not. I have had to use full speed reverse once, while docking in a strong wind that came from our stern..with the boat still traveling forward at 3 kts. You do test the engine to prop shaft couplers' set screws in this kind of maneuver..but that is about all, I expect.
Cheers,
Larry
demers@sgi.com
Don't be self-conscious about your newbie status..we ALL were there once, and believe me, I could put you all to sleep with tales of Larry and his mistakes and foibles over time!! Hell, I broke my left elbow once, getting off our boat in a gale; tripped over a partially opened gate as I was going onto the dock to pull the bow into the dock. Stupid move that bugs me today even..literally. So believe me, you are well on the way to being an experienced skipper, and that deserves a congrat rather than the opposite.
Refering to the practice of when to put her in reverse gear when sailing:
I just shut her down, then put her into reverse after the engine has died..although it makes no difference really. As far as strain on the tranny goes, that may be a point for doing it later after the engine is off, or not. I have had to use full speed reverse once, while docking in a strong wind that came from our stern..with the boat still traveling forward at 3 kts. You do test the engine to prop shaft couplers' set screws in this kind of maneuver..but that is about all, I expect.
Cheers,
Larry
Chris Schnell wrote: You can always tell the "newbies" on the block....ME! I'd never heard this discussion and for the past 11 months that we've owned MADNESS III I've always sailed her in neutral. I had no clue I'd be wearing on the tranny, but it makes perfect sense....ANOTHER LESSON LEARNED off this fantastic board!!!!!!
My other question is: do you actually engage reverse with the engine running and then turn her off (now that you're under sail) or do you turn off the engine and then engage her into reverse?
May seem petty, but I'm wondering about strain of moving forward under sail while backing down the engine/tranny.
Full Sails & Calm Seas,
Chris Schnell & Dale Hampton
s/v MADNESS III, CD30 #235
Southport, NC
demers@sgi.com
-
Boyd
Re: Transmission While Sailing
The engine manual that came with Tern (westerbeke engine and Hurth tranny) specifically states neutral.
Boyd
s/v Tern
Fort Lauderdale, Fl
Tern30@aol.com
Boyd
s/v Tern
Fort Lauderdale, Fl
Clay Stalker wrote: Hi folks_
A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
Tern30@aol.com
-
will parker
Re: Transmission While Sailing
Larry,
As usual, I concede to your greater store of knowledge. Jambalaya, being a CD 30, has a three bladed prop, and you are right that it is certainly not intuitive that a free wheeling prop would actually provide more resistance than one in gear. Nevertheless, I will accept that on faith and try to remember to put my prop in reverse next time I cut the engine. Usually I forget about it, so naturally I need to justify my practice. However, I do believe the HURTH transmissions are not troubled by lack of lubrication when freewheeling (I base that on reading Hurth publications and not on any understanding of how a transmission works) . But I now see that is a moot point since I never considered the issue of wear and tear on the cutlass bearing or the stuffing box.
There really is a lot about sailboats we don't know even when we think we know a lot.
This Board has a great bunch of people who do know a lot and who continue to raise really important questions, stimulating good discussions.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD30
whildenp@earthlnk.net
As usual, I concede to your greater store of knowledge. Jambalaya, being a CD 30, has a three bladed prop, and you are right that it is certainly not intuitive that a free wheeling prop would actually provide more resistance than one in gear. Nevertheless, I will accept that on faith and try to remember to put my prop in reverse next time I cut the engine. Usually I forget about it, so naturally I need to justify my practice. However, I do believe the HURTH transmissions are not troubled by lack of lubrication when freewheeling (I base that on reading Hurth publications and not on any understanding of how a transmission works) . But I now see that is a moot point since I never considered the issue of wear and tear on the cutlass bearing or the stuffing box.
There really is a lot about sailboats we don't know even when we think we know a lot.
This Board has a great bunch of people who do know a lot and who continue to raise really important questions, stimulating good discussions.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD30
Larry DeMers wrote: I don't think so.
If you are assuming a fixed pitch two bladed prop on a Cape Dory, and also assume that the owner has taken the time to align the prop shaft so that when the engine lies between compression strokes, the prop is aligned vertically behind the deadwood, then there is no contest of course, as in one case, the prop is sweeping the entire slipstream of water as it rotates. Energy is taken from this slipstream to rotate the prop, which slows the boat down in the process.
In the other case where the prop is hidden behind the deadwood (not really wood, but it still carries this name), there is little to no resistance felt and no speed loss.
Where the boat has a three bladed prop, it gets more complicated and the answer is non-intuitive. This topic was discussed for several weeks on rec.boats.cruising a while back, with several N.A.'s leading the discussion, and showing the math why the freewheeling prop is actually more resistance than a fixed 3 bladed prop, with two blades out in the waterflow. I do not understand the math well enough to discuss it, but came away with the decision that I will agree that it is not a good practice for several reasons, chief among them being it is simply slower on the boat, harder on the transmission which *is not lubricated* during this freewheeling, and harder on the cutlass bearing which is seeing these additional rotations speed up it's own demise all that much faster. There is nothing gained by doing this, and quite a lot lost.
My advice is to lock it in reverse. This is the position I have seen most manufacturers recommend.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Sailing the Apostle Islands..if the infernal snow/cold would stop!! (We're still in January weather here -had our April weather back in January..tell me that the weather isn't horribly screwed up!)
will parker wrote: My view is contrary to others [regarding Hurth transmission only]. Everthing I have read from the Hurth people (advertising, manuals, internet, etc), says that no damage occurs if transmission is left in neutral, i.e. freewheeing seems to be no problem. However, the question could be best resolved by putting the question directly to the Hurth company.
Freewheeling would also appear to offer less resistance to water flow and less likely to impede boat speed.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD 30
will parker wrote: A great debate took place this evening at my house involving the proper place to have the transmission when we sail....I know, things are really going to hell in a handbasket....in any event, the two contestants are in neutral (freewheeling) or set in gear in reverse. What do folks on this board do with this and why? Many thanks!!
Clay Stalker wrote: Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol Harbor, R.I.
whildenp@earthlnk.net
-
Bill Brockschmidt
Re: Transmission While Sailing - Volvo MD7A manual
The "Instruction Book" (dated 10/77) for the Volvo MD7A in my 1979 CD28 states -
"RUNNING
Important
When changing from engine power to sailing, the propeller's rotation is stopped by engaging reverse. During sailing the control should be in either the neutral or reverse position if a folding propeller is used. If a fixed propeller is used then the control must be in the neutral position."
Bill Brockschmidt
DULCINEA
CD-28 #234
Chestertown, MD
wbrocksc@friend.ly.net
"RUNNING
Important
When changing from engine power to sailing, the propeller's rotation is stopped by engaging reverse. During sailing the control should be in either the neutral or reverse position if a folding propeller is used. If a fixed propeller is used then the control must be in the neutral position."
Bill Brockschmidt
DULCINEA
CD-28 #234
Chestertown, MD
wbrocksc@friend.ly.net
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Randy Bates