Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
mzenith@aol.com
C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Jerome Basma
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
Michael,
I've used Cetol for the 4 years I've owned my Typhoon. I've been happy with the results in all that time.
Unlike you, I've used the 2 part traditional Cetol. the first part is the coloring agent with a satin finish, while the second part is the gloss coating.
What I've noticed using this system is that areas that are prone to wear and weathering and chafe, like the rubrails and coaming boards (esp. the top edges), need maintenance once a year and touch ups when they appear. Conversely, my wooden hatch boards, which aren't subjected to too much wear, have gone without touch-ups or a maintenance coat for 3 years.
Whether or not you should continue with Cetol or turn to varnish is up to you. I have never used varnish, but I've read that you really need to stay on top of the maintenance coats once every 6 months.
I really like the Cetol because once you've put down the 2 parts, the once yearly maintenance is a cleaning with water and a mild cleaning solution, followed by the new coat of gloss. The advantage to me is that I'm not sanding away my 25 year old teak.
As for your second question, the parts of my teak that were worn to bare wood that I touched up did not exactly match the intact coated wood. As I didn't have too many of these bare spots I touched them up and decided to live with the minor discolored patches.
If the Cetol on your boat is peeling all over the place you may want to strip it and start over again. Just keep in mind that there may be jobs on your boat which might be worthier of your time.
Hope this helps. Have a good sailing season.
Jerome
SV: "Io"
Typhoon
jbasma@aol.com
I've used Cetol for the 4 years I've owned my Typhoon. I've been happy with the results in all that time.
Unlike you, I've used the 2 part traditional Cetol. the first part is the coloring agent with a satin finish, while the second part is the gloss coating.
What I've noticed using this system is that areas that are prone to wear and weathering and chafe, like the rubrails and coaming boards (esp. the top edges), need maintenance once a year and touch ups when they appear. Conversely, my wooden hatch boards, which aren't subjected to too much wear, have gone without touch-ups or a maintenance coat for 3 years.
Whether or not you should continue with Cetol or turn to varnish is up to you. I have never used varnish, but I've read that you really need to stay on top of the maintenance coats once every 6 months.
I really like the Cetol because once you've put down the 2 parts, the once yearly maintenance is a cleaning with water and a mild cleaning solution, followed by the new coat of gloss. The advantage to me is that I'm not sanding away my 25 year old teak.
As for your second question, the parts of my teak that were worn to bare wood that I touched up did not exactly match the intact coated wood. As I didn't have too many of these bare spots I touched them up and decided to live with the minor discolored patches.
If the Cetol on your boat is peeling all over the place you may want to strip it and start over again. Just keep in mind that there may be jobs on your boat which might be worthier of your time.
Hope this helps. Have a good sailing season.
Jerome
SV: "Io"
Typhoon
jbasma@aol.com
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Don Carr
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
Mike;
Maybe I can help out here. Turnabout is fair play. According to my experience you should not have to sand. Cetol recommends that you simply 'scuff' the existing surface with something like ScotchBrite. In fact I use the pads from the grocery store with good results.
As far as matching, I can't comment on the 'light' but once you have a base of a couple of coats generally the color will match.
One question: Did you get the basic 3 coats on initially? I found that to be particularly important in my applications.
IMHO..unless you want the annual sanding/recoating chore (read:I have no life) varnish (although it is the best from appearance) would not be my choice. Besides..the extra weight of varnish may actually slow you down.
carrds@us.ibm.com
Maybe I can help out here. Turnabout is fair play. According to my experience you should not have to sand. Cetol recommends that you simply 'scuff' the existing surface with something like ScotchBrite. In fact I use the pads from the grocery store with good results.
As far as matching, I can't comment on the 'light' but once you have a base of a couple of coats generally the color will match.
One question: Did you get the basic 3 coats on initially? I found that to be particularly important in my applications.
IMHO..unless you want the annual sanding/recoating chore (read:I have no life) varnish (although it is the best from appearance) would not be my choice. Besides..the extra weight of varnish may actually slow you down.
carrds@us.ibm.com
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Clay Stalker
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
Hi Mike:Michael Heintz wrote: Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
I used to be a varnish fanatic with my previous boats....really love the look. However, I got tired of the constant upkeep, so when I purchase Salsa last year, I was intrigued with the Armada that had been used...satin finish, subtle but a nice sheen. It has been real easy to maintain it...just a touching up where chaffed etc. I will be putting a coat on this spring....just a light scuffing and coat it. Certainly not as elegant as gloss varnish, but looks great on a Cape Dory...."beauty is in the eyes of the beholder..."
Clay Stalker
cstalker@cheshire.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Armada...
Captain Heintz,
Last year I completely stripped all the teak on Hanalei and put on three coats of Armada. It still looks good as we speak and only needs rubbing down lightly with a ScotchBrite pad and 1 additional coat before she goes back in the water. I think it looks a lot better than Cetol, not as orange, and wood looks natural. There is a CD-25 right behind Hanalei in the yard with Cetol, her wood looks artificial! You might think about Armada if you do strip her. But, DO NOT use varnish, unless you want to be a slave to her!
D. Stump
Hanalei
PS, New teak finish will NOT make her go faster !
Last year I completely stripped all the teak on Hanalei and put on three coats of Armada. It still looks good as we speak and only needs rubbing down lightly with a ScotchBrite pad and 1 additional coat before she goes back in the water. I think it looks a lot better than Cetol, not as orange, and wood looks natural. There is a CD-25 right behind Hanalei in the yard with Cetol, her wood looks artificial! You might think about Armada if you do strip her. But, DO NOT use varnish, unless you want to be a slave to her!
D. Stump
Hanalei
PS, New teak finish will NOT make her go faster !
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Mario
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
We use Cetol, but we put on two coats twice a year, once in spring and a second set before we winterize. It does look good after we're done, but after a few months in the summer sun it is noticeably duller, although I think the teak is still well-protected. You may just need to apply two coats and do it more often.
capedory252@aol.com
Michael Heintz wrote: Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
capedory252@aol.com
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charlie palumbo
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
Mike,Michael Heintz wrote: Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
No matter what you use, it will not last long unless you stick to a maintenance schedule. On my cape dory, I use varnish on the majority of wood and silkens on the small hard to get to pieces. I do this because varnish is harder to remove. make no mistake about it...if you have the time and patience to do it right, there is no better look than varnish....the trick is to lay on a coat whenever you can.
good luck..............Charlie
jcp1347j@aol.com
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Ed Haley
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
Mike:
FWIW, I love the look of varnish. But after a dozen years of saving the best days for varnishing instead of sailing, I said "enough." Now I use Cetol exclusively on deck and varnish down below in the cabin. In fact the companionway has both, with Cetol outside the hatches and varnish inside. Both sides of the hatches are Cetol to prevent warping.
The look of Cetol is second to that of varnish but it's a close second. At least it is to me. I don't know where people get the idea that Cetol looks orange. When you properly prepare teak by removal of all oil, varnish, lacquer, etc., cleaning with a bleach (20% Clorox is fine), sanding and filling the pores with a pore filler, and apply multiple coats of Cetol, it looks close to the look of varnish. The grain pops up and has a real nice depth to it. It is exactly the look I desire. It's a real headturner dockside and on the water as well as a great conversation starter. But then again to each his own. Others like the wood salty. Can't argue with them. You HAVE to make the boat pretty according to the way you see her. Life's too short to sail around in a boat that looks pretty to others but not to you!
I use 3 coats of Cetol Marine and then 3 coats of Cetol Gloss. Real light coats so it doesn't run. I'll be completely redoing my teak (just purchased boat) next month. Yeah, I need to get a life cause I really enjoy working around boats - ESPECIALLY redoing the teak. It gives me a lot of satisfaction to bring out the beauty of a boat. I keep a small jar of each type of Cetol handy for touch-ups with small applicators like those of the bottles of silicon sealer that's applied to shoes.
The secret to keeping it from peeling is to put on multiple coats and then apply another coat in the fall. Maybe two if it's been abused. Use a scotch-brite pad to rough up the finish before applying.
Have fun.
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
FWIW, I love the look of varnish. But after a dozen years of saving the best days for varnishing instead of sailing, I said "enough." Now I use Cetol exclusively on deck and varnish down below in the cabin. In fact the companionway has both, with Cetol outside the hatches and varnish inside. Both sides of the hatches are Cetol to prevent warping.
The look of Cetol is second to that of varnish but it's a close second. At least it is to me. I don't know where people get the idea that Cetol looks orange. When you properly prepare teak by removal of all oil, varnish, lacquer, etc., cleaning with a bleach (20% Clorox is fine), sanding and filling the pores with a pore filler, and apply multiple coats of Cetol, it looks close to the look of varnish. The grain pops up and has a real nice depth to it. It is exactly the look I desire. It's a real headturner dockside and on the water as well as a great conversation starter. But then again to each his own. Others like the wood salty. Can't argue with them. You HAVE to make the boat pretty according to the way you see her. Life's too short to sail around in a boat that looks pretty to others but not to you!
I use 3 coats of Cetol Marine and then 3 coats of Cetol Gloss. Real light coats so it doesn't run. I'll be completely redoing my teak (just purchased boat) next month. Yeah, I need to get a life cause I really enjoy working around boats - ESPECIALLY redoing the teak. It gives me a lot of satisfaction to bring out the beauty of a boat. I keep a small jar of each type of Cetol handy for touch-ups with small applicators like those of the bottles of silicon sealer that's applied to shoes.
The secret to keeping it from peeling is to put on multiple coats and then apply another coat in the fall. Maybe two if it's been abused. Use a scotch-brite pad to rough up the finish before applying.
Have fun.
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
Mike,
I would recommend sticking with Cetol, but you need to modify your application a little to get it to work for you. You didn't say how many coats you have in place on the surfaces that are now failing, so I'll assume that you maybe put on a couple coats of Cetol light and called it good?
Here is the secret to cetol. You need to put on a base coat of either Cetol lite, or the cetol marine. This is applied with 2 evenly applied coats minimum (for more than 2 coats, watch the darkness of the finish, as it will get dark quickly, hiding the grain. Usually 2 coats are used) -as this is the main UV protection for the wood.
Then, apply the Cetol Gloss over the base coat. I use 6 coats in the cockpit, and have now got 5 years on the coaming and stern trim teak, and as of this past weekend, it was shiny enough to reflect my old face in the darn thing. We have done a single overcoat of gloss twice in this time period, more out of duty I guess..but it really has not needed it.
You could use as few as 3-4 coats over a month or so, and still get a lasting finish that you *will* like. Trust me..if you use this and other guides I have written for cetol application, you will end up with a finish that requires a minimum of maintenance, and still look great.
The multiple number of gloss top coats is the main reason the whole finish can last so much longer than varnish finishes. The top coats have a UV blocker in them that protects the base coat from the sun..which is itself protecting the wood surface from the sun. Kind of a two step protective coating. The gloss is remarkably harder than the base coat too, resisting abrasion much better than the base coat. So they both work together really. For instance, the gloss by itself is not recommended at all, as the wood has very little UV protection in that circumstance.
Repair of a cetoled surface is far-far easier than with varnish. Varnish must be totally removed to bare wood before doing a revarnishing. This is a lot of work..a whole lot.
Cetol can be lightly scrubbed with a 3M plastic scrubber and rinsed with water, dried and then recoated with 1 coat of cetol gloss, using a foam brush. We do our boat in a total of under 3 hours for all britework on the exterior -thats 2 people working in tandom, where one sands (really, scrubs), rinses off, while the other tack rags just before the cetol is applied. One applies cetol, the other spot cleans and touches up if there are holidays or curtains. Fairly straight forward..and once done..you are done.
This got too long..as usual. But don't give up on the cetol..just reinforce that bottom coat better with a thicker (more coats..not thicker coats) top coat.
Enjoy,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
I would recommend sticking with Cetol, but you need to modify your application a little to get it to work for you. You didn't say how many coats you have in place on the surfaces that are now failing, so I'll assume that you maybe put on a couple coats of Cetol light and called it good?
Here is the secret to cetol. You need to put on a base coat of either Cetol lite, or the cetol marine. This is applied with 2 evenly applied coats minimum (for more than 2 coats, watch the darkness of the finish, as it will get dark quickly, hiding the grain. Usually 2 coats are used) -as this is the main UV protection for the wood.
Then, apply the Cetol Gloss over the base coat. I use 6 coats in the cockpit, and have now got 5 years on the coaming and stern trim teak, and as of this past weekend, it was shiny enough to reflect my old face in the darn thing. We have done a single overcoat of gloss twice in this time period, more out of duty I guess..but it really has not needed it.
You could use as few as 3-4 coats over a month or so, and still get a lasting finish that you *will* like. Trust me..if you use this and other guides I have written for cetol application, you will end up with a finish that requires a minimum of maintenance, and still look great.
The multiple number of gloss top coats is the main reason the whole finish can last so much longer than varnish finishes. The top coats have a UV blocker in them that protects the base coat from the sun..which is itself protecting the wood surface from the sun. Kind of a two step protective coating. The gloss is remarkably harder than the base coat too, resisting abrasion much better than the base coat. So they both work together really. For instance, the gloss by itself is not recommended at all, as the wood has very little UV protection in that circumstance.
Repair of a cetoled surface is far-far easier than with varnish. Varnish must be totally removed to bare wood before doing a revarnishing. This is a lot of work..a whole lot.
Cetol can be lightly scrubbed with a 3M plastic scrubber and rinsed with water, dried and then recoated with 1 coat of cetol gloss, using a foam brush. We do our boat in a total of under 3 hours for all britework on the exterior -thats 2 people working in tandom, where one sands (really, scrubs), rinses off, while the other tack rags just before the cetol is applied. One applies cetol, the other spot cleans and touches up if there are holidays or curtains. Fairly straight forward..and once done..you are done.
This got too long..as usual. But don't give up on the cetol..just reinforce that bottom coat better with a thicker (more coats..not thicker coats) top coat.
Enjoy,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Michael Heintz wrote: Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
demers@sgi.com
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Jerry Axler
Re: Armada...
I've used Armada for the last three seasons after 12 years of slaving over varnish. Three coats to start and then two coats in the spring and a touch up in the fall is all I've needed. It is easy to work, with no sanding between coats , if you time it right. I use the high gloss and most people can't see the difference between it and varnish.D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Captain Heintz,
Last year I completely stripped all the teak on Hanalei and put on three coats of Armada. It still looks good as we speak and only needs rubbing down lightly with a ScotchBrite pad and 1 additional coat before she goes back in the water. I think it looks a lot better than Cetol, not as orange, and wood looks natural. There is a CD-25 right behind Hanalei in the yard with Cetol, her wood looks artificial! You might think about Armada if you do strip her. But, DO NOT use varnish, unless you want to be a slave to her!
D. Stump
Hanalei
PS, New teak finish will NOT make her go faster !
Great product, but hard to buy from the mail order houses.
Jerry{is it spring yet} Axler
cutter36@erols.com
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Will W.
Re: C-Tol maintanence, watch the temp.!
Just thought I would throw in a couple of things worth mentioning here. One is that you should follow the directions on the can. Especially the part about temperature and direct sunlight. I use cetol and I like it ok. However I took my time and spent the neccesary days ( yes days ) that it takes to do it right. Also sunlight and heat are mentioned on the can as bad. I met a guy at my yard who can attest to this. He spent all the time prepping but applied all three coats on one sunny hot afternoon. It looks like it was done years ago, not last season. So if you decaide to use Cetol then make sure you follow the directions or the results will likely be unsatisfactory.
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
willwheatley@starpower.net
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
Michael Heintz wrote: Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
willwheatley@starpower.net
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BobM
Re: C-Tol maintanence coats or Varnish
====================================Michael Heintz wrote: Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
Michael:
Here is a repost that I made on 10.1.02 concerning the issue of
oil or cetol versus varnish. Believe me that in 40+ years of boating
experience cetol gets you out on the water instead of being a slave
to your boat.
Repost from CD Board 10.01.02:
Do yourself a favor and forget about the teak oil, it will not last. Many, many years ago I tried the oil route and tested just about
every teak oil out there and all of them did not last. Then it was a host of teaks sealers ending with SEMCO, which also does
not hold up long. Then tried varnish all around and it lasted longer than all the others but was a lot more work to maintain and
eventually lifted from the oil in the wood. Then I discovered CETOL and life has been good since.
The only way to go is Cetol all around. At first it is a lot of work but once you get a build on it's easier to maintain with
maintenance coats. My advise is to get a few days of good weather and get down several coats. Sleep overnight on the boat if
necessary while doing this or hire someone to do it for you then you just have to do the yearly maintenance coat. Save yourself
a lot of work and avoid all the rest.
Bob
Ranger #144
CD25D '84
Ranger1442@hotmail.com
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Eric
In defense of varnish
yes, varnish is more work. But once it's on there the annual work is not as much as some would have you believe. Light sanding, dusting and two coats a season should be enough for most conditions. Three coats will be more than enough.
I usually do the second coat once the boat is in the water. I am apparenly in the minority, but I actually enjoy taking an afternoon in June to turn on the red sox game on the radio, take off my shirt and apply a little TLC. And when it's done, it looks great.
Would I rather be sailing? Usually. But sometimes a change of pace is nice for me.
Eric
I usually do the second coat once the boat is in the water. I am apparenly in the minority, but I actually enjoy taking an afternoon in June to turn on the red sox game on the radio, take off my shirt and apply a little TLC. And when it's done, it looks great.
Would I rather be sailing? Usually. But sometimes a change of pace is nice for me.
Eric
Michael Heintz wrote: Two seasons ago I stripped all teak topsides and applied C tol light. At first I was very happy with it. Thought it looked close to varnish.
I neglected to apply touch up coats last season and now it's coming up here and there, and I'm no longer so impressed.
Question 1) should I bite the bullet and strip again and apply varnish?
Or if I stick to C tol, what's the best way to apply coats this year? Lightly sand overall and apply? What happens to the area's that are down to bare wood, will they match areas not so worn?
Michael Heintz
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matt cawthorne
Honey teak?
I have been using Cetol for about 7 or 8 years on my boat. At first it turned heads. It was a reddish color, not orange. four coats initially and 1 to 2 maintenance coats per year. Now it just looks like I painted the wood with brown paint. The coating is totally opaque. I like the product, but it is not like varnish in the long haul. I tried the clear coating, but two cans purchased two different years from two different vendors both had the consistency of bubble gum. When applied was still soft the second day.The clear stuff never worked for me. I have heard great things about the honey teak product and will be converting to that for the future. You might want to investigate that direction....next year. This year put another couple of coats of Cetol on and go sailing.
Matt
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
Matt
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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BobM
Re: Honey teak?
======================matt cawthorne wrote: I have been using Cetol for about 7 or 8 years on my boat. At first it turned heads. It was a reddish color, not orange. four coats initially and 1 to 2 maintenance coats per year. Now it just looks like I painted the wood with brown paint. The coating is totally opaque. I like the product, but it is not like varnish in the long haul. I tried the clear coating, but two cans purchased two different years from two different vendors both had the consistency of bubble gum. When applied was still soft the second day.The clear stuff never worked for me. I have heard great things about the honey teak product and will be converting to that for the future. You might want to investigate that direction....next year. This year put another couple of coats of Cetol on and go sailing.
Matt
Matt
Matt:
Don't know what product your using but it certainly doesn't sound like Cetol. If Cetol is properly applied with 2 coats of non gloss followed by 3 or more coats of gloss (I recommend a build of light coats of at least 4 of gloss) you should not get any "painted" appearance. It also sounds like the gloss you bought was out of date or improperly stored because it's not as you described. Proper application of the product does a world of good on how it will look. I agree that the Cetol is not perfect and does not look like a fine varnish finish because I have varnished most of my life, it's how I made pocket money as a kid in the boatyards. Cetol is however a good compromise considering the maintenance and work it will save the owner. I have been using the Cetol now for quite some time and have gotten numerous comments on how nice the boat looks with this finish. It's a great product that will save a lot of headaches and gets you out sailing.
Rgeards,
Bob
S/V Ranger #144
CD25D 1984
ranger1442@hotmail.com