Lazy Jacks & Topping Lifts

[Will W.]

I am going to add Lazy Jacks to "Suzi Q" this winter. So today in researching my project, I walked around the marina at my dad's house. Apparently there is no one way to set up Lazy Jacks. There is also no apparent standard for materials used; wire vs rope or what size line to use or even design. I did notice that only one boat had what appeared to be a bought kit ( steel wires with blocks on the end ). So that said, I figure I can design and rig my own system no problem.
My question is this. Would I be able to eliminate the topping lift if I rig the lazy jacks a certain way? I don't think that the load being held by the topping lift is very great. So is there some issue affecting the sails performance when using a topping lift that I am not considering. I really don't like the way the topping lift constantly chafes the leach on the mainsail so I was hoping I could get rid of it somehow. Any thoughts or advise would be great. Thanks.

Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25

[Bill Goldsmith]

Will,

Ideally you want to set a topping lift so that it holds the boom at a good height when furled, and when you raise the main, slacks off so it does not chafe. If you have a static TL (eye splice to a bolt at the masthead) you have to try to find that "sweet spot" that is right for your sail. If you have a running TL then you can slack off when the sail is raised if you need to to avoid chafe.

When I bought Second Chance she had a static topping lift, and found that the TL chafed the sail leach, especially before I bought a new main. The old sail was stretched out and it was hard to set the TL properly. The new sail lifts the boom higher on its own, and reduces the adjustments needed. I replaced the static one anyway, with a running topping lift, because when motoring like to stand right behind the dodger and steer with my knees. As I am 6'0" I needed a good way to raise the furled sail over my head so I can stand there.

With regard to lazy jacks, my first impression is that it would be possible to rig them to double as a TL but I'd avoid doing it. It's important to be able to adjust LJs and that adjustment may be different from where you'd want the TL. For instance, if you lower the main and rely on the LJs to hold up the boom, they will become very tight as the sail is going down and it will make the "slot" kind of narrow and restricting--the sail may require a bit of muscling to get down as it may not flake well in a narrow slot. I don't ever tighten my lazy jacks very taut as it would constrict the sail and it flakes better a little loose.

Also, you'll want to be able to loosen the lazy jack on the lee side when reaching or running if you want to tighten the vang and to avoid chafing on the lee side. You'd have to retighten when lowering the sail.

Lazy jacks add windage as well and they can be retracted if desired, but not if also acting as a TL.

For these reasons (there may be more) I'd opt for the single line running TL with separate lazy jacks.


I'd be curious if there's a design out there that incorporates both TL and LJs and addresses the issues I pointed out.

As long as you're looking for lazy jacks I have to point out the Mack Pack system from Mack Sails in Fla. I bought a set two years ago and swear by it. It's actually a sail cover/lazy jack combined, where you lower the sail righ into the cover and zip it up. It's similar to a Doyle Stack Pack but less costly (although still a bit pricey).

Hope these ideas help.

Bill GOldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance

I am going to add Lazy Jacks to "Suzi Q" this winter. So today in researching my project, I walked around the marina at my dad's house. Apparently there is no one way to set up Lazy Jacks. There is also no apparent standard for materials used; wire vs rope or what size line to use or even design. I did notice that only one boat had what appeared to be a bought kit ( steel wires with blocks on the end ). So that said, I figure I can design and rig my own system no problem.
My question is this. Would I be able to eliminate the topping lift if I rig the lazy jacks a certain way? I don't think that the load being held by the topping lift is very great. So is there some issue affecting the sails performance when using a topping lift that I am not considering. I really don't like the way the topping lift constantly chafes the leach on the mainsail so I was hoping I could get rid of it somehow. Any thoughts or advise would be great. Thanks.

Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25

goldy@bestweb.net

[len]

will

the topping lift, if all line and set up properly, is a good emergency main halyard - for extended cruises, i detach mine from the end of the boom so it doesn't chafe the mainsail, and i use a boom crutch -

lazy jacks can be quite simple and work well, a fixed line with a block on each end from the mast and a running line from about 1/3 of the way along the boom from the bow end up to one block, from there to about 2/3 of the way along the boom, then up to the second block and back to the boom on the other side -

len



md.frel@nwh.org

[Brett Miller]

Bill:

I'm curious about learning more about your experience with the Mack Pack. It looks fairly straightforward, but . . . . I'm particularly interested in getting a sense of how difficult (or easy) it is to fit and/or install (assuming you did it yourself). The Mack Sails web site suggests that it is a piece of cake.

Also, I couldn't tell from the web site, but it appears that the surface of the boom (and winches) remain exposed once the entire system is closed up. It basically rests on top of the boom, with no fabric encircling the boom like a typical sail cover. Also, how exactly is the cover fastened to the boom along the bottom edge and to the mast on the leading edge?

Finally, where does the cover material go when the sail is up?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide and I apologize for the interrogation.

Brett

Will,

Ideally you want to set a topping lift so that it holds the boom at a good height when furled, and when you raise the main, slacks off so it does not chafe. If you have a static TL (eye splice to a bolt at the masthead) you have to try to find that "sweet spot" that is right for your sail. If you have a running TL then you can slack off when the sail is raised if you need to to avoid chafe.

When I bought Second Chance she had a static topping lift, and found that the TL chafed the sail leach, especially before I bought a new main. The old sail was stretched out and it was hard to set the TL properly. The new sail lifts the boom higher on its own, and reduces the adjustments needed. I replaced the static one anyway, with a running topping lift, because when motoring like to stand right behind the dodger and steer with my knees. As I am 6'0" I needed a good way to raise the furled sail over my head so I can stand there.

With regard to lazy jacks, my first impression is that it would be possible to rig them to double as a TL but I'd avoid doing it. It's important to be able to adjust LJs and that adjustment may be different from where you'd want the TL. For instance, if you lower the main and rely on the LJs to hold up the boom, they will become very tight as the sail is going down and it will make the "slot" kind of narrow and restricting--the sail may require a bit of muscling to get down as it may not flake well in a narrow slot. I don't ever tighten my lazy jacks very taut as it would constrict the sail and it flakes better a little loose.

Also, you'll want to be able to loosen the lazy jack on the lee side when reaching or running if you want to tighten the vang and to avoid chafing on the lee side. You'd have to retighten when lowering the sail.

Lazy jacks add windage as well and they can be retracted if desired, but not if also acting as a TL.

For these reasons (there may be more) I'd opt for the single line running TL with separate lazy jacks.


I'd be curious if there's a design out there that incorporates both TL and LJs and addresses the issues I pointed out.

As long as you're looking for lazy jacks I have to point out the Mack Pack system from Mack Sails in Fla. I bought a set two years ago and swear by it. It's actually a sail cover/lazy jack combined, where you lower the sail righ into the cover and zip it up. It's similar to a Doyle Stack Pack but less costly (although still a bit pricey).

Hope these ideas help.

Bill GOldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance

I am going to add Lazy Jacks to "Suzi Q" this winter. So today in researching my project, I walked around the marina at my dad's house. Apparently there is no one way to set up Lazy Jacks. There is also no apparent standard for materials used; wire vs rope or what size line to use or even design. I did notice that only one boat had what appeared to be a bought kit ( steel wires with blocks on the end ). So that said, I figure I can design and rig my own system no problem.
My question is this. Would I be able to eliminate the topping lift if I rig the lazy jacks a certain way? I don't think that the load being held by the topping lift is very great. So is there some issue affecting the sails performance when using a topping lift that I am not considering. I really don't like the way the topping lift constantly chafes the leach on the mainsail so I was hoping I could get rid of it somehow. Any thoughts or advise would be great. Thanks.

Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25

bimesq@yahoo.com

[Bill]

Good Morning Will

Below I have provided a link to the instruction manual furnished with the Harken Lazy Jack Kit. I have installed this system aboard Rhapsody and am pleased. I didnt but their kit, just the line and hardware. The manual give the measurements and everything. For a 25 you want the model #252.

<a href="http://www.harken.com/mainsail/pdfmain.php">Harked Lazy Jack Instructions</A>

Cant answer the question about the Topping Lift. Hope this helps

Fair Winds and Happy Holidays.

Bill
S/V Rhapsody (the Original)
CD25D

I am going to add Lazy Jacks to "Suzi Q" this winter. So today in researching my project, I walked around the marina at my dad's house. Apparently there is no one way to set up Lazy Jacks. There is also no apparent standard for materials used; wire vs rope or what size line to use or even design. I did notice that only one boat had what appeared to be a bought kit ( steel wires with blocks on the end ). So that said, I figure I can design and rig my own system no problem.
My question is this. Would I be able to eliminate the topping lift if I rig the lazy jacks a certain way? I don't think that the load being held by the topping lift is very great. So is there some issue affecting the sails performance when using a topping lift that I am not considering. I really don't like the way the topping lift constantly chafes the leach on the mainsail so I was hoping I could get rid of it somehow. Any thoughts or advise would be great. Thanks.

Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25

cd25d@rhapsodysails.com

[Mark YAshinsky]

From Captain Bill's engineering grunt who helped him install the Mack Pack, its a simple project, although not a quick one. A number of holes have to be drilled and tapped on the mast and boom. Two people make the project go quicker and is necessary, when mounting the two cheek blocks way up the mast. There are a couple of padeyes mounted on the bottom of the boom and you may need two cleats for tensioning the LJ's (each side). The Pack runs along each side of the boom (widest part), held by a hook (top) and two turn locks (like what is used on the coach roof for a bimini). The mast winches and cleats are completely exposed, but the reefing can be covered (does cover the gooseneck). The cover is tensioned between the top hook on the mast and a line that exits the aft end that Goldsmith has tied to the mast bail. the LJ's run thru grommets that keep the midlle from flopping about. During use, youcan just hoist and go, or unhook the Pack from the top hook or the hook and middle turn lock and roll down for less windage. It cannot go that far 'cause of the LJ's running thru it. The bottom of the Pack has a number of straps that go under the foot of the main (between the boom sail slides). Mack Pack supplied complete instructions on where the blocks and padeyes go and I believe they can accommodate bolt ropes. One tough part during use, is Goldsmith got a new Mack sail and the mainsail is stiff stuff and doesnt always want to flake when dropped. Sometimes helping hand to get it to fold is needed, but thats the sail and not the cover.

[Bill Goldsmith]

Brett:

Mark summarized the installation well (thanks again Mark), and I'll add some answers to specific questions:

>>>>>>>>>I'm particularly interested in getting a sense of how difficult (or easy) it is to fit and/or install (assuming you did it yourself). The Mack Sails web site suggests that it is a piece of cake.


Mark covered this. It's fairly straightforward if you are comfortable tapping for machine screws. The directions are great and they even have an installation video.

>>>>>>>>>>Also, I couldn't tell from the web site, but it appears that the surface of the boom (and winches) remain exposed once the entire system is closed up. It basically rests on top of the boom, with no fabric encircling the boom like a typical sail cover.

That is correct, it sits on top of the boom and is basically supported by the lazy jacks that are integral to the system. The boom is exposed as well as the winches.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Also, how exactly is the cover fastened to the boom along the bottom edge and to the mast on the leading edge?

Mark covered the leading edge. As for the boom, for a sail that uses slides, there are straps with turn buttons that go under the bolt rope between the sail and the boom. For sails that slide the boltrope onto the boom, Mack says you can make a slit in the sail just above the boltrope to accommodate the fabric straps that hold the bottom of the Mack Pack down. I still cringe at that concept, but they claim it doesn't weaken the sail. It was moot for me as I have slides in the boom.

>>>>>>: Finally, where does the cover material go when the sail is up?

You have two options that are interchangeable at will: (1) Leave it in place while sailing (works fine and does not seem to diminish performance), or (2) retract it onto the boom. This probably reduces wear and tear on long passages. There are four sewn-in ties (two on each side) near the gooseneck to tie down each side. The rest of the pack is pushed down and the lazy jacks hold everything in place. When the pack is retracted onto the boom you also have the option of retracting the lazy jacks along the mast and boom to reduce windage if desired.

No problem for the questions, that's what the Board is all about!!!

All the best,

Bill Goldsmith
CD27 # 173
Second Chance

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide and I apologize for the interrogation.

Brett

Will,

Ideally you want to set a topping lift so that it holds the boom at a good height when furled, and when you raise the main, slacks off so it does not chafe. If you have a static TL (eye splice to a bolt at the masthead) you have to try to find that "sweet spot" that is right for your sail. If you have a running TL then you can slack off when the sail is raised if you need to to avoid chafe.

When I bought Second Chance she had a static topping lift, and found that the TL chafed the sail leach, especially before I bought a new main. The old sail was stretched out and it was hard to set the TL properly. The new sail lifts the boom higher on its own, and reduces the adjustments needed. I replaced the static one anyway, with a running topping lift, because when motoring like to stand right behind the dodger and steer with my knees. As I am 6'0" I needed a good way to raise the furled sail over my head so I can stand there.

With regard to lazy jacks, my first impression is that it would be possible to rig them to double as a TL but I'd avoid doing it. It's important to be able to adjust LJs and that adjustment may be different from where you'd want the TL. For instance, if you lower the main and rely on the LJs to hold up the boom, they will become very tight as the sail is going down and it will make the "slot" kind of narrow and restricting--the sail may require a bit of muscling to get down as it may not flake well in a narrow slot. I don't ever tighten my lazy jacks very taut as it would constrict the sail and it flakes better a little loose.

Also, you'll want to be able to loosen the lazy jack on the lee side when reaching or running if you want to tighten the vang and to avoid chafing on the lee side. You'd have to retighten when lowering the sail.

Lazy jacks add windage as well and they can be retracted if desired, but not if also acting as a TL.

For these reasons (there may be more) I'd opt for the single line running TL with separate lazy jacks.


I'd be curious if there's a design out there that incorporates both TL and LJs and addresses the issues I pointed out.

As long as you're looking for lazy jacks I have to point out the Mack Pack system from Mack Sails in Fla. I bought a set two years ago and swear by it. It's actually a sail cover/lazy jack combined, where you lower the sail righ into the cover and zip it up. It's similar to a Doyle Stack Pack but less costly (although still a bit pricey).

Hope these ideas help.

Bill GOldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance

I am going to add Lazy Jacks to "Suzi Q" this winter. So today in researching my project, I walked around the marina at my dad's house. Apparently there is no one way to set up Lazy Jacks. There is also no apparent standard for materials used; wire vs rope or what size line to use or even design. I did notice that only one boat had what appeared to be a bought kit ( steel wires with blocks on the end ). So that said, I figure I can design and rig my own system no problem.
My question is this. Would I be able to eliminate the topping lift if I rig the lazy jacks a certain way? I don't think that the load being held by the topping lift is very great. So is there some issue affecting the sails performance when using a topping lift that I am not considering. I really don't like the way the topping lift constantly chafes the leach on the mainsail so I was hoping I could get rid of it somehow. Any thoughts or advise would be great. Thanks.

Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25

goldy@bestweb.net

[Ed Haley]

When you install the lazy jacks, if you do decide to add this very helpful accessory, it would be helpful if you leave enough slack line to be able to keep the equipment from chafing on the sail. Better yet, design a system where the lines and blocks can be stashed out of the way while sailing. You can do this by attaching a turning block high on the mast instead of permanently attaching the end of the line to the mast. Then you can lower the harness and stowe it out of the way underneath the boom.

If you don't like the topping lift for whatever reason, consider a rigid boom vang.



eghaley@twcny.rr.com

[Warren Kaplan]

I had Doyle Sails install my lazy jacks on my CD27. They look just like a set of EZJacks!. No hardware on the lines. No blocks to hit the sails. Just lines running thru loops on other lines. They work great. I retract them so that they actually are around the main and jib winches (one on each side) on the mast when I raise the main and when I'm sailing. I only deploy them when I want to douse the main. Of course, you can leave them deployed all the time so you don't have to do anything. I just like them out of the way when sailing and raising the main.

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27



Setsail728@aol.com

[Brett Miller]

Timely and incredibly helpful input, as aways. Thanks much.

Best,

Brett

From Captain Bill's engineering grunt who helped him install the Mack Pack, its a simple project, although not a quick one. A number of holes have to be drilled and tapped on the mast and boom. Two people make the project go quicker and is necessary, when mounting the two cheek blocks way up the mast. There are a couple of padeyes mounted on the bottom of the boom and you may need two cleats for tensioning the LJ's (each side). The Pack runs along each side of the boom (widest part), held by a hook (top) and two turn locks (like what is used on the coach roof for a bimini). The mast winches and cleats are completely exposed, but the reefing can be covered (does cover the gooseneck). The cover is tensioned between the top hook on the mast and a line that exits the aft end that Goldsmith has tied to the mast bail. the LJ's run thru grommets that keep the midlle from flopping about. During use, youcan just hoist and go, or unhook the Pack from the top hook or the hook and middle turn lock and roll down for less windage. It cannot go that far 'cause of the LJ's running thru it. The bottom of the Pack has a number of straps that go under the foot of the main (between the boom sail slides). Mack Pack supplied complete instructions on where the blocks and padeyes go and I believe they can accommodate bolt ropes. One tough part during use, is Goldsmith got a new Mack sail and the mainsail is stiff stuff and doesnt always want to flake when dropped. Sometimes helping hand to get it to fold is needed, but thats the sail and not the cover.

[Kevin Mulligan]

Enjoyed all the discussion on Lazy Jacks as I am about to install same on my CD 28. Does anyone have experience with the Sailnet/JSI system? It appears to be similar to the Mack Stack Pak as it has a built-in sail cover. It sells about $100 cheaper than the Mack version. Thanks for any input on Sailnet's version.
Kevin Mulligan

Timely and incredibly helpful input, as aways. Thanks much.

Best,

Brett

From Captain Bill's engineering grunt who helped him install the Mack Pack, its a simple project, although not a quick one. A number of holes have to be drilled and tapped on the mast and boom. Two people make the project go quicker and is necessary, when mounting the two cheek blocks way up the mast. There are a couple of padeyes mounted on the bottom of the boom and you may need two cleats for tensioning the LJ's (each side). The Pack runs along each side of the boom (widest part), held by a hook (top) and two turn locks (like what is used on the coach roof for a bimini). The mast winches and cleats are completely exposed, but the reefing can be covered (does cover the gooseneck). The cover is tensioned between the top hook on the mast and a line that exits the aft end that Goldsmith has tied to the mast bail. the LJ's run thru grommets that keep the midlle from flopping about. During use, youcan just hoist and go, or unhook the Pack from the top hook or the hook and middle turn lock and roll down for less windage. It cannot go that far 'cause of the LJ's running thru it. The bottom of the Pack has a number of straps that go under the foot of the main (between the boom sail slides). Mack Pack supplied complete instructions on where the blocks and padeyes go and I believe they can accommodate bolt ropes. One tough part during use, is Goldsmith got a new Mack sail and the mainsail is stiff stuff and doesnt always want to flake when dropped. Sometimes helping hand to get it to fold is needed, but thats the sail and not the cover.

kmulligan@yahoo.com