I recently purchased Spring Tides a 1980 CD 33. The main is shot and I am getting ready to order a new sail. I plan on cruising and not racing. What do other CD 33 owners (other CD owners also) recommendations for a main sail - traditional main sail, full batten main, hybrid with full battens top two with regular battens below? I have also heard that I need to replace the track in the mast with another type for the sail to drop easier, any thoughts? Please advise.
Thanks,
Chris Powell
CD 33, Main sail design
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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len
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
chris
two seasons ago i replaced my main (CD31) with a full battened one (by Thurston Quantum Sails in Bristol, RI, terrific company) and it's much better, especially in light air - i did have to add lazy jacks, simple ones i designed, and it's a bit harder to get down, but so much better it's well worth it - if your other sails are old and you can afford it, replacing them will make a big difference also
len
md.frel@nwh.org
two seasons ago i replaced my main (CD31) with a full battened one (by Thurston Quantum Sails in Bristol, RI, terrific company) and it's much better, especially in light air - i did have to add lazy jacks, simple ones i designed, and it's a bit harder to get down, but so much better it's well worth it - if your other sails are old and you can afford it, replacing them will make a big difference also
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: some thoughts....
Captain Powell,
You will get many different opinions on this. I just went through it when looking for a new mains'l for Hanalei. After much research, I have decided on an exact replacement design. Shelf foot(bolt rope, no slides), traditional luff slides with jack line. Two reef points, 4 normal battens, double leach lines, 6.7 oz Dacron cloth. The best quote and promised service came from Mack Sails in Fort Lauderdale.
It all depends to some extent on what you want to do, and how much you want to play with sail trim. Oh, by the way, I finally got out of one manufacture what exactly the advantage is with a loose footed main(other than more trim options). They are CHEAPER to make! ! Hence more profits for the manufacturer.
You stated you are a cruiser, replace in kind what you have. I think you will be amazed with the cloth in a new sail.
You said you had to replace the "track in the mast". Not sure what you mean, the track is formed into the mast on all Spartan spars I have seen. To change that, you would have to replace the mast. Try greassing the sheaves at the top of the mast first. FWIW...
Dave Stump
Hanalei
You will get many different opinions on this. I just went through it when looking for a new mains'l for Hanalei. After much research, I have decided on an exact replacement design. Shelf foot(bolt rope, no slides), traditional luff slides with jack line. Two reef points, 4 normal battens, double leach lines, 6.7 oz Dacron cloth. The best quote and promised service came from Mack Sails in Fort Lauderdale.
It all depends to some extent on what you want to do, and how much you want to play with sail trim. Oh, by the way, I finally got out of one manufacture what exactly the advantage is with a loose footed main(other than more trim options). They are CHEAPER to make! ! Hence more profits for the manufacturer.
You stated you are a cruiser, replace in kind what you have. I think you will be amazed with the cloth in a new sail.
You said you had to replace the "track in the mast". Not sure what you mean, the track is formed into the mast on all Spartan spars I have seen. To change that, you would have to replace the mast. Try greassing the sheaves at the top of the mast first. FWIW...
Dave Stump
Hanalei
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
We replaced our main and staysail this summer, using UK sails. For the main we got a Loose Footed triple-reefed and triple stitched sail with one full batten at the top position, and partial battens for the rest (this because the top of the sail will stall out first. The full batten delays the point where that part of the sail luffs, thus allowing a closer point of sail to the winds.
After putting on over 700 miles with this new sail this year, I would not go back to the shelf footed version. The reason? I can control the draft depth and position with the loose footed main, all from the boom end (in cockpit) where I have installed a double block to control the sails clew. Making the sail fuller while beating will give you more power to punch through waves or into chop, while increasing your heeling angle and speed. Pulling the clew back and flattening the sail decreases the gain and weather helm, and acts in a reefing manner on the sail. We find that with the sail flattened, we can delay reefing from the usual 18 kts. to around 22 kts. This may sound insubstantial except that this also stands the boat upright a lot more..perhaps 5-10 deg. even, which projects more of the mains top into the winds and that means more speed.
You don't have to be involved in racing to enjoy this speed. I argue that a cruiser has as much or more interest in speed than a racer might. If you are making a passage, your greatest exposure to danger lies in the crossing, therefore the crossing should be made as fast and safely as possible. Speed counts here, and especially in multi-day passages, where the time saved adds up into portions of a day or more.
Your arrival may be best in daylight and even then with the light coming from over your shoulders. This narrow time window says that speed may be the deciding factor in whether you get that timing right,have to wait overnight for entry,or chance entering without seeing the water under the boat.
Our nautical traditions officer offers advice on buying a traditional sail in this case, but I suggest that there is a better way to go, using the loose-footed main. As far as cost to a sailmaker doing the loose footed sail vs. a traditional sail..they will be using MORE sail with the loose footed sail,due to the counter, than with the shelf footed one..that cost a little more money, and the only savings to the sailmaker in difficulty of the sail design/build is in not applying sail slides to the foot of the sail, except for at the clew. That is not much of a savings and certainly would not cause them to push a certain design over another.
I suggest that you talk with UK sails and see what they can offer in advice for both designs. The loose footed design seems particularly suited to Cape Dory's that actually cruise, as designed. They offer far more adjustability for the conditions that you find yourself in.
For example, this greater level of adjustability seems to be the reason behind the cutter rig itself, isn't it? Flexibility in sail management to fit the conditions, rather than having to use what is hanging up there due to the sloop design's inherent inflexibility.
View the Loose-Footed Main as an opportunity to gain some extra speed and control of the boat for about the same price as a
shelf-footed main.
I do know that UK sails offers fairly substantive discounts for the winter season, with pick-up in the spring. We saved severalhundred over the normal summer rates. If you are interested in the phone number of our sailmaker, write me please.
Cheers all,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 On the hard..Lake Superior
demers@sgi.com
After putting on over 700 miles with this new sail this year, I would not go back to the shelf footed version. The reason? I can control the draft depth and position with the loose footed main, all from the boom end (in cockpit) where I have installed a double block to control the sails clew. Making the sail fuller while beating will give you more power to punch through waves or into chop, while increasing your heeling angle and speed. Pulling the clew back and flattening the sail decreases the gain and weather helm, and acts in a reefing manner on the sail. We find that with the sail flattened, we can delay reefing from the usual 18 kts. to around 22 kts. This may sound insubstantial except that this also stands the boat upright a lot more..perhaps 5-10 deg. even, which projects more of the mains top into the winds and that means more speed.
You don't have to be involved in racing to enjoy this speed. I argue that a cruiser has as much or more interest in speed than a racer might. If you are making a passage, your greatest exposure to danger lies in the crossing, therefore the crossing should be made as fast and safely as possible. Speed counts here, and especially in multi-day passages, where the time saved adds up into portions of a day or more.
Your arrival may be best in daylight and even then with the light coming from over your shoulders. This narrow time window says that speed may be the deciding factor in whether you get that timing right,have to wait overnight for entry,or chance entering without seeing the water under the boat.
Our nautical traditions officer offers advice on buying a traditional sail in this case, but I suggest that there is a better way to go, using the loose-footed main. As far as cost to a sailmaker doing the loose footed sail vs. a traditional sail..they will be using MORE sail with the loose footed sail,due to the counter, than with the shelf footed one..that cost a little more money, and the only savings to the sailmaker in difficulty of the sail design/build is in not applying sail slides to the foot of the sail, except for at the clew. That is not much of a savings and certainly would not cause them to push a certain design over another.
I suggest that you talk with UK sails and see what they can offer in advice for both designs. The loose footed design seems particularly suited to Cape Dory's that actually cruise, as designed. They offer far more adjustability for the conditions that you find yourself in.
For example, this greater level of adjustability seems to be the reason behind the cutter rig itself, isn't it? Flexibility in sail management to fit the conditions, rather than having to use what is hanging up there due to the sloop design's inherent inflexibility.
View the Loose-Footed Main as an opportunity to gain some extra speed and control of the boat for about the same price as a
shelf-footed main.
I do know that UK sails offers fairly substantive discounts for the winter season, with pick-up in the spring. We saved severalhundred over the normal summer rates. If you are interested in the phone number of our sailmaker, write me please.
Cheers all,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 On the hard..Lake Superior
Chris Powell wrote: I recently purchased Spring Tides a 1980 CD 33. The main is shot and I am getting ready to order a new sail. I plan on cruising and not racing. What do other CD 33 owners (other CD owners also) recommendations for a main sail - traditional main sail, full batten main, hybrid with full battens top two with regular battens below? I have also heard that I need to replace the track in the mast with another type for the sail to drop easier, any thoughts? Please advise.
Thanks,
Chris Powell
demers@sgi.com
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Don Carr
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
Larry; I completely agree with you on the benefit of infinitely variable foot tension. However, as far as tensioning out on the clew..that is pretty much the same on any sail design with exception of some extra pocket along the foot. Where the loose footed concept really shines is actually in light winds or down/wind performance.
Tightening foot tension only flattens one dimension of the sail, the foot. Actually a cunningham is far more effective in reducing weather helm by moving the draft forwad on the sail, this is only accomplished
by increasing pressure verically on the sail. My $.02.
carrds@us.ibm.com
Tightening foot tension only flattens one dimension of the sail, the foot. Actually a cunningham is far more effective in reducing weather helm by moving the draft forwad on the sail, this is only accomplished
by increasing pressure verically on the sail. My $.02.
carrds@us.ibm.com
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Clay Stalker
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
Len:len wrote: chris
two seasons ago i replaced my main (CD31) with a full battened one (by Thurston Quantum Sails in Bristol, RI, terrific company) and it's much better, especially in light air - i did have to add lazy jacks, simple ones i designed, and it's a bit harder to get down, but so much better it's well worth it - if your other sails are old and you can afford it, replacing them will make a big difference also
len
The main on my 1982 CD27 is the original Ulna sail and is getting tired. I replaced the headsail last year with a 135 genny from Anson Sails in Portsmouth, NH and it made a huge difference. I am considering a new main and was intrigued by your description of the full-battened main from Thurston. I sail out of Bristol, Rhode Island and actually am considering switching from Anson to Thurston (but the sales tax is a consideration). Is the full-batten sail more expensive...is it made by North, and can you share with me (privately if you like) the cost? Many thanks!
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol, R.I.
cstalker@cheshire.net
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
Don,
I agree..I was trying to keep my answer from getting into volumns as I sometimes do. The new sail has been an eyeopener for me. Downwind, I tried two extreme settings...flat as I would use in 20+ winds, and full as it made sense to go. I increased the boat speed by 2 kts. and we were able to surf a bit even (in those conditions).
We also have a Cunningham cringle installed, but have yet to use it..but you made me curious about how effective it is in depowering the main. I will rig it and give it a try in the spring. That would give even more control of the boat at the 20+kt point, where you should probably reef, but not quite? (I know the dictum.."thinking about reefing?..then do it now", and usually pay attention to it, but this could add another choice).
Have you had a loose footed main Don? I am trying to find others that have experience with it, and compare notes on performance and tricks etc.
Cheers,
Larry
demers@sgi.com
I agree..I was trying to keep my answer from getting into volumns as I sometimes do. The new sail has been an eyeopener for me. Downwind, I tried two extreme settings...flat as I would use in 20+ winds, and full as it made sense to go. I increased the boat speed by 2 kts. and we were able to surf a bit even (in those conditions).
We also have a Cunningham cringle installed, but have yet to use it..but you made me curious about how effective it is in depowering the main. I will rig it and give it a try in the spring. That would give even more control of the boat at the 20+kt point, where you should probably reef, but not quite? (I know the dictum.."thinking about reefing?..then do it now", and usually pay attention to it, but this could add another choice).
Have you had a loose footed main Don? I am trying to find others that have experience with it, and compare notes on performance and tricks etc.
Cheers,
Larry
Don Carr wrote: Larry; I completely agree with you on the benefit of infinitely variable foot tension. However, as far as tensioning out on the clew..that is pretty much the same on any sail design with exception of some extra pocket along the foot. Where the loose footed concept really shines is actually in light winds or down/wind performance.
Tightening foot tension only flattens one dimension of the sail, the foot. Actually a cunningham is far more effective in reducing weather helm by moving the draft forwad on the sail, this is only accomplished
by increasing pressure verically on the sail. My $.02.
demers@sgi.com
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len
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
clay
i think north also makes a full battened main - thurston makes their own, right in your town! - the cost, if i remember right, was not a lot more than a regular mainsail, thurston was competetive - i think the main was about $2000
len
md.frel@nwh.org
i think north also makes a full battened main - thurston makes their own, right in your town! - the cost, if i remember right, was not a lot more than a regular mainsail, thurston was competetive - i think the main was about $2000
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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Don Carr
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
Larry;
I don't have a loose footed on my boat but race as tactician on several IOR boats with the loose footed. One recommendation for the outhaul line is to run it forward in boom with an exit plate near the forward (approximately 1/4 boom length aft of gooseneck) end of the boom and a cam cleat. I know this runs counter to 'all from the cockpit' concept but you get tremendous leverage pulling forward from the mast to tighten foot while underway and the end of the boom is 3-4ft or more away from you.
The cunningham makes a tremendous difference in flattening the sail and moving the pocket way forward and will actually help you point a bit better. From my perspective the cunningham and vang are probably the best investments a Dorian can purchase to improve performance followed closely by a good traveler system.
One word of caution is reefing is reefing and sail trim is sail trim
obviously one can trim to delay the need for reefing but basically most racers use the 'rail meat' concept as they want to maximize sail area and trim. We as cruisers really do need to be mindfull of reefing
as most of our journeys aren't usually made with 23 year old rockstars who enjoy sailing on the 'edge' literally.
FWIW
carrds@us.ibm.com
I don't have a loose footed on my boat but race as tactician on several IOR boats with the loose footed. One recommendation for the outhaul line is to run it forward in boom with an exit plate near the forward (approximately 1/4 boom length aft of gooseneck) end of the boom and a cam cleat. I know this runs counter to 'all from the cockpit' concept but you get tremendous leverage pulling forward from the mast to tighten foot while underway and the end of the boom is 3-4ft or more away from you.
The cunningham makes a tremendous difference in flattening the sail and moving the pocket way forward and will actually help you point a bit better. From my perspective the cunningham and vang are probably the best investments a Dorian can purchase to improve performance followed closely by a good traveler system.
One word of caution is reefing is reefing and sail trim is sail trim
obviously one can trim to delay the need for reefing but basically most racers use the 'rail meat' concept as they want to maximize sail area and trim. We as cruisers really do need to be mindfull of reefing
as most of our journeys aren't usually made with 23 year old rockstars who enjoy sailing on the 'edge' literally.
FWIW
carrds@us.ibm.com
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zeida cecilia-mendez
Re: CD 33, Main sail design
Chris... I have the 1982 CD-33 Bandolera. Definitely DO NOT need to have the extra mainsail track to get the sail down. I am 5'3" and can get it down by myself standing by the mast. Of course, it would be nice to have the HArken battcars and added track, but it is $$$$$$ expensive!!! You do need to have the lazyjacks. And you do need to hoist and drop with the boat directly into the wind. My cruising main has the top two full battens and half battens on the lower two. I have no problem with this combination. It would be good to have the full batten main - especially since I have the Doyle stacker for my mainsail cover and with the fully battened sail it would fall even easier into the stacker. But it is NOT needed. It would be a luxury, nice if you can afford it. Enjoy.
Zeida
zcecil@attglobal.net
Zeida
zcecil@attglobal.net