Read in Don Casey's book that he used a kerosene lamp on his Triton and it heated the cabin fairly well even in relatively cold weather. Does anyone have a lamp they recommend, and can you comment on the heat output. My new-to-me boat has NO heat currently and we want to do some fall cruising (starting this weekend). I've seen various oil lamps at BoatUS and SailNet websites - are these the same as kerosene? Any help is appreciated,
Dan
foxbd@home.com
Oil Lamp for Heat?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Flower Pot....
Captain Dan,
You didn't say what type of vessel she is. Do you have a stove? If so, buy a standard ceramic flower pot(the orange type), light the burner, put flower pot over flame, and clamp in place with pot holders. Works good for us, and takes the chill off. Oh, and don't worry about carbon monoxide, this does not cause it!
Dave Stump
Hanalei CD-30C
You didn't say what type of vessel she is. Do you have a stove? If so, buy a standard ceramic flower pot(the orange type), light the burner, put flower pot over flame, and clamp in place with pot holders. Works good for us, and takes the chill off. Oh, and don't worry about carbon monoxide, this does not cause it!
Dave Stump
Hanalei CD-30C
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John R.
Re: Oil Lamp for Heat?
Keep in mind that Carbon Monoxide emission will be a big issue when using any combustible source as heat, especially with a closed cabin. The silent killer, no smell, no taste, no color. A lot of people have died and others become very ill from CO exposure in a boat.
My advice would be that you would be far better off with a dedicated boat heater designed to be vented to the outside through the cabin top. In addition, I would still install at least one if not two carbon monoxide detectors such as the Fireboy/Xintex units to be on the safe side.
My advice would be that you would be far better off with a dedicated boat heater designed to be vented to the outside through the cabin top. In addition, I would still install at least one if not two carbon monoxide detectors such as the Fireboy/Xintex units to be on the safe side.
Dan wrote: Read in Don Casey's book that he used a kerosene lamp on his Triton and it heated the cabin fairly well even in relatively cold weather. Does anyone have a lamp they recommend, and can you comment on the heat output. My new-to-me boat has NO heat currently and we want to do some fall cruising (starting this weekend). I've seen various oil lamps at BoatUS and SailNet websites - are these the same as kerosene? Any help is appreciated,
Dan
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Dan
Re: Flower Pot....
Boat is a 1967 Bristol 27 (Alberg design very similar to a CD 27). I've heard of the flower pot trick, but saw some debate about recently on a bulletin board (thought it was this one - maybe not) regarding build up of fumes. Lots of people say they do it, so it would seem safe enough. How do you clamp it in place? What kind of potholder? I may go that route, but would still like to get the lamp for both heat and to minimize use of cabin lights.
BTW, where do you keep your boat? We sailed alongside a CD30 with a similar name (forget what it was) near Annapolis a few weeks ago.
Thanks,
Dan
foxbd@home.com
BTW, where do you keep your boat? We sailed alongside a CD30 with a similar name (forget what it was) near Annapolis a few weeks ago.
Thanks,
Dan
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Captain Dan,
You didn't say what type of vessel she is. Do you have a stove? If so, buy a standard ceramic flower pot(the orange type), light the burner, put flower pot over flame, and clamp in place with pot holders. Works good for us, and takes the chill off. Oh, and don't worry about carbon monoxide, this does not cause it!
Dave Stump
Hanalei CD-30C
foxbd@home.com
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Dan
Re: Carbon Monoxide
OK, here we seem to have two contradictory views on CO. This is similar to the discussion I saw previously. How do we rationalize them?
I have thought about this as intuitively it should be a problem with burning fuels in the cabin, but numerous people (like Casey) say they do it (and no mention of a chimney or other special ventilation). I'm a bit confused and obviously don't want risk CO poisoning.
foxbd@home.com
I have thought about this as intuitively it should be a problem with burning fuels in the cabin, but numerous people (like Casey) say they do it (and no mention of a chimney or other special ventilation). I'm a bit confused and obviously don't want risk CO poisoning.
Dan wrote: Read in Don Casey's book that he used a kerosene lamp on his Triton and it heated the cabin fairly well even in relatively cold weather. Does anyone have a lamp they recommend, and can you comment on the heat output. My new-to-me boat has NO heat currently and we want to do some fall cruising (starting this weekend). I've seen various oil lamps at BoatUS and SailNet websites - are these the same as kerosene? Any help is appreciated,
Dan
foxbd@home.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Oil Lamp for Heat?
Kerosene lamps do throw off a bit of heat, but I sure would not count on that to keep me warm and dry. Depending on your temps, it could take forever to build up enough heat to do any good. The warning about CO is probably a good one to pay attention to, and provide a bit of fresh air while you are heating the place up. I have to wonder how much CO a simple kerosene lamp will put out. Intuitively speaking, I would be surprised if there were a CO buildup problem with one that hangs on the wall for instance. We use a Weems & Plath kerosene lamp for atmosphere and emergency lighting should that become necessary, but we usually don't have the place buttoned up tight either.
We have a wood burning fireplace in our CD30, which is vented to the outside, but does use internal air for combustion. We have used this regularly for 12 years now, any time we are cold or wet. We have never experienced a problem with CO buildup due to the amazing amount of air leaks in the boats companionway, as well as 2 dorades and a solar powered hatch vent which will keep air moving.
But John's warnings should be taken seriously, and precautions taken to prevent a problem. While the sensors mentioned are pricey I believe, you could probably use a home style CO detector mounted low to protect you from CO buildup.
A word about using clay pots on the stove (which also emits CO)..be certain to use UNGLAZED pots. The gasses given off by glazing on pots can be poisonous when heated..especially if they are from Mexico. Be careful..arsenic, cobalt and other heavy metals are used for coloration in some glazes.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
We have a wood burning fireplace in our CD30, which is vented to the outside, but does use internal air for combustion. We have used this regularly for 12 years now, any time we are cold or wet. We have never experienced a problem with CO buildup due to the amazing amount of air leaks in the boats companionway, as well as 2 dorades and a solar powered hatch vent which will keep air moving.
But John's warnings should be taken seriously, and precautions taken to prevent a problem. While the sensors mentioned are pricey I believe, you could probably use a home style CO detector mounted low to protect you from CO buildup.
A word about using clay pots on the stove (which also emits CO)..be certain to use UNGLAZED pots. The gasses given off by glazing on pots can be poisonous when heated..especially if they are from Mexico. Be careful..arsenic, cobalt and other heavy metals are used for coloration in some glazes.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Dan wrote: Read in Don Casey's book that he used a kerosene lamp on his Triton and it heated the cabin fairly well even in relatively cold weather. Does anyone have a lamp they recommend, and can you comment on the heat output. My new-to-me boat has NO heat currently and we want to do some fall cruising (starting this weekend). I've seen various oil lamps at BoatUS and SailNet websites - are these the same as kerosene? Any help is appreciated,
Dan
demers@sgi.com
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Kurt
Don't worry about carbon monoxide?
How can you say "don't worry about carbon monoxide"? Any flame produces CO. Placing a flower pot over a marine stove burner will still produce carbon monoxide and would be deadly in a closed cabin.
kjlgpw@aol.com
kjlgpw@aol.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Don't worry about carbon monoxide?
Kurt,
Not speaking for Dave, what I think he meant was that you use the stove regularly anyway, and it does not seem to cause a problem with CO accumulation, so perhaps there is the expectation that it will also not be a problem if one simply puts a clay pot on top of the stove for a like period of time, and with the understanding that you need to have fresh air allowed into the cabin also.
This method of heating goes back to the beginning of sailing for pleasure. I believe Miles Smeeton used this method occasionally, as did the Hiscocks on Wanderer II. They sailed quite a few miles without problems, so perhaps the fresh air infiltration is higher than we at first think it is, mitigating the danger a bit.
I think the CO detector is a good idea however, just in case.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Lake Superior..fir another couple weeks anyway~~~
demers@sgi.com
Not speaking for Dave, what I think he meant was that you use the stove regularly anyway, and it does not seem to cause a problem with CO accumulation, so perhaps there is the expectation that it will also not be a problem if one simply puts a clay pot on top of the stove for a like period of time, and with the understanding that you need to have fresh air allowed into the cabin also.
This method of heating goes back to the beginning of sailing for pleasure. I believe Miles Smeeton used this method occasionally, as did the Hiscocks on Wanderer II. They sailed quite a few miles without problems, so perhaps the fresh air infiltration is higher than we at first think it is, mitigating the danger a bit.
I think the CO detector is a good idea however, just in case.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Lake Superior..fir another couple weeks anyway~~~
Kurt wrote: How can you say "don't worry about carbon monoxide"? Any flame produces CO. Placing a flower pot over a marine stove burner will still produce carbon monoxide and would be deadly in a closed cabin.
demers@sgi.com
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d. sTUMP, hANALEI
Re: OK, let's not kill this CO thing..
Dan,
It was this site that discussed the CO thin' quite awhile ago when I told someone that I use a flower pot. Understand, the Pot is only a radiator for the flame. The flame is no different than that under a pot of boiling soup. Only thing is, NO soup, cause the flower pots upside down! If that flame is adjusted correctly, not flaming yellow and not throwing soot, it will develop no more CO than it normally would. Ya don't die Matey cookin' ya soup, and this will keep ya warm while ya cook! The pot holders are the metal bars that come with the stove to hold pots in place in a seaway.
Hope this puts this to bed, or in the TUB with those Captains in a few posts before this! !
Dave Stump, Hanalei
It was this site that discussed the CO thin' quite awhile ago when I told someone that I use a flower pot. Understand, the Pot is only a radiator for the flame. The flame is no different than that under a pot of boiling soup. Only thing is, NO soup, cause the flower pots upside down! If that flame is adjusted correctly, not flaming yellow and not throwing soot, it will develop no more CO than it normally would. Ya don't die Matey cookin' ya soup, and this will keep ya warm while ya cook! The pot holders are the metal bars that come with the stove to hold pots in place in a seaway.
Hope this puts this to bed, or in the TUB with those Captains in a few posts before this! !
Dave Stump, Hanalei
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John R.
Re: OK, let's not kill this CO thing..
The idea here is that Dan is trying to obtain heating in his cabin, not cooking soup for a minute or two. This shouldn't be taken lightly in my opinion, regardless of who has done this in the past. Ask the Pardy's about their close call with almost meeting their maker from CO exposure and their boat doesn't have an engine. I believe it was a cabin lampin their case.d. sTUMP, hANALEI wrote: Dan,
It was this site that discussed the CO thin' quite awhile ago when I told someone that I use a flower pot. Understand, the Pot is only a radiator for the flame. The flame is no different than that under a pot of boiling soup. Only thing is, NO soup, cause the flower pots upside down! If that flame is adjusted correctly, not flaming yellow and not throwing soot, it will develop no more CO than it normally would. Ya don't die Matey cookin' ya soup, and this will keep ya warm while ya cook! The pot holders are the metal bars that come with the stove to hold pots in place in a seaway.
Hope this puts this to bed, or in the TUB with those Captains in a few posts before this! !
Dave Stump, Hanalei
We are presumably talking about a closed cabin for an extended period, long enough to build up heat to the point of taking the chill out of the air.
You aren't going to be able to do that with a port open or a hatch open to evacuate the CO buildup unless you are almost sitting on the clay pot. I've done this before with campers and I know what to expect as far as heat output will be vs. appropriate safe ventilation.
It is very important to note that CO is cumulative in the blood stream. You can use the pot for a while and think it harmless and go out into fresh air after getting warm. Awhile later you're back in the cabin turning on the "heater" again and your blood aborbs more CO. Repeat this a few times and you could be subjecting yourself to big trouble depending on the CO concentration in the air everytime you fire up the homemade heater and how long you stay in that enviroment.
If children are on board this is even more critical, and the same for those with other health concerns. This whole concept of heating a enclosed boat cabin with a open flame and a inverted clay pot is not wise, period. This is a big safety issue and it deserves serious consideration as to the potential hazards. It has been a huge topic in recent years with most marine publications and safety groups because it is a highly misunderstood danger and little mind is paid to it. Please be careful, don't take unneccessary chances.
-
Ken Cave
Re: Northwest drizzle!!
Having used various kinds of lamps and heaters in my Catalina 25, I opted for a Force 10 diesel(kerosene) heater which mounts with ease on both the Cape Dory 25 and 28.
The problem with any internal heat that vents into the cabin, you are also adding moisture to the air and that alone can be miserable when it is drizzling outside!
The Force 10 heater from pyacht.com can be had for around $350 with the tank, and with about two hours in work, can be running on your boat. The nice thing about this unit is that it needs only a two inch hole cut into the deck. There is also a preventer that turns it off if (like never) the oxygen level gets a little low.
And, for the past four months I have only used about a gallon of kerosene to keep my boat nice and dry-and warm!!
Sure is nice to wake up in the morning and it is 40 degrees outside, and you can heat up the cabin in twenty minutes to 65!
Hope this helps
Ken Cave
bcave@whidbey.net
The problem with any internal heat that vents into the cabin, you are also adding moisture to the air and that alone can be miserable when it is drizzling outside!
The Force 10 heater from pyacht.com can be had for around $350 with the tank, and with about two hours in work, can be running on your boat. The nice thing about this unit is that it needs only a two inch hole cut into the deck. There is also a preventer that turns it off if (like never) the oxygen level gets a little low.
And, for the past four months I have only used about a gallon of kerosene to keep my boat nice and dry-and warm!!
Sure is nice to wake up in the morning and it is 40 degrees outside, and you can heat up the cabin in twenty minutes to 65!
Hope this helps
Ken Cave
bcave@whidbey.net
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Andy Denmark
Construction brick vs. flower pot
For years I used the flower pot-on-the-burner method on my Dickerson but broke so many of them I took my dockmate's idea of using a construction brick instead -- easier to secure, hold, store, and much more durable -- the same brick (with six holes) lasted for many seasons while the many pots' lives were sometimes measured in hours. This was reliable heat (along with the kero lamp) until last season.
Just before leaving Oriental for southern climes last January, I purchased a unit called "Mr. Heater - Buddy." Mr. Heater uses the same small propane cannisters as some sternrail mounted, self-contained barbecue grilles. It is a small catalytic heater with a piezoelectric lighter, and the cartridges are cheap -- $1.69 each if you buy a 10-pack at Sams, Lowes, K-Mart, etc. The cannisters are about 5" in diameter, 9" in length, and dark green. I paid less than one-hundred dollars for Mr. Heater. Each cannister lasts about 6 hours (on low) and will produce enough heat (on low) to positively run you out of the cabin, making leaving the hatch cracked for ventilation a necessity. We ran it in the early morning and in the evening after the engine heat faded away, always shutting her down before hitting the sack. First thing in the a.m. I would stick out an arm, open the valve and hit the starter button, then back in the rack for a few minutes until the cabin warmed up.
Mr. Heater makes fall/winter sailing more comfortable by several orders of magnitude. Moisture build-up is about the same as with any other open flame heating device. Like other hazards associated with this sport, CO could represent some danger, but if one is prudent, there's no problem. How long did we live with gasoline engines??
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC
trekker@coastalnet.com
Just before leaving Oriental for southern climes last January, I purchased a unit called "Mr. Heater - Buddy." Mr. Heater uses the same small propane cannisters as some sternrail mounted, self-contained barbecue grilles. It is a small catalytic heater with a piezoelectric lighter, and the cartridges are cheap -- $1.69 each if you buy a 10-pack at Sams, Lowes, K-Mart, etc. The cannisters are about 5" in diameter, 9" in length, and dark green. I paid less than one-hundred dollars for Mr. Heater. Each cannister lasts about 6 hours (on low) and will produce enough heat (on low) to positively run you out of the cabin, making leaving the hatch cracked for ventilation a necessity. We ran it in the early morning and in the evening after the engine heat faded away, always shutting her down before hitting the sack. First thing in the a.m. I would stick out an arm, open the valve and hit the starter button, then back in the rack for a few minutes until the cabin warmed up.
Mr. Heater makes fall/winter sailing more comfortable by several orders of magnitude. Moisture build-up is about the same as with any other open flame heating device. Like other hazards associated with this sport, CO could represent some danger, but if one is prudent, there's no problem. How long did we live with gasoline engines??
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC
trekker@coastalnet.com
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Andy Denmark
Re: Construction brick vs. flower pot
I need to add that we always used a First Alert CO detector (tested frequently) whenever Mr Heater was fired up. In addition, the heater has its own low oxygen sensor that automatically cuts off the fuel supply if O2 level drops. (True multi-system redundancy).
AD
trekker@coastalnet.com
AD
trekker@coastalnet.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: OK, let's not kill this CO thing..
You are convincing me John. However, I suspect that normal air leakage in a boat will counteract the CO accumulations..but I don't know this for certain. Since the danger is so hidden, I guess I would recommend erroring on safety's side.
We heat with wood heat..sometimes running that heater for a full day. It uses internal air for combustion, which means that there probably is CO falling out of the burner onto the floor. We do not open a window for ventilation all the time either, yet have never in 12 years had a problem with CO accumulations in our blood. At least we have seen no symptoms, sucha s headaches (which would be present in a significant dosage situation). So there must be enough leakage of fresh air in the boat to take care of the CO. I think we will add a CO detector to answer the question about what we are being exposed to.
Your caution is warranted and appreciated.
Thanks,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
We heat with wood heat..sometimes running that heater for a full day. It uses internal air for combustion, which means that there probably is CO falling out of the burner onto the floor. We do not open a window for ventilation all the time either, yet have never in 12 years had a problem with CO accumulations in our blood. At least we have seen no symptoms, sucha s headaches (which would be present in a significant dosage situation). So there must be enough leakage of fresh air in the boat to take care of the CO. I think we will add a CO detector to answer the question about what we are being exposed to.
Your caution is warranted and appreciated.
Thanks,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
John R. wrote:The idea here is that Dan is trying to obtain heating in his cabin, not cooking soup for a minute or two. This shouldn't be taken lightly in my opinion, regardless of who has done this in the past. Ask the Pardy's about their close call with almost meeting their maker from CO exposure and their boat doesn't have an engine. I believe it was a cabin lampin their case.d. sTUMP, hANALEI wrote: Dan,
It was this site that discussed the CO thin' quite awhile ago when I told someone that I use a flower pot. Understand, the Pot is only a radiator for the flame. The flame is no different than that under a pot of boiling soup. Only thing is, NO soup, cause the flower pots upside down! If that flame is adjusted correctly, not flaming yellow and not throwing soot, it will develop no more CO than it normally would. Ya don't die Matey cookin' ya soup, and this will keep ya warm while ya cook! The pot holders are the metal bars that come with the stove to hold pots in place in a seaway.
Hope this puts this to bed, or in the TUB with those Captains in a few posts before this! !
Dave Stump, Hanalei
We are presumably talking about a closed cabin for an extended period, long enough to build up heat to the point of taking the chill out of the air.
You aren't going to be able to do that with a port open or a hatch open to evacuate the CO buildup unless you are almost sitting on the clay pot. I've done this before with campers and I know what to expect as far as heat output will be vs. appropriate safe ventilation.
It is very important to note that CO is cumulative in the blood stream. You can use the pot for a while and think it harmless and go out into fresh air after getting warm. Awhile later you're back in the cabin turning on the "heater" again and your blood aborbs more CO. Repeat this a few times and you could be subjecting yourself to big trouble depending on the CO concentration in the air everytime you fire up the homemade heater and how long you stay in that enviroment.
If children are on board this is even more critical, and the same for those with other health concerns. This whole concept of heating a enclosed boat cabin with a open flame and a inverted clay pot is not wise, period. This is a big safety issue and it deserves serious consideration as to the potential hazards. It has been a huge topic in recent years with most marine publications and safety groups because it is a highly misunderstood danger and little mind is paid to it. Please be careful, don't take unneccessary chances.
demers@sgi.com
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Northwest drizzle!!
Ken,
There are some things about that Force 10 heater that are truly not safe, in my opinion. First and foremost...the flame is exposed to the open cabin. That means that if you accidently flip a blanket and it happens to fall near the burner..it will catch on fire. Kids around the fire would also be a dangerous situation. The flame must be covered with a glass window at least. Secondly, it uses internal air for combustion, which allows the moisture to stay in the cabin..not get exhausted out of the boat.
Lastly, the flame controller has to be either on or off. There is no in-between setting that is allowed, or there will be sooty emissions from the burner..something that will stink to high heaven for a long time. Also, if there happens to be a downdraft in your future, the sooty,oily mess will stink for the rest of the year.
Dickinson has a new propane heater, that has a bi-axial flue that exhaustss the gases outside, and brings in air from outside for combustion. The flame box is covered completely with a high quality door with glass in it. It has a piezo-electric lighter, and a flame out detector. It has a good heat output, a totally flexible stainless steel biaxial hose, and it requires a 3 in. hole in the roof.
This is a much better solution for the heater than the open flame, or even my wood burner, if I had propane onboard (not yet).
My neighbor with another CD30 installed the same heater you have now, and has experienced all of the things I mentioned.
Sincerely,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
There are some things about that Force 10 heater that are truly not safe, in my opinion. First and foremost...the flame is exposed to the open cabin. That means that if you accidently flip a blanket and it happens to fall near the burner..it will catch on fire. Kids around the fire would also be a dangerous situation. The flame must be covered with a glass window at least. Secondly, it uses internal air for combustion, which allows the moisture to stay in the cabin..not get exhausted out of the boat.
Lastly, the flame controller has to be either on or off. There is no in-between setting that is allowed, or there will be sooty emissions from the burner..something that will stink to high heaven for a long time. Also, if there happens to be a downdraft in your future, the sooty,oily mess will stink for the rest of the year.
Dickinson has a new propane heater, that has a bi-axial flue that exhaustss the gases outside, and brings in air from outside for combustion. The flame box is covered completely with a high quality door with glass in it. It has a piezo-electric lighter, and a flame out detector. It has a good heat output, a totally flexible stainless steel biaxial hose, and it requires a 3 in. hole in the roof.
This is a much better solution for the heater than the open flame, or even my wood burner, if I had propane onboard (not yet).
My neighbor with another CD30 installed the same heater you have now, and has experienced all of the things I mentioned.
Sincerely,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Ken Cave wrote: Having used various kinds of lamps and heaters in my Catalina 25, I opted for a Force 10 diesel(kerosene) heater which mounts with ease on both the Cape Dory 25 and 28.
The problem with any internal heat that vents into the cabin, you are also adding moisture to the air and that alone can be miserable when it is drizzling outside!
The Force 10 heater from pyacht.com can be had for around $350 with the tank, and with about two hours in work, can be running on your boat. The nice thing about this unit is that it needs only a two inch hole cut into the deck. There is also a preventer that turns it off if (like never) the oxygen level gets a little low.
And, for the past four months I have only used about a gallon of kerosene to keep my boat nice and dry-and warm!!
Sure is nice to wake up in the morning and it is 40 degrees outside, and you can heat up the cabin in twenty minutes to 65!
Hope this helps
Ken Cave
demers@sgi.com