C.A.R.D. instead of Radar?

[Patrick Turner]

Does anybody out there have any experience with the Collision Avoidance Radar Detection system otherwise known as C.A.R.D.? I've been thinking of installing Radar, primarily as a collision avoidance system. I would think that a good GPS with chartplotter would be just as good if not better then radar for making your way through low visability situations, so why not just have a system that warns you when radar is present? I know practically nothing about the C.A.R.D. system other then it draws very little power and can tell you how many and from wich direction the radar signals are coming from. I know an old sailor that uses a low tech version of this and has for many years.....it's just a "fuzz buster" mounted on his boat.....you know, those radar detectors you can buy for your car. I like the idea of keeping things simple and this seems like a possibility. Anyone out there care to share first hand experience or knowledge with this sort of thing?

Pat



patrick.t@home.com

[Jim]

Brilliant idea! I usually go out in fog in my CD 25 with my GPS, Radar reflector, depth sounder, VHF on 16 and a good set of ears. My thought has always been that any one else stupid enough to be out there in the fog must have radar! Of course this fails miserably when the wind dies and I have to use my engine. I cannot hear a thing. Collision avoidance with range if possible would be just the ticket. Please let me know if you find anything.



jmyers@styluscentral.com

[Tom]

No personal ezperience, but we have friends who tried to use one sailing to Guam about 15 years ago. Now this was 15 years ago and I dn't know what brand or anything and they've probably gotten better since then and all that, but... He found that if you set the sensitivity high enough that it would actually respond then it was going off all the time even when there wasn't anything around in the middle of the Pacific and keeping him up at night. If he set the sensitivity low enough that it didn't give false alerts then it didn't respond when boats using radar came close by. He deep sixed it as a good idea that didn't work, but now you'll probably get a whole series of posts saying that they work fine and that WAS 15 years ago, so take this for what it's worth.

Does anybody out there have any experience with the Collision Avoidance Radar Detection system otherwise known as C.A.R.D.? I've been thinking of installing Radar, primarily as a collision avoidance system. I would think that a good GPS with chartplotter would be just as good if not better then radar for making your way through low visability situations, so why not just have a system that warns you when radar is present? I know practically nothing about the C.A.R.D. system other then it draws very little power and can tell you how many and from wich direction the radar signals are coming from. I know an old sailor that uses a low tech version of this and has for many years.....it's just a "fuzz buster" mounted on his boat.....you know, those radar detectors you can buy for your car. I like the idea of keeping things simple and this seems like a possibility. Anyone out there care to share first hand experience or knowledge with this sort of thing?

Pat

TomCambria@mindwpring.com

[mike mascaros]

hi pat...thats a great concept...and im interested in comments...myself had no experience with radar it allways seemed complicated and expensive...i would rather stay in port and have another beer if weather calls for radar usage....but cant make any comments about folks with radar in their boats they sure feel safe having this equipment available....
cheers/mike s/v compinche cd30c



compinchecd30@yahoo.com

[matt cawthorne]

Never underestimate how stupid people can be. Two years ago I decided to break down and buy a GPS. Two weeks later my trusty dog, Chum, and I anchored overnight in the Magothy river and desired to head back to the marina on Sunday morning. A fog settled in so we waited until it began to burn off before heading home. When leaving the river and entering the Chesapeake the fog came back. I switched on the GPS and started using the air horn. There was a light breeze and I sailed on a close reach at about 4 knots. When approaching the Craighill channel I put out a securite message for large ships, received no response so crossed the channel. I could hear motors now and then, but no one else was using their sound signals and I could not accurately detect their direction. The fog was thick enough that I could only see about 75 to 100 feet ahead of the bow. About an hour later someone called the USCG and wanted the USCG to tell them where they were. I always feel these calls are amusing, but in this case it turns out that this was a 50+ foot Hatteras motor boat without radar who was doing 18 knots by his own admission. As the radio call unfolded I realized that this guy crossed my path in that fog. Based on my position, his heading, speed and last known position I suspect that he was very close when our paths crossed. He could not have been seeing more than two boat lenghts in front of himself. In this case the CARD system would have told me nothing. A little while later the fog began to burn off. There were no less than 20 fishing boats in the area. Not one had radar that I could see and not one was using sound signals. At least they were anchored. I bought a radar. You can get a low end unit for around a thousand dollars. Add the cost of a mount and installation you are closer to 2000 dollars.

As for the CARD system, mount the antenna on your stern rail. Many people mounted them on the mast and got many indications from ships that were well over the horizon. You generally do not want to awaken the whole crew during the night for a ship that will never come near you.

Matt



mcawthor@bellatlantic.net

[Brian W.]

It's no substitute for actual radar, but when cruising, I usually bring my car's radar detector with me and plug it in if there's thick fog. It's not a perfect system, but I figure if it goes off far from land, extra care should be taken on watch. I suppose pointing it in a slow 360 and checking the signal strenght LED's would help determine the direction of the radar.

Defender sells a C.A.R.D unit for $449. Unlike the improvised setup above, it has a small (and simple) display that shows the direction of the radar in 45 degree incriments. But it may well be that this system is no better than a good quality car radar detector, which can be had for far less. not sure.

Regards,

Brian
CD33

[Neil Gordon]

>>Of course this fails miserably when the wind dies and I have to use my engine. I cannot hear a thing.<<

Conventional wisdom is to idle the engine periodically and listen carefully for what might be out there. You don't need a watch... the increasing paranoia will let you know when it's time.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



cdory28@aol.com

[Neil Gordon]

>>...i would rather stay in port and have another beer if weather calls for radar usage...<<

Depending on where you sail, sometimes fog just happens. New England waters are cold and fog is common. It's not fun, but you have to be prepared for what comes.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



cdory28@aol.com

[Patrick Turner]

Hi Matt,

Do you think that radar would have helped you in the scenario you described? My understanding of Radar is that it's weak spot is in accurately detecting objects that are relatively close by....like the fishing boats and Hatteras sound like they were. And now that you have your Radar, are you pleased with what it's telling you?

Pat



patric.t@home.com

[John R.]

Does anybody out there have any experience with the Collision Avoidance Radar Detection system otherwise known as C.A.R.D.? I've been thinking of installing Radar, primarily as a collision avoidance system. I would think that a good GPS with chartplotter would be just as good if not better then radar for making your way through low visability situations, so why not just have a system that warns you when radar is present? I know practically nothing about the C.A.R.D. system other then it draws very little power and can tell you how many and from wich direction the radar signals are coming from. I know an old sailor that uses a low tech version of this and has for many years.....it's just a "fuzz buster" mounted on his boat.....you know, those radar detectors you can buy for your car. I like the idea of keeping things simple and this seems like a possibility. Anyone out there care to share first hand experience or knowledge with this sort of thing?

Pat

I've got an older Lokata Watchman unit that was originally marketed IMI (International Marine Instruments). I don't know if the unit is still made or even available. They were manufactured in England.

The concept of it is the same general thing as the CARD unit. The Watchman can be handheld in the cockpit where as a CARD unit is a fixed antenna with a hard wired control display box. I believe it uses indicating LEDS to show the approximate position of a detected radar relative to your vessel. The Watchman is a sort of Radio Direction Finder concept. It will activate an alarm when a radar signal is picked up within 5 miles. If there is more than one radar it will assign a different alarm indentifier tone to each one. You can leave the unit in it's charger base below deck. The charger base has a fixed remote antenna attached to it that mounts high inside the boat. You leave the unit on (25 mv)when in the charger base and it still is charging the battery pack while monitoring for radar signals. If an alarm goes off you can take the unit out into the cockpit and set the sensitivity to high and then scan the horizon with it. When it picks up the signal you start turning down the sensitivity which narrows the possible angle of the radar position. You use it sort of like one of those treasure scanners you see people walking along the beach with.

Essentially you narrow down the possible direction of the radar and once the signal is very strong and the sensitivity is very low then you just take a bearing off the ships compass. This can be done for several radar signals because each has the unique tone associated with it.

If you can find one of these units they work real well. I see them around occassionaly at consignment shops and electronics stores in the used gear section.

The CARD unit does basically the same thing but it is fixed. I don't know if it will assign unique identifiers to different radar signals though. The CARD system has had good reviews and the cost is reasonable. I was searching the web for used electronics and I saw a couple of the Watchmans listed on inventory pages. Sorry, don't have a record of what sites they were at.

One thing to remember, these detectors don't tell you a thing about vessels without radar. And neither do they tell you about rocks, or pilings, or bridges, or floting containers, ice bergs, etc. Radar is the way to go. When we got the Watchman you couldn't get a radar in the cockpit of a sailboat under 40 feet that wasn't a major PIA to install. Now you can get a JRC for $799, that's a great unit for the money and the peace of mind it affords. Keep in mind JRC was the main manufacturer for Raytheon equipment for years, very good quality. The other end is going with a radar capable of chartplotting, best of both worlds. No radar detector can come close to a EBL line superimposed over a chart depiction in combination with a perimeter alarm set.

However, the ships juice it requires to run that as opposed to a detector while sleeping or just under sail is a big difference. A lot to think about.

I think during the last year Practical sailor did a review of the CARD unit.

[Neil Gordon]

>>I would think that a good GPS with chartplotter would be just as good if not better then radar for making your way through low visability situations, ...<<

In a pinch, a compass, chart, heavy weight and a long length of line can be pretty effective. (Batteries not required to stay alive!)

I'm not sure about the C.A.R.D. system. On smaller vessels (which can travel at high speed) what's the radar range? When the alarm goes off, you know they are out there, but do you know their course and speed? Is there risk of collission? How much time until they hit you? What direction do you go to get out of their way? If they are the stand on vessel... and you attempt to get out of the way... and they hit you anyway... who's liable?

I don't think it's a viable collision avoidance device. I've always seen its value offshore where singlehanders can't maintain a constant watch and need something to wake them if another vessel is in the vicinity.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



cdory28@aol.com

[John R.]

Hi Matt,

Do you think that radar would have helped you in the scenario you described? My understanding of Radar is that it's weak spot is in accurately detecting objects that are relatively close by....like the fishing boats and Hatteras sound like they were. And now that you have your Radar, are you pleased with what it's telling you?

Pat

You are correct that is their shortcoming. Close in clutter is the problem.

[Patrick Turner]

John,

The Watchman is still available....I was surfing around for info on "Collision Avoidance Radar Device" and came across a site that featured the new version of the Watchman. It is similar in concept to the C.A.R.D., the difference being that there is now display that shows you where the signal is coming from. As you describe, I think you have to "focus" in on it with the antenna. I don't think this is a liability really. My feeling is....the more you have to participate in probelm solving process (in other words-not just letting electronics do it all) the better. Without having to go to caveman techonology, there must be a happy compromise.

Pat



patrick.t@home.com

[Steve Alarcon]

Hi Pat,

We have used our radar at night and in heavy drizzle(kinda like your fog, but wetter)on both the 36 and the 30. Haven't had the chance to experiece fog yet. On every unit I have seen you can tune out much of the clutter so that you are painting only what you need to. It does take some practice to figure it out; I learned by using the radar under good visibility and matching what I saw to what was on the screen.

Steve Alarcon
CD36 Tenacity



alarcon3@prodigy.net

[John R.]

John,

The Watchman is still available....I was surfing around for info on "Collision Avoidance Radar Device" and came across a site that featured the new version of the Watchman. It is similar in concept to the C.A.R.D., the difference being that there is now display that shows you where the signal is coming from. As you describe, I think you have to "focus" in on it with the antenna. I don't think this is a liability really. My feeling is....the more you have to participate in probelm solving process (in other words-not just letting electronics do it all) the better. Without having to go to caveman techonology, there must be a happy compromise.

Pat

Great Pat, glad to hear it is available, good little piece of equipment to have as an extra tool. can you post a link to the site where you saw the newer generation unit? By the way they made a great little handheld RDF also. I still have one of those also but it is broken (by me) and needs a couple of small parts. An RDF is still a very dependable and useful navigation tool.