Anyone know what type of alternator is on the Universal 25 diesel that came with my CD31? Furthermore is it compatible with the use of battery isolators?
Thanks,
Michael Soloway
CD31 #60 "Puffin"
m@msoloway.com
Alternator
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Larry DeMers
Re: Alternator
More than probably it is an automotive type alternator with internal regulator. This means that it references it's output to the voltage it sees at it's output terminals only. There is no way to shape the charge protocol to fit the battery type you are using...without rewiring the alternators field connection to an external terminal, then providing an external regulator (Heart Interface or West Marine or Cruising Equipment etc.) that references the voltage at the battery post or common positive feed buss.
Now to the battery isolator part of your question.
I have used one, and do not like them. Unless you rewire your alternator to use an external regulator, and reference that regulator to the isolators input along with a series diode so that the sense line has one diode voltage drop in it (which then matches the voltage dropped in the diode found in the isolator, compensating for this 600mV drop).,,well, unless you do all this, your bank of batteries will never ever reach full charge, and their life expectance would suffer.
A better choice is a newer device called a Battery Combiner. West, Heart and Crusiing Equip. make one of these. They are set up for a 2 or 3 bank setup. They sense the battery voltage and the incoming charge voltage, and whenever the incoming charge voltage (any source) rises above the threshold you preset in the device, and also exceed the battery voltages, then it will turn on the relays for the batteries and combine them in parallel to be charged. As soon as the max. voltage is reached, indicating that the three banks are fully charged, the combiner opens up, disconnecting the parallel connection. This eliminates watching which bank gets charged first, etc. Although I think I would now use three single bank units rather than a single three bank unit, to allow more flexibility, the idea and product are very good quality, and seem to work fairly well. Try this approach instead of the Battery Isolator.
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
Now to the battery isolator part of your question.
I have used one, and do not like them. Unless you rewire your alternator to use an external regulator, and reference that regulator to the isolators input along with a series diode so that the sense line has one diode voltage drop in it (which then matches the voltage dropped in the diode found in the isolator, compensating for this 600mV drop).,,well, unless you do all this, your bank of batteries will never ever reach full charge, and their life expectance would suffer.
A better choice is a newer device called a Battery Combiner. West, Heart and Crusiing Equip. make one of these. They are set up for a 2 or 3 bank setup. They sense the battery voltage and the incoming charge voltage, and whenever the incoming charge voltage (any source) rises above the threshold you preset in the device, and also exceed the battery voltages, then it will turn on the relays for the batteries and combine them in parallel to be charged. As soon as the max. voltage is reached, indicating that the three banks are fully charged, the combiner opens up, disconnecting the parallel connection. This eliminates watching which bank gets charged first, etc. Although I think I would now use three single bank units rather than a single three bank unit, to allow more flexibility, the idea and product are very good quality, and seem to work fairly well. Try this approach instead of the Battery Isolator.
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Michael Soloway wrote: Anyone know what type of alternator is on the Universal 25 diesel that came with my CD31? Furthermore is it compatible with the use of battery isolators?
Thanks,
Michael Soloway
CD31 #60 "Puffin"
demers@sgi.com
-
Michael Soloway
Re: Further battery stuff
Thanks Larry,
Here is what I have and it is what I found in the boat when I bought it this year. There is a single battery (call it #1) which is labelled "Engine Battery" and I assume that it is supposed to be the protected battery for cranking the motor. Then there are 2 more batteries wired together (+ to = and - to -) and they are labelled "House Batteries". I believe that these can be treated as one battery and I will call these #2. Of course there is a selector switch "#1, #2, all and off". There is also a Charger/Inverter by Guest wired individually to all of them and that runs on AC. One morning, after I thought that I had been using only #2 all night at an anchorage, I couldn't crank the motor in the morninbg. Have chercked all the cells, liquids and used a tester on all of them. The batteries seem to take and hold a good charge. So I became nervous. I would like to be certain that I have #1 ready and available to start the motor at all times. That is where my idea of the isolator came in - actually it came from a book called "The 12 Volt Bible. Interestingly, when I looked it all over, #2 has it's positive terminals connected and then both #1 and #2 have separate red leads coming off of their positive terminals respectively going I assume to the selector switch. However, the neg terminals of #2 are wired together and then they are connected to the neg terminal on #1 and then that terminal has a black lead going off somewhere - I assume to the switch. Any further thoughts on how I can idealize this system?
m@msoloway.com
Here is what I have and it is what I found in the boat when I bought it this year. There is a single battery (call it #1) which is labelled "Engine Battery" and I assume that it is supposed to be the protected battery for cranking the motor. Then there are 2 more batteries wired together (+ to = and - to -) and they are labelled "House Batteries". I believe that these can be treated as one battery and I will call these #2. Of course there is a selector switch "#1, #2, all and off". There is also a Charger/Inverter by Guest wired individually to all of them and that runs on AC. One morning, after I thought that I had been using only #2 all night at an anchorage, I couldn't crank the motor in the morninbg. Have chercked all the cells, liquids and used a tester on all of them. The batteries seem to take and hold a good charge. So I became nervous. I would like to be certain that I have #1 ready and available to start the motor at all times. That is where my idea of the isolator came in - actually it came from a book called "The 12 Volt Bible. Interestingly, when I looked it all over, #2 has it's positive terminals connected and then both #1 and #2 have separate red leads coming off of their positive terminals respectively going I assume to the selector switch. However, the neg terminals of #2 are wired together and then they are connected to the neg terminal on #1 and then that terminal has a black lead going off somewhere - I assume to the switch. Any further thoughts on how I can idealize this system?
Larry DeMers wrote: Thanks,
Michael Soloway wrote: Michael Soloway
CD31 #60 "Puffin"
m@msoloway.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Further battery stuff -some ideas for you
Mike,
You have the two house banks paralleled, with separate feeds to a switch. But that 1-2-both-off switch selects between the the combined house batteries or the starting battery to supply house power (I assume from your description).
What I would do is install the 3 Battery combiner from Heart Interface. Feed your alternator output to the common feed tie point on the Combiner, and then run the individual batteries to the Combiner terminals. You will separate the two house banks that are currently wired in parallel. The problem with your existing arrangement, although currently popular, is that one bad cell now will discharge the whole house bank of two batteries. Separate those two batteries, using the Battery Combiner to do so. Run your two house battery feeds from the combiner to a 1-2-both off switch which will select which bank to use, 1 - 2 both or neither. The output of the 1-2-both-off switch would go to the breaker panel of course.
Your problem sounds like the starting battery was used for the house battery accidently. Check the electrolyte in all three banks several times over the summer too.
Now if you really want to get truly independant and wire that electrical system up for Solar/PV cells, or a wind gen. etc., you just tie the regulator for these devices into the common tie point input on the Battery Combiner, alongside the alternator and shore charger outputs. Pretty neat device.
Cheers,
Larry (Will be gone for 3 weeks sailing starting this Friday, so write soon if you need more detail or discussion on these topics).
demers@sgi.com
You have the two house banks paralleled, with separate feeds to a switch. But that 1-2-both-off switch selects between the the combined house batteries or the starting battery to supply house power (I assume from your description).
What I would do is install the 3 Battery combiner from Heart Interface. Feed your alternator output to the common feed tie point on the Combiner, and then run the individual batteries to the Combiner terminals. You will separate the two house banks that are currently wired in parallel. The problem with your existing arrangement, although currently popular, is that one bad cell now will discharge the whole house bank of two batteries. Separate those two batteries, using the Battery Combiner to do so. Run your two house battery feeds from the combiner to a 1-2-both off switch which will select which bank to use, 1 - 2 both or neither. The output of the 1-2-both-off switch would go to the breaker panel of course.
Your problem sounds like the starting battery was used for the house battery accidently. Check the electrolyte in all three banks several times over the summer too.
Now if you really want to get truly independant and wire that electrical system up for Solar/PV cells, or a wind gen. etc., you just tie the regulator for these devices into the common tie point input on the Battery Combiner, alongside the alternator and shore charger outputs. Pretty neat device.
Cheers,
Larry (Will be gone for 3 weeks sailing starting this Friday, so write soon if you need more detail or discussion on these topics).
Michael Soloway wrote: Thanks Larry,
Here is what I have and it is what I found in the boat when I bought it this year. There is a single battery (call it #1) which is labelled "Engine Battery" and I assume that it is supposed to be the protected battery for cranking the motor. Then there are 2 more batteries wired together (+ to = and - to -) and they are labelled "House Batteries". I believe that these can be treated as one battery and I will call these #2. Of course there is a selector switch "#1, #2, all and off". There is also a Charger/Inverter by Guest wired individually to all of them and that runs on AC. One morning, after I thought that I had been using only #2 all night at an anchorage, I couldn't crank the motor in the morninbg. Have chercked all the cells, liquids and used a tester on all of them. The batteries seem to take and hold a good charge. So I became nervous. I would like to be certain that I have #1 ready and available to start the motor at all times. That is where my idea of the isolator came in - actually it came from a book called "The 12 Volt Bible. Interestingly, when I looked it all over, #2 has it's positive terminals connected and then both #1 and #2 have separate red leads coming off of their positive terminals respectively going I assume to the selector switch. However, the neg terminals of #2 are wired together and then they are connected to the neg terminal on #1 and then that terminal has a black lead going off somewhere - I assume to the switch. Any further thoughts on how I can idealize this system?Larry DeMers wrote: Thanks,
Michael Soloway wrote: Michael Soloway
CD31 #60 "Puffin"
demers@sgi.com
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John Nuttall
Are you saying that....
......all your batteries check out re taking and holding a charge? Connections OK? Your alternator is working fine? But you still don't have enough juice in Bank 1 to kick her over ?
Does this happen frequently? Or intermittently? Have you looked at the ignition switch and wiring? Checked for corrosion? There was extensive conversation about this a couple years ago...search function might find it.
Larry's suggestion about the combiner is a good one, but a bad cell (as he already pointed out) won't get fixed by a combiner. Niether will a faulty switch.
One other thing to check is your shore power charger. Many have some sort of reset feature that gets tripped (often by shore side power surges and other anomalies). When powered up, it may look like it is on, but it isn't charging. You might want to troubleshoot it?
If you follow the troubleshooting info in the 12 Volt Doctor you'll get this sorted out.
G'luk
John
S/V Aimless
CD31 #28 '84
Hmpt: Oriental, NC
aimless@nc.rr.com
Does this happen frequently? Or intermittently? Have you looked at the ignition switch and wiring? Checked for corrosion? There was extensive conversation about this a couple years ago...search function might find it.
Larry's suggestion about the combiner is a good one, but a bad cell (as he already pointed out) won't get fixed by a combiner. Niether will a faulty switch.
One other thing to check is your shore power charger. Many have some sort of reset feature that gets tripped (often by shore side power surges and other anomalies). When powered up, it may look like it is on, but it isn't charging. You might want to troubleshoot it?
If you follow the troubleshooting info in the 12 Volt Doctor you'll get this sorted out.
G'luk
John
S/V Aimless
CD31 #28 '84
Hmpt: Oriental, NC
aimless@nc.rr.com
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len
Re: Alternator
michael
it is fairly easy to replace the original alternator with a higher output one and it makes a dramatic difference - hansen engineering in marblehead, mass, sold me one that they said was right for that engine and it has worked out well
adding a third battery (so the house bank has two) also makes a difference if you do any extended cruising
len
md.frel@nwh.org
it is fairly easy to replace the original alternator with a higher output one and it makes a dramatic difference - hansen engineering in marblehead, mass, sold me one that they said was right for that engine and it has worked out well
adding a third battery (so the house bank has two) also makes a difference if you do any extended cruising
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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Michael Soloway
Re: Further further battery stuff
Are you suggesting that I separate out the 2 batteries that now constitute what I call #2 (my house battery/ies)? Add yet another 1-2-all-off switch? I think that I very well may have been drawing off of all of the batteries by mistake when that happened (which so far was only once). Still the 2 house batteries are wired together +-+, and -to- with a single + lead to the switch. I would have thought that I would treat those 2 batteries as one and use the device to keep #1 and #2 separated - but I am repeating myself. I guess that I justy didn't quite grasp what you were saying. I am also going sailing for 10ndays next week, so I would like to sort this thing out. How about one more response before leaving?
Having a problem with a water system pump that won't shut off (leak?)-but that is for another day.
Thanks all,
Michael Soloway
CD31#60 "Puffin"
Lincoln Harbor, NJ
m@msoloway.com
Having a problem with a water system pump that won't shut off (leak?)-but that is for another day.
Thanks all,
Michael Soloway
CD31#60 "Puffin"
Lincoln Harbor, NJ
m@msoloway.com
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Ken Coit
Re: Further further battery stuff
Not to speak for Larry, but....
You need to separate the two ganged batteries making up your #2 house battery into two house batteries: #2 and #3. This will prevent one bad battery from draining the good battery. When you mistakenly had all the batteries in parallel, you had the chance for one bad battery to take down all three.
Either switches or the combiner will work, but you really need the batteries to be separated for use and combined for charging. A link to a .pdf document on installing combiners is provided below. Needless to say, the automatic nature of the combiner can save some embarassing moments. And while you are at it, don't forget that you must not remove the load from the alternator before it stops. A Zap-stop can help protect the alternator, but careful operation is best.
As for the water pump running continuously, we had a similar problem. We replaced a filter in order to stop the leaking aboard Parfait. The O-ring was beyond servicability and not readily available. Now we have a spare filter too!
Ken
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
parfait@nc.rr.com
You need to separate the two ganged batteries making up your #2 house battery into two house batteries: #2 and #3. This will prevent one bad battery from draining the good battery. When you mistakenly had all the batteries in parallel, you had the chance for one bad battery to take down all three.
Either switches or the combiner will work, but you really need the batteries to be separated for use and combined for charging. A link to a .pdf document on installing combiners is provided below. Needless to say, the automatic nature of the combiner can save some embarassing moments. And while you are at it, don't forget that you must not remove the load from the alternator before it stops. A Zap-stop can help protect the alternator, but careful operation is best.
As for the water pump running continuously, we had a similar problem. We replaced a filter in order to stop the leaking aboard Parfait. The O-ring was beyond servicability and not readily available. Now we have a spare filter too!
Ken
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Michael Soloway wrote: Are you suggesting that I separate out the 2 batteries that now constitute what I call #2 (my house battery/ies)? Add yet another 1-2-all-off switch? I think that I very well may have been drawing off of all of the batteries by mistake when that happened (which so far was only once). Still the 2 house batteries are wired together +-+, and -to- with a single + lead to the switch. I would have thought that I would treat those 2 batteries as one and use the device to keep #1 and #2 separated - but I am repeating myself. I guess that I justy didn't quite grasp what you were saying. I am also going sailing for 10ndays next week, so I would like to sort this thing out. How about one more response before leaving?
Having a problem with a water system pump that won't shut off (leak?)-but that is for another day.
Thanks all,
Michael Soloway
CD31#60 "Puffin"
Lincoln Harbor, NJ
parfait@nc.rr.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Further further battery stuff
Mike,
Yes..separate those house batteries! Put one only on a switch. Use the Battery Combiner if you have the opportunity to install one before leaving, but atleast separate the batteries and put in a separate switch to control when that bank is used..or not.
It is essential to have control over the power on the boat. Especially if you are moving into areas that have no repair facilities. I am leaving for the wilds of Northern Superior in a few days, and will be several days from the nearest town, and a week from the nearest repair facilities, so virtually everything we need for three weeks will need to be carried on the boat. What a job!
I will be around thru tomorrow morning. Write me direct at demers @sgi.com if you have more Q's. I would be happy to help out.
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Superior's North Coast and wilderness areas~~
demers@sgi.com
Yes..separate those house batteries! Put one only on a switch. Use the Battery Combiner if you have the opportunity to install one before leaving, but atleast separate the batteries and put in a separate switch to control when that bank is used..or not.
It is essential to have control over the power on the boat. Especially if you are moving into areas that have no repair facilities. I am leaving for the wilds of Northern Superior in a few days, and will be several days from the nearest town, and a week from the nearest repair facilities, so virtually everything we need for three weeks will need to be carried on the boat. What a job!
I will be around thru tomorrow morning. Write me direct at demers @sgi.com if you have more Q's. I would be happy to help out.
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Superior's North Coast and wilderness areas~~
Michael Soloway wrote: Are you suggesting that I separate out the 2 batteries that now constitute what I call #2 (my house battery/ies)? Add yet another 1-2-all-off switch? I think that I very well may have been drawing off of all of the batteries by mistake when that happened (which so far was only once). Still the 2 house batteries are wired together +-+, and -to- with a single + lead to the switch. I would have thought that I would treat those 2 batteries as one and use the device to keep #1 and #2 separated - but I am repeating myself. I guess that I justy didn't quite grasp what you were saying. I am also going sailing for 10ndays next week, so I would like to sort this thing out. How about one more response before leaving?
Having a problem with a water system pump that won't shut off (leak?)-but that is for another day.
Thanks all,
Michael Soloway
CD31#60 "Puffin"
Lincoln Harbor, NJ
demers@sgi.com
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Michael Soloway
OK Water pump problems too
Ken,
What filter did you replace and where is it located on your boat? The pump on my boat does not actually run wide open continuously but after the system regains pressure, it goes tick-tick-tick continuously like a stuck relay or something. We just turn off the switch on the panel becuase I am sure if I left it somethomng would burn out somewhere.
Michael
m@msoloway.com
What filter did you replace and where is it located on your boat? The pump on my boat does not actually run wide open continuously but after the system regains pressure, it goes tick-tick-tick continuously like a stuck relay or something. We just turn off the switch on the panel becuase I am sure if I left it somethomng would burn out somewhere.
Michael
m@msoloway.com
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Ken Coit
Re: OK Water pump problems too
Michael,
On Parfait there is a small filter ahead of the pump, and after the manifold and tanks. It is located on the starboard side of the engine compartment and is supported by the hoses. It isn't big, but it can cause the problem you are describing.
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
On Parfait there is a small filter ahead of the pump, and after the manifold and tanks. It is located on the starboard side of the engine compartment and is supported by the hoses. It isn't big, but it can cause the problem you are describing.
Ken
Michael Soloway wrote: Ken,
What filter did you replace and where is it located on your boat? The pump on my boat does not actually run wide open continuously but after the system regains pressure, it goes tick-tick-tick continuously like a stuck relay or something. We just turn off the switch on the panel becuase I am sure if I left it somethomng would burn out somewhere.
Michael
parfait@nc.rr.com