Roller Furling Headsail for CD30

[Chris Schnell]

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC



swabbie@compaq.net

[Larry DeMers]

This depends on your sailing area and style to some extent. But in general, the CD30 will benefit from a roller furling genoa of around 140%. While there is a place for the 100% yankee cut, certainly in a open water passage, this would be the workhorse of choice due to the high clew, I believe that the majority of conditions would be perfect for a 140 Genoa capable of being reefed thru 90 % at least. This will require that you have foam pads installed in the luff, a double swivel at the top of the forestay to allow the reefer to work right, and as we did, consider making the genoa from 3 progressively heavier weights of cloth, in order to withstand the increased winds when reefed.

We fly the genoa in winds up to about 25-30 knts., although it has been reefed since about 18-20 kts. It depends on the gusts involved, and sea conditions too.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC

demers@sgi.com

[Andrew Blight]

I would cast a vote for the Yankee, having changed from a genoa a few years ago. a) Why have a cutter rig and then rely on a big, heavy genny that is half rolled up into a lump much of the time? b) In winds so weak that you get real advantage from the genny, you would probably be better off furling the jib and putting up a nice big nylon drifter (or starting the engine). c) tacking a genny in the 30C is a real pain.

The 30 moves beautifully under full working sail in remarkably light (consistent) winds, considering how much lead you are pulling around. I think there is a general tendency to grossly over-canvas sailboats and to confuse angle of heel with speed.
AB

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC

[Don Metznik]

You may be interested in the genoa I just ordered. It is designed for cruising the south shore of Long Island, with a mix of low wind days, moderate winds (10-15 mph) and some gusty days around 25 mph. I intend to furl the genoa (and my inmast main) to achieve balance under most of the conditions. You should also know that I removed the inner stay used for the staysail.

I just orderd a 140% dacron radial cut from North Sails. North uses a new technology of a padded luff that allows good sail shape when it is furled. I ordered the clew to be 2.5' above the deck when it fully extended, for ease of visibility.

I'd be happy to share other details with you.

Don
Magic Dragon
CD 30 #239



don@metznik.com

[Gary McDonough]

My 30' (#333) came with a 130 jib which was a real nuisance because you had to roll if in most of the way to tack. I opted for the traditional Yankee and love it with the exception of a broad reach/run in light winds. To help counter that problem I did purchase an asymetrical spinnaker this year.

One other nice aspect of the high cut Yankee is unlimited visibilty on the leeward side even when heeled at 25 to 30 degrees.

Gary



garym@taxinvest.com

[Don Metznik]

You may be interested in the genoa I just ordered. It is designed for cruising the south shore of Long Island, with a mix of low wind days, moderate winds (10-15 mph) and some gusty days around 25 mph. I intend to furl the genoa (and my inmast main) to achieve balance under most of the conditions. You should also know that I removed the inner stay used for the staysail.

I just orderd a 140% dacron radial cut from North Sails. North uses a new technology of a padded luff that allows good sail shape when it is furled. I ordered the clew to be 2.5' above the deck when it fully extended, for ease of visibility.

I'd be happy to share other details with you.

Don
Magic Dragon
CD 30 #239

I should have added that I selected North's 6.3 oz. fabric, added windows for the telltales, and added horizontal lines to indicate sail draft.



don@metznik.com

[Larry DeMers]

Wow..a wide range of opinion here. Let me explain my choice of a 140 Genoa on a roller/furler. On Superior, the day starts out with light winds in the 5-10 range, but by 9 or 10 AM it has developed a bit and may be as high as 10-15. By noon, it will be 15-20 or higher. The opposite process takes place in the evening, wiht the winds dying off by 7pm. We sail most all day long, and also away from the dock for extended periods of time. Doing this, we cannot pick our conditions to sail in all that well, so we use a 140 genoa that gives excellent low wind performance, extending up into the areas where the genoa is too much even reefed.

I DO know the difference between heeling and boat speed..been sailing 35 years, 12 of them on my CD30. How 'bout you? Oh yeah..and we passed 18,000 miles this spring..on the CD30. For light airs, you need a large foresail, regardless of what the guys with the original suit of sails say. In higher winds, you want to concentrate your cneter of effort towards the mast more, and so switching down to main and staysail does this well, and the boat is happier too.

Pulling out the spinnaker and raising it is fun and exciting, yes. Good for downwind and limited reaching with the right setup, yes. As a replacement for low wind sails..it stinks. Far too much work each and every time the wind dies on you. As for running around with your genoa all bunched up all the time, as someone said..well, that does not happen much at all. And when it does, reefing the genoa works well, and I am happy with it.

I can tell you this. Our Cd30 can beat most other 30 fter's out there, except for those darn C&C30's. It is faster than any other full keel boat it's size or within 2 ft. Yours can be too, but you need the HP to do it. An anemic yankee will not do it for this boat, except in higher winds.

As I said in the first post..it depends on your sailing area and your experience. Next, talk with a good sailmaker. Try UK sails, as they made the original sails for Cape Dory under the name Ulmer.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC

demers@sgi.com

[Chris Cram]

Larry could you explain how that foam luff improves the shape of the genoa when it is reefed. I have a roller furled 140 with the foam luff and have wondered how that is supposed to help when all rolled up in a moderate reef.

Chris



cccobx@prodigy.net

[John R.]

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC

Lots of good remarks here and to each his own I guess. I tend more to agree with Andrew most. Larry has made some good points also, but I think more suitable to his sailing conditions on Superior. I like the asymetrical spinnaker in light air and disagree with Larry about it being a lot to deal with. It becomes very easy to use if a sock is utilized. Here in Florida we certainly do not have similar weather conditions to those up north. Generally I've found a 135 jenny to be the headsail of choice but if I were in a different area of the country I would probably bag her and bring out the yankee. Everyone is going to have varying comments on the headsail choice because we all generally sail different waters with different wind conditions. In addition we all sail differently and our point of comfort sailing our boats is going to also vary. I think you should sail the boat with its standard set of sails and get the feel of the boat in your usual conditions.

Then after you determine what you like and don't like and make mental notes on how the boat sails with given wind/sail combinations. Then you should pay a visit to a sailmaker and discuss matters and see what will help you acheive the feel you are after and the best performance of the boat in your sailing conditions.

In addition you need to consider the furling system you expect to use. The extrusion can make a big difference in what you decide on. You should definitely consult a couple of reputable sail lofts on this entire project so you are well informed as to all your options.

[Joe Sankey]

This has been covered before, but is a timely discussion for me. I am still preparing Slow Dance, our "new" CD30 for her first trip in our hands. Just replaced the standing rigging; a few more must dos to go.
Our area, Alabama/FLA Panhandle, is mostly light air. On our last boat, a CD28 we used a roller-furling 155%; replaced the self tending jib altogether. We also had an asymmetrical which we rarely used. My sailmaker insists we need to do the same on this boat, but we are (mostly due to costs) intent on learning the cutter rig with hank ons. We have a yankee, but also a 120% in excellent shape. It also came with an asymmetrical in excellent condition. We'll learn. We first saw the sloop rig w/roller furling and varied sail cloth weights on Dave Stump's brother's 30 on Long Island Sound. They loved it at the time, but now Dave is a serious proponent of the cutter. I can't wait for 1. cooler weather, and 2. finding out how we like doing it the hard way.
Joe Sankey
CD 30 Slow Dance

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC

sankey@gulftel.com

[Larry DeMers]

Hi Chris,

Sure thing. The 140 has quite a full draft, and this gives the lift that the 140 is capable of giving. In higher winds, this is too much sail, so we roll up the genoa a bit. In the luff lining of the sail is a polyurethane foam batten, about 6 in. wide at the sails center, and about 3/8 in. thick, tapering to a point at the head and foot of the genny.
When the sail is rolled up, the foam pad artifically increases the diameter of the furler, more at the center, fading out towards the head and foot. The larger diameter center will take in more sail per revolution of the furlers drum, than will either end, and this then flattens the sails draft as it is rolled in. Experience has taught me that with our 140, we can keep a workable shape until about 80-90%, where it becomes too flat for much drive. Our sail was made by Hood, and they used three weights of cloth in the building of the sail. The weight decreases as you move inwards towards the luff, so the heaviest weight material is that exposed to the highest winds. This arrangement is good since it takes shape in light winds easily, yet will handle high winds.(<30 knts).

Tacking the genoa can be a trick sincce the staysail stay is so close to the forestay, making that opening about a foot wide. We adapted to this challenge with one of three wind speed dependant methods:
a. Tack thru the eye slowly, then increase speed of the tack as the wind grabs the genoa, and walks it thru the slot. Works in >15 knts. usually.
b. Partially roll up the genoa about 1/3 the way as soon as the wind is off the genoa, then tack thru the wind, while letting out the sail you rolled in. This forms a pocket that the wind will fill, pulling the sail through the slot as it does (this is known as Jan's trick).
c. The standard roll it in, then roll it out exercise. It takes us 20 sec. total to do this if enthused enough. Otherwise it will take a minute at a leisurely pace.

Jan's Trick works almost all the time, especially above 10 knts wind speed.

All boats are compromises, and we compromise speed of tacking in light winds perhaps..for the convenience and safety as well as utility of a cutter rigged boat with a large genoa. that said, we came in 5th of 10 boats, in the Around Basswood Race for the Outer Island Yacht Club. Winds never got over 5 knt. in the first 4 hours..this was on PHRF corrected time of course. Most of the other guys were bigger 'n me...;^)

Cheers,

Larry

Larry could you explain how that foam luff improves the shape of the genoa when it is reefed. I have a roller furled 140 with the foam luff and have wondered how that is supposed to help when all rolled up in a moderate reef.

Chris

demers@sgi.com

[John Nuttall]

......being from Southport, NC?

Up here in Oriental, NC it's Bay and River sailing.....and I can see headsail needs being quite different......for many of the reasons already stated....wind driven chop vs swells....different power requirements.

I have a CD31 Cutter, and I am (still) wrestling with the same topic. Even though I worked part time (during my college years) at a sail loft in FL, and consider myself to be reasonably astute in these matters, I always deferr to my LOCAL sailmaker.

One thing not mentioned yet is the need to consider the rest of your sail inventory and your future plans for it. I see many boats with a mish mosh of sails. While certianly critical on a racing bat, a well matched sail inventory really helps a cruiser.

One of the critical functions the headsail provides is to create the "slot" and feed air past the main. It's really critical that the headsail shape is going to be compatable with your mainsail shape. Including when you reef..........

If you plan to keep your 30 awhile you might want to think interms of your entire inventory. Progressivly replacing sails as you go. If some of your sails are new and "right" for your boat, you may want to build you inventory around them.

Mark at Banks Sails in Oriental has made some really beautiful headsails for CDs (Ryan Turner has one, ask him about it). Suggest you contact Mark as a starting point. One of the advantages we have in Oriental is that Andy Denmark owned a Cape Dory dealership there. So there are lots of Cape Dorys around, and the sailmakers like Mark know CDs well.....

G'luck and get out this weekend.....going to be mid 80's and dry Sat & Sun !!!!!

John
s/v Aimless
CD31 #28
Homeport: Oriental, NC



aimless@nc.rr.com

[Tom]

Chris, I've been out sailing and just got back, so am joining in late here. One part of your question not directly addressed is the deck sweeper portion. You get a lot of sail area and drive from the foot of the sail so that's why people opt for a deck sweeper rather than a high cut yankee in spite of the disadvantages such as poor vision. I have a 140 deck sweeper on mine and wouldn't change to anythinig else. I have to use a pennant to raise it enough to clear the pulpit. If you're doing any serious cruising, I wouldn't remove the staysail stay. You'll find you use that club footed staysail a lot. It's the thing that makes the cutter rig the preferred rig of cruising boats -- all those sail choices and combos, and well worth the extra lines and deck clutter etc that sloop sailors complain about. JMHO

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[David Brownlee]

We're facing the same dilemma with our "new" CD31, which came with staysail, 100% yankee (bigger than that shown in some of the published sailplans), and a Hood MPS asymmetrical chute. The MPS is a wonderful thing, moving us on a reach or a run when it looks like there's no wind on the water, and the cutter rig offers welcome flexiblity in a breeze (the boat handles beautifully under double- or single-reefed main and staysail).

However, the "holes" in this array of sails are revealed when (1) trying to sail above a beam reach in anything less than 6-8 knots or so, when the MPS won't set and the yankee+staysail doesn't offer enough power, and (2) going to windward in ca. 13-18 kts, when we begin to be overpowered with the yankee set, and staysail alone isn't enough (and we're too lazy to reef the main!). The options we're considering are

A. Larry's suggested 140% genoa/outer jib, on roller furling. The question here is, can it *really* function when reefed down to 100% and, say 75% for condition #2?

B. Retaining the 100% yankee, but mounting a roller furler so that it can be reduced to ca. 75% for condtion #2. And for condition #1, buying a new drifter/"code zero" to be set flying, perhaps on its own flexible, non-permanent roller furler. (There was an article on code zero sails in the July SAILING, which said that the furler proabbly wasn't needed on boats under 30 feet.) Does anyone have experience with such light headsails, set flying? Do you need a furler?

As always, all advice is most welcome.

Ann and David Brownlee
CD31 #1 Windrush
Havre de Grace, MD



dbrownle@sas.upenn.edu

[Larry DeMers]

Tom,

You said it precisely and accurately. I have a yankee and it has never been hoisted..never in 18,450 miles. In our kind of conditions, the genoa overlaps it's useful range. The yankee is too much of a compromise too. In light winds, it is too small and lacks area at the bottom (although if you are crossing the stream, I would use that yankee over the genoa for certain!), while in high winds, it is struck below 20 knts. We carry the genoa up to about 20 comfortably.. just don't forget to move your genoa car leads forward as the sail is reefed in, or your sail will have a horrible shape and little lift.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~

Chris, I've been out sailing and just got back, so am joining in late here. One part of your question not directly addressed is the deck sweeper portion. You get a lot of sail area and drive from the foot of the sail so that's why people opt for a deck sweeper rather than a high cut yankee in spite of the disadvantages such as poor vision. I have a 140 deck sweeper on mine and wouldn't change to anythinig else. I have to use a pennant to raise it enough to clear the pulpit. If you're doing any serious cruising, I wouldn't remove the staysail stay. You'll find you use that club footed staysail a lot. It's the thing that makes the cutter rig the preferred rig of cruising boats -- all those sail choices and combos, and well worth the extra lines and deck clutter etc that sloop sailors complain about. JMHO

Was wondering what the general concensus was about the design of a new roller furling headsail for a CD30 Cutter....should it be a traditional Yankee cut, modified Yankee cut, deck sweeper, greatest size (e.g. 135%), etc. Thanks.

Chris Schnell
s/v MADNESS III CD30 #235
Southport, NC

demers@sgi.com