After leaving CD 30 on mooring overnite. Returned to find head filled with water and some over flow on sole. Outside discharge was secure as well as intake for head. Small handle alongside pump piston rod doesn't seem to have any resistence when moving it from the "flush" to the "dry" position. After pumping the bowl dry you can see water seeping back in to the bowl slowly. Does the seal on the piston rod need replacing? And, what position if any should the small handle be left in? Any help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Jack Kelley
jjkel@massed.net
Marine "head"
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Groco "head"
Captain Kelley,
I believe you have a Groco HF or HE head aboard. If so, a couple of things. First, NEVER leave the through hull open after using the head. The head is below the water line, and it will sink your boat! Pay particular attention if you have guests aboard and they are unfamiliar with head operation. The ONLY way to stop that is to install a vented loop in the hose from the thru hull to the pump, and that would look terrible in the confines of the CD-30 head. Second, leave the little lever in "Dry Bowl" when not in use(and thru hull CLOSED). Third, there isn't much resistance to the select lever, even when new, I know, the HF on Hanalei is 1 yr and 3 months old. Fourth, No, the piston seal does not need replacing, what you are experiencing is normal.
Finally, search the site on "Groco". You will see an item I wrote about 3 weeks ago about trouble with a Groco head "hydro-locking". If you have this problem, that will help you. This problem is easily fixed, but very difficult to diagnose.
Hope this helps....Fair Winds(Pun intended!)...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
I believe you have a Groco HF or HE head aboard. If so, a couple of things. First, NEVER leave the through hull open after using the head. The head is below the water line, and it will sink your boat! Pay particular attention if you have guests aboard and they are unfamiliar with head operation. The ONLY way to stop that is to install a vented loop in the hose from the thru hull to the pump, and that would look terrible in the confines of the CD-30 head. Second, leave the little lever in "Dry Bowl" when not in use(and thru hull CLOSED). Third, there isn't much resistance to the select lever, even when new, I know, the HF on Hanalei is 1 yr and 3 months old. Fourth, No, the piston seal does not need replacing, what you are experiencing is normal.
Finally, search the site on "Groco". You will see an item I wrote about 3 weeks ago about trouble with a Groco head "hydro-locking". If you have this problem, that will help you. This problem is easily fixed, but very difficult to diagnose.
Hope this helps....Fair Winds(Pun intended!)...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Larry DeMers
Re: Marine "head"
Sounds to me like the holding tank liquid is backing up into the heads bowl due to gravity. Normally, the Groco's Joker Valve will stop this flow, but they weaken with time, and it may need replacement..easy to do while the head is in place by the way.
I would suggest installing a new joker valve. You probably have one in your rebuild kit..or should. Get two.
These valves install easily, by removing the two nuts holding the effluent hose bib from the pump body. Pull off the valve and replace it, observing the orientation it requires (I believe it was vertical).
Dave is right that the wet-dry valve has little resistance to it's movement. However, this could mean that the rubber valve it is attached to is torn off..easy to do believe me. You may be time ahead by installing a rebuild kit in the head, and keeping the good parts left over.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
I would suggest installing a new joker valve. You probably have one in your rebuild kit..or should. Get two.
These valves install easily, by removing the two nuts holding the effluent hose bib from the pump body. Pull off the valve and replace it, observing the orientation it requires (I believe it was vertical).
Dave is right that the wet-dry valve has little resistance to it's movement. However, this could mean that the rubber valve it is attached to is torn off..easy to do believe me. You may be time ahead by installing a rebuild kit in the head, and keeping the good parts left over.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Jack Kelley wrote: After leaving CD 30 on mooring overnite. Returned to find head filled with water and some over flow on sole. Outside discharge was secure as well as intake for head. Small handle alongside pump piston rod doesn't seem to have any resistence when moving it from the "flush" to the "dry" position. After pumping the bowl dry you can see water seeping back in to the bowl slowly. Does the seal on the piston rod need replacing? And, what position if any should the small handle be left in? Any help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Jack Kelley
demers@sgi.com
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Joe Mac Phee
Re: Marine "head"
Jack,
If your Cape Dory is plumbed like my (1977) 30 foot ketch, when the head is pumped overboard (when legal to do so), the head is connected to a vented loop that goes as high as the underside of the deck. When connected to the holding tank, the head goes to the high side of the tank on the starboard side. In both cases, a long length of hose is involved. Since the pump only pumps liquid and not air, the hoses will be filled with liquid when you finish pumping (a good reason to give a few extra pumps of clear water through the hoses). The only thing that stands between you and the liquid is the joker valve. It sounds like the joker is leaking. When I replaced the Wilcox Crittendon head on Iolanthe, I found that the rebuild kit costs $60.00 and a new head, on sale, costs $99.00.
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30/K
jvmacphee@aol.com
If your Cape Dory is plumbed like my (1977) 30 foot ketch, when the head is pumped overboard (when legal to do so), the head is connected to a vented loop that goes as high as the underside of the deck. When connected to the holding tank, the head goes to the high side of the tank on the starboard side. In both cases, a long length of hose is involved. Since the pump only pumps liquid and not air, the hoses will be filled with liquid when you finish pumping (a good reason to give a few extra pumps of clear water through the hoses). The only thing that stands between you and the liquid is the joker valve. It sounds like the joker is leaking. When I replaced the Wilcox Crittendon head on Iolanthe, I found that the rebuild kit costs $60.00 and a new head, on sale, costs $99.00.
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30/K
jvmacphee@aol.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: This is NOT a joker valve problem....
Joe & Larry,
Respectfully Sirs, but this does not sound like a joker valve problem. Most holding tanks are below the head, the main discharge hose to the holding should NOT have any liquid in it when you are finished flushing. The joker valve only provides a little back flow resistance when you are actually flushing/pumping the bowl. It is NOT a seal, look at it, when in the elbow fitting, it will be slightly cracked open.
Jacks problem to me sounds like it is operational in nature, NEVER leave the thru hull open and always leave the flush/dry bowl lever in "dry bowl" position. I believe your problem will go away...pun intended...
Dave Stump
Respectfully Sirs, but this does not sound like a joker valve problem. Most holding tanks are below the head, the main discharge hose to the holding should NOT have any liquid in it when you are finished flushing. The joker valve only provides a little back flow resistance when you are actually flushing/pumping the bowl. It is NOT a seal, look at it, when in the elbow fitting, it will be slightly cracked open.
Jacks problem to me sounds like it is operational in nature, NEVER leave the thru hull open and always leave the flush/dry bowl lever in "dry bowl" position. I believe your problem will go away...pun intended...
Dave Stump
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Lou Ostendorff
Groco Head Story
Hello Jack and others;
My Groco HF head stopped working on Karma several months ago, so I took the pump apart and rebuilt it with a kit. In taking the pump off, I looked at the 'joker valve' and it seemed to be smiling at me!
(imagine that)...anyway, it was turned inside out, like it had been pressurized from the line going to the holding tank. I really didn't understand why until later. I put the rebuilt pump back on, and it seemed to work OK once or twice, then stopped working again, with effluent backing up in the bowl...soooooooo, I got frustrated, took the rebuilt pump off, looked at the joker valve, and it was smiling again, inside out! Then I really got mad, and commenced to ripping out the sanitation hose going to the holding tank...in doing so, I found two kinks in the line, where some 'clown' bent the line in two tight curves and tie-rapped it to the fiberglass liner. (So the 'joker' and the 'clown' were working together on this one) Anyway, I replaced the sanitation hose with a new piece (no kinks) and reassembled the whole mess, and have been 'sitting in bliss' ever since...evidently the head pump can generate quite a bit of pressure, and it built up against the joker valve and rendered it inoperative, and able to allow backflow of the effluent. Moral to the story? You may have a clog...
Lou Ostendorff
s/v Karma, CD25D
'82, #63
louosten@ipass.net
My Groco HF head stopped working on Karma several months ago, so I took the pump apart and rebuilt it with a kit. In taking the pump off, I looked at the 'joker valve' and it seemed to be smiling at me!
(imagine that)...anyway, it was turned inside out, like it had been pressurized from the line going to the holding tank. I really didn't understand why until later. I put the rebuilt pump back on, and it seemed to work OK once or twice, then stopped working again, with effluent backing up in the bowl...soooooooo, I got frustrated, took the rebuilt pump off, looked at the joker valve, and it was smiling again, inside out! Then I really got mad, and commenced to ripping out the sanitation hose going to the holding tank...in doing so, I found two kinks in the line, where some 'clown' bent the line in two tight curves and tie-rapped it to the fiberglass liner. (So the 'joker' and the 'clown' were working together on this one) Anyway, I replaced the sanitation hose with a new piece (no kinks) and reassembled the whole mess, and have been 'sitting in bliss' ever since...evidently the head pump can generate quite a bit of pressure, and it built up against the joker valve and rendered it inoperative, and able to allow backflow of the effluent. Moral to the story? You may have a clog...
Lou Ostendorff
s/v Karma, CD25D
'82, #63
louosten@ipass.net
-
Ken Coit
Re: This is NOT a joker valve problem....
Don Casey might not agree. Check out his bit on Marine Toilet Maintenance at the link below.
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
Ken
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Joe & Larry,
Respectfully Sirs, but this does not sound like a joker valve problem. Most holding tanks are below the head, the main discharge hose to the holding should NOT have any liquid in it when you are finished flushing. The joker valve only provides a little back flow resistance when you are actually flushing/pumping the bowl. It is NOT a seal, look at it, when in the elbow fitting, it will be slightly cracked open.
Jacks problem to me sounds like it is operational in nature, NEVER leave the thru hull open and always leave the flush/dry bowl lever in "dry bowl" position. I believe your problem will go away...pun intended...
Dave Stump
parfait@nc.rr.com
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Joe Mac Phee
It could be a joker valve problem
Dave,
It certainly is good advice to NEVER leave the thru hull open and to leave the flush/dry lever in the "drybowl" position. Jack describes his problem to exist in spite of using this protocol. I defer to your greater experience stating that most boats have the holding tank below the head. However, my Cape Dory 30 has the head BELOW the holding tank and it is possible that Jacks boat may have the same configuration, hence the suggestion that the joker is a potential source of the problem. Certainly the overboard discharge has the head below the vented loop. On my boat, both the discharge to overboard vented loop and the discharge to the holding tank are ALWAYS filled with liquid. I wish it were not so! In any case, it is only a suggestion based on limited information. If Jack would like to contact me by e-mail, I will try to learn more about the situation. This spring, I replaced the entire head and holding tank system on Iolanthe and now have a system more complicated than a nuclear reactor.
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30/K
It certainly is good advice to NEVER leave the thru hull open and to leave the flush/dry lever in the "drybowl" position. Jack describes his problem to exist in spite of using this protocol. I defer to your greater experience stating that most boats have the holding tank below the head. However, my Cape Dory 30 has the head BELOW the holding tank and it is possible that Jacks boat may have the same configuration, hence the suggestion that the joker is a potential source of the problem. Certainly the overboard discharge has the head below the vented loop. On my boat, both the discharge to overboard vented loop and the discharge to the holding tank are ALWAYS filled with liquid. I wish it were not so! In any case, it is only a suggestion based on limited information. If Jack would like to contact me by e-mail, I will try to learn more about the situation. This spring, I replaced the entire head and holding tank system on Iolanthe and now have a system more complicated than a nuclear reactor.
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30/K
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Larry DeMers
Re: This is NOT a joker valve problem....
Dave,
Sorry, you are incorrect here. On DeLaMer, a 1983 CD30c, the holding tank is slightly above the head, and when the tank is partially filled with fluid/solids, the top level is certainly above the head by several inches. Additionally, the joker valves only job is to prevent backflow into the bowl..what else is there in the pump to prevent backflow besides this valve? If the valve is old, worn or defective, the jaws will be separated and allow fluid through. I have rebuilt my Groco HF head twice in 11 years, and also cured a backflow problem by simply replacing the joker valve, so I know that this works.
Regards,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~
demers@sgi.com
Sorry, you are incorrect here. On DeLaMer, a 1983 CD30c, the holding tank is slightly above the head, and when the tank is partially filled with fluid/solids, the top level is certainly above the head by several inches. Additionally, the joker valves only job is to prevent backflow into the bowl..what else is there in the pump to prevent backflow besides this valve? If the valve is old, worn or defective, the jaws will be separated and allow fluid through. I have rebuilt my Groco HF head twice in 11 years, and also cured a backflow problem by simply replacing the joker valve, so I know that this works.
Regards,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Joe & Larry,
Respectfully Sirs, but this does not sound like a joker valve problem. Most holding tanks are below the head, the main discharge hose to the holding should NOT have any liquid in it when you are finished flushing. The joker valve only provides a little back flow resistance when you are actually flushing/pumping the bowl. It is NOT a seal, look at it, when in the elbow fitting, it will be slightly cracked open.
Jacks problem to me sounds like it is operational in nature, NEVER leave the thru hull open and always leave the flush/dry bowl lever in "dry bowl" position. I believe your problem will go away...pun intended...
Dave Stump
demers@sgi.com
-
Dennis Truett
Re: This is NOT a joker valve problem....
Doesn't the discharge from the bowl go through a hose connected to the TOP of the holding tank? (is so on a cd26) so unless the tank is FULL, why would the height of the tank in relation to the bowl have anything to do with backlflow from the tank into the bowl?
Dennis
Dennis
Ken Coit wrote: Don Casey might not agree. Check out his bit on Marine Toilet Maintenance at the link below.
Ken
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Joe & Larry,
Respectfully Sirs, but this does not sound like a joker valve problem. Most holding tanks are below the head, the main discharge hose to the holding should NOT have any liquid in it when you are finished flushing. The joker valve only provides a little back flow resistance when you are actually flushing/pumping the bowl. It is NOT a seal, look at it, when in the elbow fitting, it will be slightly cracked open.
Jacks problem to me sounds like it is operational in nature, NEVER leave the thru hull open and always leave the flush/dry bowl lever in "dry bowl" position. I believe your problem will go away...pun intended...
Dave Stump
-
Chris Scheck
Re: Groco "head"
Please ... let me second everyone who has warned about closing the thru-hull for any head that is below the waterline! After 5 years of carefully closing the valve before leaving our CD33, we hired some people to do our teak while RAGTIME was on the mooring. A few days later, our yacht club called to advise that the boat was riding low in the water. Apparently, one of the workers had used the head and forgotten to close the valve. We had seawater 3" deep in the cabin. To make matters worse, one of the "rescue" outfits showed up and offered to pump out the boat. My father reluctantly agreed, fearing a bill of $500 or so for 20 minutes work. Imagine his surprise when they sent our insurance company a $5000 salvage claim! They claimed RAGTIME was in peril of going to the bottom, despite the fact we were already aboard -- at the mooring!
Not wanting to make the same mistake twice, here's our strategy for the dreaded thru-hull ...
1) Wrap thru-hull handle with red tape. Makes it easier to check the position of the handle from outside the head.
2) Put a small sign that says "Please ... leave red handle DOWN" in the head for guests.
3) Before leaving the boat, last person to leave the cabin checks the handle and calls out "Red handle down!" Other crew respond "Aye aye, red handle down sir!" (We also do this with the battery switch and the propane -- it saves a lot of worry once we get home.)
Like they say, you can't be too careful. If we only knew what the next disaster will be!
cscheck@aol.com
Not wanting to make the same mistake twice, here's our strategy for the dreaded thru-hull ...
1) Wrap thru-hull handle with red tape. Makes it easier to check the position of the handle from outside the head.
2) Put a small sign that says "Please ... leave red handle DOWN" in the head for guests.
3) Before leaving the boat, last person to leave the cabin checks the handle and calls out "Red handle down!" Other crew respond "Aye aye, red handle down sir!" (We also do this with the battery switch and the propane -- it saves a lot of worry once we get home.)
Like they say, you can't be too careful. If we only knew what the next disaster will be!
cscheck@aol.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: RED handle...a good thing..per Martha Stewart..
Chris,
That's a great idea! Said handle will shortly be painted RED on Hanalei. Thanks...
Dave Stump
That's a great idea! Said handle will shortly be painted RED on Hanalei. Thanks...
Dave Stump
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Larry DeMers
Re: This is NOT a joker valve problem....
True enough, the tank height ought not make any difference now that you mention it..good point. What does come back into the bowl then must be material that is in the hose, between the tank and the head. On our boat, that hose is about 7 ft. long I guess, so it has the ability to hold at least a bowl full of water.
But your observation about the entry point on the holding tank is correct, and that would remove the 'head' of that tank from the equation. But it also makes where the tank is mounted..ie; above or below the head level, a moot point. Regardless of where the tank is mounted, the tank entry fitting will be above the head itself, giving the hose about a foot of head over the bowl..or more. sloosh....
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
But your observation about the entry point on the holding tank is correct, and that would remove the 'head' of that tank from the equation. But it also makes where the tank is mounted..ie; above or below the head level, a moot point. Regardless of where the tank is mounted, the tank entry fitting will be above the head itself, giving the hose about a foot of head over the bowl..or more. sloosh....
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Dennis Truett wrote: Doesn't the discharge from the bowl go through a hose connected to the TOP of the holding tank? (is so on a cd26) so unless the tank is FULL, why would the height of the tank in relation to the bowl have anything to do with backlflow from the tank into the bowl?
DennisKen Coit wrote: Don Casey might not agree. Check out his bit on Marine Toilet Maintenance at the link below.
Ken
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Joe & Larry,
Respectfully Sirs, but this does not sound like a joker valve problem. Most holding tanks are below the head, the main discharge hose to the holding should NOT have any liquid in it when you are finished flushing. The joker valve only provides a little back flow resistance when you are actually flushing/pumping the bowl. It is NOT a seal, look at it, when in the elbow fitting, it will be slightly cracked open.
Jacks problem to me sounds like it is operational in nature, NEVER leave the thru hull open and always leave the flush/dry bowl lever in "dry bowl" position. I believe your problem will go away...pun intended...
Dave Stump
demers@sgi.com
-
Ken Coit
Re: RED handle...a good thing..per Martha Stewart..
I like it too. Maybe reflective red tape would be even more obvioius? Maybe all the seacocks, save those for the cockpit drains need this treatment? We could use white reflective tape for those, so we can find them on those dark and stormy nights when we need to open them.
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
Ken
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Chris,
That's a great idea! Said handle will shortly be painted RED on Hanalei. Thanks...
Dave Stump
parfait@nc.rr.com
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Ken Coit
Re: This is NOT a joker valve problem....
On Parfait, I think the vent loop is between the head and the diverter (Y) valve which selects either the seacock or the holding tank. So, the backflow we see on Parfait is simply the uphill side of the vented loop. It doesn't leak fast or much, but ......
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
Ken
Dennis Truett wrote: Doesn't the discharge from the bowl go through a hose connected to the TOP of the holding tank? (is so on a cd26) so unless the tank is FULL, why would the height of the tank in relation to the bowl have anything to do with backlflow from the tank into the bowl?
DennisKen Coit wrote: Don Casey might not agree. Check out his bit on Marine Toilet Maintenance at the link below.
Ken
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Joe & Larry,
Respectfully Sirs, but this does not sound like a joker valve problem. Most holding tanks are below the head, the main discharge hose to the holding should NOT have any liquid in it when you are finished flushing. The joker valve only provides a little back flow resistance when you are actually flushing/pumping the bowl. It is NOT a seal, look at it, when in the elbow fitting, it will be slightly cracked open.
Jacks problem to me sounds like it is operational in nature, NEVER leave the thru hull open and always leave the flush/dry bowl lever in "dry bowl" position. I believe your problem will go away...pun intended...
Dave Stump
parfait@nc.rr.com