I recently purchased a wonderful 1977 Cape Dory 27 with an underpowered Yanmar 8 hp diesel and 2 blade propeller. I am completely unable to control the boat in reverse and wonder if anyone has suggestions on how to operate this Cape Dory so that I can get in and out of a slip to pick up passengers. I keep the boat on a mooring and can either motor forward or sail off the mooring but trying to maneuver to a pick up point has so far been impossible for me.
Thanks
Lew Rubin
lewrubin@n2.com
Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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marv
Re: Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
What did you own before?Lew Rubin wrote: I recently purchased a wonderful 1977 Cape Dory 27 with an underpowered Yanmar 8 hp diesel and 2 blade propeller. I am completely unable to control the boat in reverse and wonder if anyone has suggestions on how to operate this Cape Dory so that I can get in and out of a slip to pick up passengers. I keep the boat on a mooring and can either motor forward or sail off the mooring but trying to maneuver to a pick up point has so far been impossible for me.
Thanks
Lew Rubin
I also own a cd27 and had to learn that she is not that responsive in reverse, I have her in a slip on Hartwell sc
in any event she walks to the right ( I think) in reverse and I just make sure the crew fends off as well depart.
I dont know if anyone has repowered for that purpose
Keep on mind a new eng would be VERY expensive just for the luxury on reverse.
I owned small boats before .........
mibrinn@aol.com
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Warren Kaplan
Re: Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
Lew,Lew Rubin wrote: I recently purchased a wonderful 1977 Cape Dory 27 with an underpowered Yanmar 8 hp diesel and 2 blade propeller. I am completely unable to control the boat in reverse and wonder if anyone has suggestions on how to operate this Cape Dory so that I can get in and out of a slip to pick up passengers. I keep the boat on a mooring and can either motor forward or sail off the mooring but trying to maneuver to a pick up point has so far been impossible for me.
Thanks
Lew Rubin
I have a 1980 CD27, also with a Yanmar 8. I have a YSM8 although I suspect you have the YSB model. Firstly, realize the reason you have problems controlling where your boat will go in reverse has nothing to do with the engine. Full keel boats with the prop located where it is on Cape Dorys are notorious for being, shall we say, unpredictable when motoring astern. I just takes alot of practice and preparation. I have to reverse out of my slip in a marina that doesn't have much maneuvering area and no room for mistakes. I've taken to using a slip line when reversing out, which gives me absolute control over which way the my stern will swing. That slip line has made a BIG difference and has taken most of the mental stress out of leaving my slip.
I have a 3 bladed prop on my CD27. That also makes a difference. If you search the archives on this board there have been many discussions on 3 bladed vs. 2 bladed props. Also questions about installing Maxprops or Autoprops. Stuff about the pitch of the prop also. The Yanmar 8 may be somewhat underpowered in heavy current thats against you but it gets the job done in most other conditions and is unbelievably reliable. I think if you get a 3 bladed prop you'll notice the difference right away.
Hope this helps a little. Welcome to the rigors of going in reverse on a full keel boat. You've got LOTS of company.
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166
Setsail728@aol.com
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Lew Rubin
Re: Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
Hi Warren:Warren Kaplan wrote:Lew,Lew Rubin wrote: I recently purchased a wonderful 1977 Cape Dory 27 with an underpowered Yanmar 8 hp diesel and 2 blade propeller. I am completely unable to control the boat in reverse and wonder if anyone has suggestions on how to operate this Cape Dory so that I can get in and out of a slip to pick up passengers. I keep the boat on a mooring and can either motor forward or sail off the mooring but trying to maneuver to a pick up point has so far been impossible for me.
Thanks
Lew Rubin
I have a 1980 CD27, also with a Yanmar 8. I have a YSM8 although I suspect you have the YSB model. Firstly, realize the reason you have problems controlling where your boat will go in reverse has nothing to do with the engine. Full keel boats with the prop located where it is on Cape Dorys are notorious for being, shall we say, unpredictable when motoring astern. I just takes alot of practice and preparation. I have to reverse out of my slip in a marina that doesn't have much maneuvering area and no room for mistakes. I've taken to using a slip line when reversing out, which gives me absolute control over which way the my stern will swing. That slip line has made a BIG difference and has taken most of the mental stress out of leaving my slip.
I have a 3 bladed prop on my CD27. That also makes a difference. If you search the archives on this board there have been many discussions on 3 bladed vs. 2 bladed props. Also questions about installing Maxprops or Autoprops. Stuff about the pitch of the prop also. The Yanmar 8 may be somewhat underpowered in heavy current thats against you but it gets the job done in most other conditions and is unbelievably reliable. I think if you get a 3 bladed prop you'll notice the difference right away.
Hope this helps a little. Welcome to the rigors of going in reverse on a full keel boat. You've got LOTS of company.
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166
Thanks for the information-I'm realizing that a learning curve for the cd 27 exists, just as with everything else-I will follow your suggestion of a 3 bladed prop-I think the slight added resistance under sail will more than be offset by any gain in reverse. Thanks again.
Lew
lewrubin@n2.com
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Lew Rubin
Re: Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
Hi Marv:marv wrote:What did you own before?Lew Rubin wrote: I recently purchased a wonderful 1977 Cape Dory 27 with an underpowered Yanmar 8 hp diesel and 2 blade propeller. I am completely unable to control the boat in reverse and wonder if anyone has suggestions on how to operate this Cape Dory so that I can get in and out of a slip to pick up passengers. I keep the boat on a mooring and can either motor forward or sail off the mooring but trying to maneuver to a pick up point has so far been impossible for me.
Thanks
Lew Rubin
I also own a cd27 and had to learn that she is not that responsive in reverse, I have her in a slip on Hartwell sc
in any event she walks to the right ( I think) in reverse and I just make sure the crew fends off as well depart.
I dont know if anyone has repowered for that purpose
Keep on mind a new eng would be VERY expensive just for the luxury on reverse.
I owned small boats before .........
Thanks for your help-I previously had a 22' fin keel boat with outboard in a well forward of the rudder, which gave me great control-I was a quite surprised at how little control I now have but realize that the combination of low power and full keel makes a difference-I'm certain I'll get there, it'll just take a bit of patience on my wife's part.
Lew
lewrubin@n2.com
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Richard G
Re: Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
Lew,
I have an upwind slip and my solution is to walk the boat back in the slip, push the bow accross the wind in the direction I need to go, then jump on board walk back to the tiller and either sail away or motor away. I think that it is a good idea to learn line handling techniques though. My efforts to motor in reverse have been awful. It is a characteristic of full keel boats and not the power of the engine that is the problem.
aldajon@aol.com
I have an upwind slip and my solution is to walk the boat back in the slip, push the bow accross the wind in the direction I need to go, then jump on board walk back to the tiller and either sail away or motor away. I think that it is a good idea to learn line handling techniques though. My efforts to motor in reverse have been awful. It is a characteristic of full keel boats and not the power of the engine that is the problem.
aldajon@aol.com
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yves feder W1UX
Re: Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
Hi Lew,
My EXACT problem when we acquired our CD27 in the fall of '99. After two years probing every solution from repowering with a Yanmar 2GM20F (excellent solution, but $$$$$$$$$$) to very seriously considering a MaxProp (also excellent, but around $2K plus) we finally this spring went to a 3 blade wheel. Computations done by Hale Propellers in Old Saybrook, CT (Randy Hale invented the machine now used worldwide for actually measuring and calculating blade shape, size, pitch, thrust, etc. for marine propellers) You will see postings down East re. lobster boat races where the winners brag they are using "Hale Propellers"
Discussed at length with him and was assured the 8HP could handle a proper 3 blade. Has to be no more than 12" otherwise you need to enlarge the aperture.
His props are of course made by Federal, and finished by him.
Anyway the resultant prop was installed this spring, together with a PSS shaft seal and a new shaft.
We now have real bite in reverse - which we never had!!! And powering into 20-25 knots of headwind in 1' seas (typical outer harbor conditions in Stonington) we can make almost 3 knots. Before we were lucky to make 1 kt under those conditions.
Note: I was not looking for an increase in "top" speed. WL already sets that. I just wanted more thrust under adverse conditions and some real ability in reverse!
Randy predicted about a 30% increase in thrust without overloading the engine; she will run at high RPM without overheating.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes whatever you decide! The CD27 is a sweet sailor and of course with a little help from the main she's a nifty little motorsailor of sorts too
Yves F.
Ship's Clark & Chief Wiper, Machinery spaces
CD27 #4 (1977) "Alphee"
y.a.feder@tinyradio.com
My EXACT problem when we acquired our CD27 in the fall of '99. After two years probing every solution from repowering with a Yanmar 2GM20F (excellent solution, but $$$$$$$$$$) to very seriously considering a MaxProp (also excellent, but around $2K plus) we finally this spring went to a 3 blade wheel. Computations done by Hale Propellers in Old Saybrook, CT (Randy Hale invented the machine now used worldwide for actually measuring and calculating blade shape, size, pitch, thrust, etc. for marine propellers) You will see postings down East re. lobster boat races where the winners brag they are using "Hale Propellers"
Discussed at length with him and was assured the 8HP could handle a proper 3 blade. Has to be no more than 12" otherwise you need to enlarge the aperture.His props are of course made by Federal, and finished by him.
Anyway the resultant prop was installed this spring, together with a PSS shaft seal and a new shaft.
We now have real bite in reverse - which we never had!!! And powering into 20-25 knots of headwind in 1' seas (typical outer harbor conditions in Stonington) we can make almost 3 knots. Before we were lucky to make 1 kt under those conditions.
Note: I was not looking for an increase in "top" speed. WL already sets that. I just wanted more thrust under adverse conditions and some real ability in reverse!
Randy predicted about a 30% increase in thrust without overloading the engine; she will run at high RPM without overheating.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes whatever you decide! The CD27 is a sweet sailor and of course with a little help from the main she's a nifty little motorsailor of sorts too
Yves F.
Ship's Clark & Chief Wiper, Machinery spaces
CD27 #4 (1977) "Alphee"
y.a.feder@tinyradio.com
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Ken Coit
Re: Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
Lew,
I have made a mental composite of what has been published on this board in the past two years or so on backing under power; I have applied it a few times and it seems to work with Parfait. Let me see if I can get it down:
1. Prop walk will cause a boat with a right-hand screw to turn to port in reverse, and vice-versa.
2. Prop walk can be minimized by using low power and shifting to neutral once the boat has way on.
3. With way on, the rudder can be used to help keep the stern to starboard.
4. Beam winds will tend to blow the bow off which can be an advantage or an additional complication.
5. Further control of the stern while backing is possible by shifting to forward, kicking the rudder to port (as if trying to steer to port if you were going forward) and applying a short burst of power to kick the stern around. This may lead to stopping the boat dead in the water or even moving forward, but that is not much of a problem compared with backing into the wrong place. Shift into reverse and regain sternway, shift to neutral, steer with the rudder and wait until you need to apply power again.
I have applied all this in tight quarters under adverse winds with very expensive sportfishers all around and come out a winner. One can look very busy while you get the boat headed in the right direction. I don't think a long narrow dock lined with expensive yachts is the place to practice, but necessity is the mother of invention. I do know people who have spent as much as a day backing around their marina to get the touch; I understand it is gratifying to have it and I look forward to that day.
Using warps is also an option and may be necessary sometimes, but so is backing in a straight line - sometimes. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Every trip gives us another opportunity or more.
Keep on Sailing!
Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC
parfait@nc.rr.com
I have made a mental composite of what has been published on this board in the past two years or so on backing under power; I have applied it a few times and it seems to work with Parfait. Let me see if I can get it down:
1. Prop walk will cause a boat with a right-hand screw to turn to port in reverse, and vice-versa.
2. Prop walk can be minimized by using low power and shifting to neutral once the boat has way on.
3. With way on, the rudder can be used to help keep the stern to starboard.
4. Beam winds will tend to blow the bow off which can be an advantage or an additional complication.
5. Further control of the stern while backing is possible by shifting to forward, kicking the rudder to port (as if trying to steer to port if you were going forward) and applying a short burst of power to kick the stern around. This may lead to stopping the boat dead in the water or even moving forward, but that is not much of a problem compared with backing into the wrong place. Shift into reverse and regain sternway, shift to neutral, steer with the rudder and wait until you need to apply power again.
I have applied all this in tight quarters under adverse winds with very expensive sportfishers all around and come out a winner. One can look very busy while you get the boat headed in the right direction. I don't think a long narrow dock lined with expensive yachts is the place to practice, but necessity is the mother of invention. I do know people who have spent as much as a day backing around their marina to get the touch; I understand it is gratifying to have it and I look forward to that day.
Using warps is also an option and may be necessary sometimes, but so is backing in a straight line - sometimes. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Every trip gives us another opportunity or more.
Keep on Sailing!
Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Lew Rubin wrote: I recently purchased a wonderful 1977 Cape Dory 27 with an underpowered Yanmar 8 hp diesel and 2 blade propeller. I am completely unable to control the boat in reverse and wonder if anyone has suggestions on how to operate this Cape Dory so that I can get in and out of a slip to pick up passengers. I keep the boat on a mooring and can either motor forward or sail off the mooring but trying to maneuver to a pick up point has so far been impossible for me.
Thanks
Lew Rubin
parfait@nc.rr.com
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Ann and David Brownlee
Re: Backing and the Yanmar 8 hp diesel/Cape Dory 27
The YSM8 is a simple, reliable motor, and we found that it was enough to get us through a lot on our CD27, even with the 2-bladed prop.
As for backing, you have to acknowledge the inherent limitations of the design. We always enter the slip bow-first. Backing *out* is much easier than backing *in*. To exit, we normally give the boat just enough throttle to get her moving in reverse, then, as the bow passes the pilings at the outer end of the slip, give a push to get her turning in the right direction. If you start turning the wrong way, in anything but calm conditions, it's usually easier to make a complete turn in the wrong direction than to shift the direction of the turn. Alternating forward and reverse, while doing all the "steering" in forward, will keep the turning radius tight. The boat can be turned in a space only a few feet larger than her LOA.
(Before spade rudders, we don't remember seeing sailboat transoms from the dock.)
Ann and David Brownlee
CD31 #1 Windrush
abrownle@sas.upenn.edu
As for backing, you have to acknowledge the inherent limitations of the design. We always enter the slip bow-first. Backing *out* is much easier than backing *in*. To exit, we normally give the boat just enough throttle to get her moving in reverse, then, as the bow passes the pilings at the outer end of the slip, give a push to get her turning in the right direction. If you start turning the wrong way, in anything but calm conditions, it's usually easier to make a complete turn in the wrong direction than to shift the direction of the turn. Alternating forward and reverse, while doing all the "steering" in forward, will keep the turning radius tight. The boat can be turned in a space only a few feet larger than her LOA.
(Before spade rudders, we don't remember seeing sailboat transoms from the dock.)
Ann and David Brownlee
CD31 #1 Windrush
abrownle@sas.upenn.edu