Today I went out of the Kennebunk River, Maine in my CD25 when the winds were supposed to be 10-15 out of the north and 1-3 foot seas. Well the wind was 15-20, lots of white caps and 3plus feet choppy water. I put up the main only and let it all the way out. The ride was too bumpy for me. I felt very inept. After 15 minutes decided to come about but the boat wouldn't turn through the wind with the rudder all the way over. I certaintly didn't want to jibe in those winds so I decided to take the main down. I had to pull it down and then pull in the boom. I motored back to the dock. What did I do wrong? Any suggestions would be very helpful. I didn't reef because my boom is not set up for that.
Thanks
alewifehouse@mainecoast.net
Heavy winds and seas-HELP
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Bob Bundy
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
I have had the same thing happen on a CD27 before. I was in winds probably greater than you mentioned and ended up jibing her over with one of the best jibes, that I have ever done. The wave motion was what seemed to be keeping the bow from coming around. Every time I would round it about, the waves would push the bow off. Since then, I have experimented trying to duplicate the problem but not been able to do it again. I have put reef points in the main but rather than using a shortened main, I have sailed downwind with only the jib set. The boat is in much better balance and will handle those waves to stern without too much yawing. I also have less accidental jibing to worry about. Go out and find a place to do some practicing and see what you can figure out for your boat as they all have their personalities.
You have a wonderful state. Just returned from hiking up at Katahdin and Kayaking some in Acadia.
Bob
BundyR@aol.com
You have a wonderful state. Just returned from hiking up at Katahdin and Kayaking some in Acadia.
Bob
BundyR@aol.com
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marv
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
you can learn more about sailing in hvy air than in any other conditon.Bob Bundy wrote:
I have had the same thing happen on a CD27 before. I was in winds probably greater than you mentioned and ended up jibing her over with one of the best jibes, that I have ever done. The wave motion was what seemed to be keeping the bow from coming around. Every time I would round it about, the waves would push the bow off. Since then, I have experimented trying to duplicate the problem but not been able to do it again. I have put reef points in the main but rather than using a shortened main, I have sailed downwind with only the jib set. The boat is in much better balance and will handle those waves to stern without too much yawing. I also have less accidental jibing to worry about. Go out and find a place to do some practicing and see what you can figure out for your boat as they all have their personalities.
You have a wonderful state. Just returned from hiking up at Katahdin and Kayaking some in Acadia.
Bob
I would have motored and reduced sail by reefing? did you also furl the genoa? if not it would have been hard to balance the boat as the genny would force the boat to fall off instead of rounding up.
shorten sail so that you have control and then make sure you have good steerage and momentum before you try to tack..the boat will not tack unless ther is enough momentum to do so
try gong out again in similar weather.Also pick the right wave to tack on ..there usually is a set of waves that are calmer wityh respect to others,...
mibrinn@aol.com
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Warren Kaplan
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
First of all, let me assure you that the CD25 can handle those conditions pretty easily. With some practice, you'll have no trouble with conditions that often are the most fun to sail in.
I sail a CD27 and have been out often in those conditions. When the wind starts to go up, sail area starts to come down. You also want to flatten the mainsail by tightening the cunningham and tightening the outhaul. Head up into the wind and tie in your first reef. That should make the boat sail on a more even keel and should reduce weather helm. If its still uncomfortable, tie in a second reef if you have one. If you have a furling headsail, you may want to partially furl that. It depends on the boat's balance. You can also sail under just a reefed main, or a full or partially furled headsail. Again, practice, even in winds of less strength, will tell you what combination of sail area and reefing in your 2 sails works to balance your boat.
As for tacking in any wind, you need power to provide the momentum to drive the bow of the boat thru the eye of the wind since as you tack the sails loose their power just when you need it. If your forward speed is not great when you want to tack, you may want to bear off the wind a little to get your speed and momentum up. Once you gain speed, put the helm hard over and the bow should start to come around sharply. This is important.Keep the jib trimmed and drawing as you tack and DON'T release it until its starts to luff. As long as its drawing it will provide momentum to power you thru the wind and the waves. Once the jib starts to luff, bring it around to the other tack. The key is momentum and you can only get that with speed and by keeping your sails working thru the tack for the longest possible time. Its not foolproof, but it usually does the trick in most conditions.
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166
Setsail728@aol.com
I sail a CD27 and have been out often in those conditions. When the wind starts to go up, sail area starts to come down. You also want to flatten the mainsail by tightening the cunningham and tightening the outhaul. Head up into the wind and tie in your first reef. That should make the boat sail on a more even keel and should reduce weather helm. If its still uncomfortable, tie in a second reef if you have one. If you have a furling headsail, you may want to partially furl that. It depends on the boat's balance. You can also sail under just a reefed main, or a full or partially furled headsail. Again, practice, even in winds of less strength, will tell you what combination of sail area and reefing in your 2 sails works to balance your boat.
As for tacking in any wind, you need power to provide the momentum to drive the bow of the boat thru the eye of the wind since as you tack the sails loose their power just when you need it. If your forward speed is not great when you want to tack, you may want to bear off the wind a little to get your speed and momentum up. Once you gain speed, put the helm hard over and the bow should start to come around sharply. This is important.Keep the jib trimmed and drawing as you tack and DON'T release it until its starts to luff. As long as its drawing it will provide momentum to power you thru the wind and the waves. Once the jib starts to luff, bring it around to the other tack. The key is momentum and you can only get that with speed and by keeping your sails working thru the tack for the longest possible time. Its not foolproof, but it usually does the trick in most conditions.
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166
Setsail728@aol.com
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Al Levesque
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
Reefing is a great solution. When we had our CD25, I can recall sailing in some very bad conditions with a deeply reefed mainsail, no jib, and being in full control. We used the roller reefing with a filler (an old jacket) in the first roll to keep the boom up.Tom Foley wrote: Today I went out of the Kennebunk River, Maine in my CD25 when the winds were supposed to be 10-15 out of the north and 1-3 foot seas. Well the wind was 15-20, lots of white caps and 3plus feet choppy water...
Tacking under those conditions was a matter of building up speed sailing as close as possible to the wind and timing the waves so as not to hit a stopper before crossing the wind.
Al
albertlevesque@cove.com
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dan
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP(question)
is backwinding the jib an appropriate thing to do on a cd25 in this situation during a tack?
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Ken Coit
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
Tom,
In addition to the other comments, it sounds as if you might have stalled the rudder so that it was acting as a brake rather than trying to turn the boat. Someone else can probably tell you at what angle of attack the rudder stalls, but it is fairly low. So, gain momentum on a reach, head up slowly while trimming in the main, then turn into the wind at a point where the bow will not be buried in a wave. If you had a jib set, it would actually help push the bow around if you let it backwind as the bow swings through the wind.
Enjoy!
Ken Coit
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC
parfait@nc.rr.com
In addition to the other comments, it sounds as if you might have stalled the rudder so that it was acting as a brake rather than trying to turn the boat. Someone else can probably tell you at what angle of attack the rudder stalls, but it is fairly low. So, gain momentum on a reach, head up slowly while trimming in the main, then turn into the wind at a point where the bow will not be buried in a wave. If you had a jib set, it would actually help push the bow around if you let it backwind as the bow swings through the wind.
Enjoy!
Ken Coit
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Tom Foley wrote: Today I went out of the Kennebunk River, Maine in my CD25 when the winds were supposed to be 10-15 out of the north and 1-3 foot seas. Well the wind was 15-20, lots of white caps and 3plus feet choppy water. I put up the main only and let it all the way out. The ride was too bumpy for me. I felt very inept. After 15 minutes decided to come about but the boat wouldn't turn through the wind with the rudder all the way over. I certaintly didn't want to jibe in those winds so I decided to take the main down. I had to pull it down and then pull in the boom. I motored back to the dock. What did I do wrong? Any suggestions would be very helpful. I didn't reef because my boom is not set up for that.
Thanks
parfait@nc.rr.com
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Joe Sankey
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
Tom:
I note that you only had the main up. My guess is that without the jib you couldn't make the tack work. My recommendation is that you rig jiffy reefing on the main, preferably arranged so you can do it from the cockpit if you single hand. Once you get comfortable reefing the main with the jib up I think you'll find the boat will balance better. I only have limited experience with the 25, but they are great sailing boats and will take more than you can. However, those conditions, if not fun, can be manageable, but in my opinion you must have the ability to get that big main smaller.
Good luck,
Joe
S/V Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
sankey@gulftel.com
I note that you only had the main up. My guess is that without the jib you couldn't make the tack work. My recommendation is that you rig jiffy reefing on the main, preferably arranged so you can do it from the cockpit if you single hand. Once you get comfortable reefing the main with the jib up I think you'll find the boat will balance better. I only have limited experience with the 25, but they are great sailing boats and will take more than you can. However, those conditions, if not fun, can be manageable, but in my opinion you must have the ability to get that big main smaller.
Good luck,
Joe
S/V Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
Tom Foley wrote: Today I went out of the Kennebunk River, Maine in my CD25 when the winds were supposed to be 10-15 out of the north and 1-3 foot seas. Well the wind was 15-20, lots of white caps and 3plus feet choppy water. I put up the main only and let it all the way out. The ride was too bumpy for me. I felt very inept. After 15 minutes decided to come about but the boat wouldn't turn through the wind with the rudder all the way over. I certaintly didn't want to jibe in those winds so I decided to take the main down. I had to pull it down and then pull in the boom. I motored back to the dock. What did I do wrong? Any suggestions would be very helpful. I didn't reef because my boom is not set up for that.
Thanks
sankey@gulftel.com
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Don Carr
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
Ken;
In those kinds of winds and seas I take exception with the phrase come up slowly. Because the 25 has a lot of sheer the bow will become a windage liability. The suggestions of higher momentum along with a 'quick' tack works the best with the 25. In fact I agree that if you can get about quickly enough and delay release of the jib sheet you can let the wind 'backwind' the jib and accelerate your tack.
IMHO.
Fair Winds.
carrds@us.ibm.com
In those kinds of winds and seas I take exception with the phrase come up slowly. Because the 25 has a lot of sheer the bow will become a windage liability. The suggestions of higher momentum along with a 'quick' tack works the best with the 25. In fact I agree that if you can get about quickly enough and delay release of the jib sheet you can let the wind 'backwind' the jib and accelerate your tack.
IMHO.
Fair Winds.
carrds@us.ibm.com
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Ken Coit
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
Don,
I was more concerned about the possibility of stalling the rudder and losing power by not having proper sail trim; my "slowly" may be closer to your "quickly" than you imagine. I don't think that slamming the rudder over to its stop is the way to do it in any case. From the description, it sounds as if the rudder was hard over and the boat was in irons. It also sounded as if the sail trim was such that heading up was going to depower the boat just when power was what he needed. Heading up "slowly" gives one time to trim the main and maintain momentum before tacking.
Our terminology is a bit weak here, it would be better to be on the water experimenting. We both know it can be made to work.
Regards,
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
I was more concerned about the possibility of stalling the rudder and losing power by not having proper sail trim; my "slowly" may be closer to your "quickly" than you imagine. I don't think that slamming the rudder over to its stop is the way to do it in any case. From the description, it sounds as if the rudder was hard over and the boat was in irons. It also sounded as if the sail trim was such that heading up was going to depower the boat just when power was what he needed. Heading up "slowly" gives one time to trim the main and maintain momentum before tacking.
Our terminology is a bit weak here, it would be better to be on the water experimenting. We both know it can be made to work.
Regards,
Ken
Don Carr wrote: Ken;
In those kinds of winds and seas I take exception with the phrase come up slowly. Because the 25 has a lot of sheer the bow will become a windage liability. The suggestions of higher momentum along with a 'quick' tack works the best with the 25. In fact I agree that if you can get about quickly enough and delay release of the jib sheet you can let the wind 'backwind' the jib and accelerate your tack.
IMHO.
Fair Winds.
parfait@nc.rr.com
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Catherine Monaghan
Re: You need some headsail
Tom,
These boats won't sail very well under mainsail alone -- they especially won't point or be able to tack in high wind conditions.
In heavy winds you need to reef the main -- put in two reefs if you're uncomfortable with the conditions. And you need a headsail. If you've got a big genny on a roller furler, you'll have to reef that too. Reef it until the head of the headsail is about even with (a little above) the head of the reefed main. Or just fly the headsail by itself.
Try it.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
These boats won't sail very well under mainsail alone -- they especially won't point or be able to tack in high wind conditions.
In heavy winds you need to reef the main -- put in two reefs if you're uncomfortable with the conditions. And you need a headsail. If you've got a big genny on a roller furler, you'll have to reef that too. Reef it until the head of the headsail is about even with (a little above) the head of the reefed main. Or just fly the headsail by itself.
Try it.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
Tom Foley wrote: Today I went out of the Kennebunk River, Maine in my CD25 when the winds were supposed to be 10-15 out of the north and 1-3 foot seas. Well the wind was 15-20, lots of white caps and 3plus feet choppy water. I put up the main only and let it all the way out. The ride was too bumpy for me. I felt very inept. After 15 minutes decided to come about but the boat wouldn't turn through the wind with the rudder all the way over. I certaintly didn't want to jibe in those winds so I decided to take the main down. I had to pull it down and then pull in the boom. I motored back to the dock. What did I do wrong? Any suggestions would be very helpful. I didn't reef because my boom is not set up for that.
Thanks
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
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len
Re: You need some headsail
tom
i see people trying to go upwind on their mainsail alone, often they have rolled their jib all the way up - i guess they think it is easier than reefing the main - in holland they start out with a single reef in the mainsail and make adjustments from there -
as everyone says, get out there and keep experimenting - these boats sail wonderfully under greatly varying conditions
len
md.frel@nwh.org
i see people trying to go upwind on their mainsail alone, often they have rolled their jib all the way up - i guess they think it is easier than reefing the main - in holland they start out with a single reef in the mainsail and make adjustments from there -
as everyone says, get out there and keep experimenting - these boats sail wonderfully under greatly varying conditions
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: The French blew away the bloody jib..!!!
Tom,
You CAN tack in almost any wind with main alone and the proper finess. What would you do if the jib were blown out of her bolt ropes and all you had left was the main? Try this, main alone, fall off a little so that you are just before a broad reach, build up hull speed, then, when you are ready to tack, RELEASE the mainsheet(let the main point up BEFORE the ship does), helm over nicely, and let the momentum take her through the wind. You want that main flappin' when ya go through the eye! It will be noisy, but I think it could be done.
The point of releasing the mainsheet before tacking is to depower it so that windage is not holding you back, allow momentum to do the job.
Oh, by the way, this is how I tack a DN-60 iceboat in the winter if the ice is REAL hard and the wind is way up, it releases the pressure on the steering skate, allowing the boat to go through the eye. (This at about 70 Knots!).
This sounds like so much fun, I think I'll try it this weekend...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
You CAN tack in almost any wind with main alone and the proper finess. What would you do if the jib were blown out of her bolt ropes and all you had left was the main? Try this, main alone, fall off a little so that you are just before a broad reach, build up hull speed, then, when you are ready to tack, RELEASE the mainsheet(let the main point up BEFORE the ship does), helm over nicely, and let the momentum take her through the wind. You want that main flappin' when ya go through the eye! It will be noisy, but I think it could be done.
The point of releasing the mainsheet before tacking is to depower it so that windage is not holding you back, allow momentum to do the job.
Oh, by the way, this is how I tack a DN-60 iceboat in the winter if the ice is REAL hard and the wind is way up, it releases the pressure on the steering skate, allowing the boat to go through the eye. (This at about 70 Knots!).
This sounds like so much fun, I think I'll try it this weekend...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
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Dave
Re: Heavy winds and seas-HELP
Tom,
It sounds like all you need is to do some more practice. That is how some of the sailors become great, by learning from their mistakes. Not that you did anything really wrong, just there are better ways to do it. If you are interested I'll be more then happy to go out with you on your boat. I work down in the portsmouth area and own a 25 CD also. I also have changed the reefing set up that is much easier and could email you what i have done or show you. Email me if you are interested. I'll be sailing all week due to a much needed vacation, so if I don't respond right away that is way that is why. Otherwise, have a great sailing summer.
Dave
25' CD R&R
ddsailor25@ureach.com
It sounds like all you need is to do some more practice. That is how some of the sailors become great, by learning from their mistakes. Not that you did anything really wrong, just there are better ways to do it. If you are interested I'll be more then happy to go out with you on your boat. I work down in the portsmouth area and own a 25 CD also. I also have changed the reefing set up that is much easier and could email you what i have done or show you. Email me if you are interested. I'll be sailing all week due to a much needed vacation, so if I don't respond right away that is way that is why. Otherwise, have a great sailing summer.
Dave
25' CD R&R
Tom Foley wrote: Today I went out of the Kennebunk River, Maine in my CD25 when the winds were supposed to be 10-15 out of the north and 1-3 foot seas. Well the wind was 15-20, lots of white caps and 3plus feet choppy water. I put up the main only and let it all the way out. The ride was too bumpy for me. I felt very inept. After 15 minutes decided to come about but the boat wouldn't turn through the wind with the rudder all the way over. I certaintly didn't want to jibe in those winds so I decided to take the main down. I had to pull it down and then pull in the boom. I motored back to the dock. What did I do wrong? Any suggestions would be very helpful. I didn't reef because my boom is not set up for that.
Thanks
ddsailor25@ureach.com
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Catherine Monaghan
Re: The French blew away the bloody jib..!!!
Dave,
If you're going to sail on a broad reach, why not jibe instead of tack? If I didn't have a headsail and couldn't tack through the wind that's what I'd do. Once you've jibed, you can come up.
I know some people don't like to jibe, but when the crew is prepared, it can be done controlled and easily.
Cathy
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
If you're going to sail on a broad reach, why not jibe instead of tack? If I didn't have a headsail and couldn't tack through the wind that's what I'd do. Once you've jibed, you can come up.
I know some people don't like to jibe, but when the crew is prepared, it can be done controlled and easily.
Cathy
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Tom,
You CAN tack in almost any wind with main alone and the proper finess. What would you do if the jib were blown out of her bolt ropes and all you had left was the main? Try this, main alone, fall off a little so that you are just before a broad reach, build up hull speed, then, when you are ready to tack, RELEASE the mainsheet(let the main point up BEFORE the ship does), helm over nicely, and let the momentum take her through the wind. You want that main flappin' when ya go through the eye! It will be noisy, but I think it could be done.
The point of releasing the mainsheet before tacking is to depower it so that windage is not holding you back, allow momentum to do the job.
Oh, by the way, this is how I tack a DN-60 iceboat in the winter if the ice is REAL hard and the wind is way up, it releases the pressure on the steering skate, allowing the boat to go through the eye. (This at about 70 Knots!).
This sounds like so much fun, I think I'll try it this weekend...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
catherine_monaghan@merck.com