Navigation...paper,pc,intsruments?

[Patrick Turner]

Hey everybody,

Just thought I'd query the crowd about Navigation. I'm still in the process of a refit on an older boat and I am approaching that point where I'm looking at Radar and Navigation aids. So I thought I'd see what the current consensus is out there. I realize that it's an idividual thing, but I'd still be interested in what others have to say.
Most everybody has the basic intsruments that tell you wind, depth and speed through the water. And I assume most everybody has at least a handheld gps on board. From there it really takes off - As I see it.....there are 3 approaches to setting your boat up for navigation. If other see differently, bring it on. And by the way....this is with coastal navigation in mind on the west coast....from Mexico to Alaska.
I imagine this could be similar to the east coast all up and down to florida.

1) Basic insturments, gps, binoculars and charts.

2) All the above plus Radar and a more sophisticated gps/chartplotter.

3) All the above plus weatherfax & plugged into a pc with Navigation software.

My intial instinct was to keep it simple, but damn! Some of the new electronics and software is looking pretty attractive and from what I hear....pretty reliable and user friendly.....(still pretty expensive).

The pc software is similar to the more sophisticated gps/chartplotter, but the image is amazing! I realize that if you were to follow the pc route, the prudent thing would be to back it up with a DR on the paper chart.
What about weatherfax stuff? Anybody had experience with what's out there? Seems to me the 2 most important things to know are...am I going to run into something I can't see (radar) and what kind of weather is coming my way (weatherfax).
There's no right answere here. I would like to hear what others are thinking/doing about navigation.

Pat



patrick.t@home.com

[Warren Kaplan]

Pat,
I'm not one who needs alot of navigation sophistication as I am primarily a daysailor/short term cruiser. If you are cruising the West Coast I would assume that you are in "earshot" of radio broadcasts. If that's the case, you should be able to pick up marine weather forecasts, especially NOAA broadcasts along the US West Coast. If you are limited in the nav. gear you want aboard, I wonder how important a weatherfax would be if you can get marine forecasts done by professional weather people as opposed to amateur interpretation that the average sailor can give. Again, it depends on the availability of weather forecasts. I'm on the east coast and I can get a NOAA forecast all day long.
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD 27



Setsail728@aol.com

[Patrick Turner]

Quite true.....I don't need weather/fax (at this time). I guess I'm more interested in whether folks are leaning more towards pc's for charts and nav stuff or more towards electronic chartplotters (or just sticking with paper).

Pat



patrick.t@home.com

[John R.]

Quite true.....I don't need weather/fax (at this time). I guess I'm more interested in whether folks are leaning more towards pc's for charts and nav stuff or more towards electronic chartplotters (or just sticking with paper).

Pat

I've got weather fax onboard and what I like about it is you can see the weather rather than just hear the weather. It allows you to make notes etc,. on the printed map. You can study wind fields, determine conditions at specific waypoints along a track such as wind speed, direction, sea height etc.,. I think the advantages over a typical NOAA broadcast are significant. It's "real" weather forcasting on your chart table.

I've been thinking about the PC vs. chartplotter dilemma for quite awhile and I have not come to any conclusions on what is the best way to go or even have either one on board. You certainly don't want to rely on either one for primary navigation work but they certainly make a nice visual reference with the vessels approximate position displayed. Of course there is the traditional positioning on a paper chart as well but the quick reference on a display can be quite handy at times.

I've already got two GPS's on board, one fixed and one handheld portable (in a mount) so I have thought about a Sitex plotter only without internal GPS. That way I could interface both GPS's and the loran and not wind up paying for a third GPS just to get a plotter function. I've also considered the Interphase unit which may have the same guts as the Sitex because the functioning is very similar. They may have come out of the same factory from what I can tell. Either way the investment is over $500 minimum for either of those two units. The PC is not so straight forward, a lot has to be taken into consideration, primarily the cost. On a smaller CD a laptop is the only suitable PC and probably something very compact like a Toshiba Libretto or a larger but still compact Sony Viao would be appropriate. Though there is a big difference in cost between the two. There are other very compact units that a person would have to take into consideration as well. Add to the cost of a laptop the charting software and interface and you've got a sizeable investment but with a SSB receiver and software etc, you could also have the added benefit of weatherfax on the same PC plus you could go to the point of adding e-mail. Of course a printer could be added for weatherfax hard copies and reference chart printouts. The problem with the PC is vulnerability and dependability on a small boat. On a larger CD like a 36 or a trawler I'd probably strongly consider a regular PC over a laptop to save money but you would need a generator or sine wave inverter when away from the dock for power. The more one thinks about all this stuff the more attractive a basic plotter becomes. And the more one thinks about that (Cartridge costs)it seems to me the more attractive the basic paper chart and pencil become. The weatherfax however is a totally different matter. I think it is a very effective aid. Very cost effective also for what they give in return.

Radar is one of those geographic things in my opinion. It really depends on where you are boating. A radar is really no better than the individual interpreting the targets rendered. There are plenty of stories circulating around where they have caused incidents rather than prevented them. This is a very controversial piece of equipment. We have had one for years, was it really necessary, probably not. Can I trust it, well that's a long story, sometimes yes and sometimes no. If I bought a new one today and didn't need to rely on it heavily then I sure would spend as little as possible. The JRC is a nice little radar and so is the Sitex, both are easy to use and reasonable in cost.

I still like to have a RDF (radio direction finder) on board. They remain a very very very dependable navigation tool and are a bargain. You can get excellent ones dirt cheap at swap meets and consignment shops.

Top notch binoculars are in my opinion worth their weight in gold, especially the Steiners.

In fog I like to use the listen back feature on our hailer. It uses the mast mounted hailer speaker as a microphone in listen back mode.Works great under sail but you need headphones when the diesel is running.

Redundancy in nav gear is more important than bells and whistles I believe. More than one radio, more than one GPS or loran, is far better than a pretty screen to gaze at. Certainly computer presence and influence is going to increase on even small boats in the future, the question is this, is it necessary?

If I decide on a visual screen plotter it will probably be a dedicated plotter and not a PC at this point.

[Patrick Turner]

Thanks John,

...for the input. I'm leaning towards the gps/chartplotter myself. That'l give me a 2nd gps unit and a visual reference. Garmin has just come out with new chart cartridges (Blue Charts) that cover the whole West Coast of the U.S. and down into Mexico for $150. They are based on Maptech and apparently are very detailed. If the East coast is not yet available, it soon will be. The other manufacturers are going to have to respond in kind cuz trying to by standard chart chips to cover that same area would be about $1000.

Another piece of gear that looks very interesting to me, but I don't know anyone who uses it is the Yeoman. Have you ever heard of one of these things and if so...was it positive or negative? For those who may not be familiar, the Yeoman is a system that allows you to use traditional paper charts mounted on a digital "clipboard". A "mouse" with a cross hairs like aperture in it is attatched to the clipboard. As you slide the mouse around on the chart, you get a digital readout of lat and long on the mouse. It seems like a real nice marriage of traditional and new technology. Anyone have any first hand experience with one of these units?


Pat



patrick.t@home.com

[Larry Mace]

Pat,
I am sailing on the west coast and using a Raytheon GPS chartplotter with radar. I am quite pleased with the chartplotter but am still learning the radar. At this point I just do not have confidence in the radar to trust it. In regards to the weatherfax I think this is a nice addition to the NOAA broadcasts and plan to access thru my SSB and a PC program. the NOAA forecasts for the offshore waters around San Francisco are not reliable and are very condensed. Last year we left a day early to return to SF when the forecast for the next day was a gale but ended up in a gale that day by noon with the forecast for wind and seas to be nowhere near gale. I find I can get a better forecast utilizing the various sources on the net. What I would really like is internet access from the boat but currently the speed at 9600 is to slow to be cost effective.
Larry
CD 33 dolce

...for the input. I'm leaning towards the gps/chartplotter myself. That'l give me a 2nd gps unit and a visual reference. Garmin has just come out with new chart cartridges (Blue Charts) that cover the whole West Coast of the U.S. and down into Mexico for $150. They are based on Maptech and apparently are very detailed. If the East coast is not yet available, it soon will be. The other manufacturers are going to have to respond in kind cuz trying to by standard chart chips to cover that same area would be about $1000.

Another piece of gear that looks very interesting to me, but I don't know anyone who uses it is the Yeoman. Have you ever heard of one of these things and if so...was it positive or negative? For those who may not be familiar, the Yeoman is a system that allows you to use traditional paper charts mounted on a digital "clipboard". A "mouse" with a cross hairs like aperture in it is attatched to the clipboard. As you slide the mouse around on the chart, you get a digital readout of lat and long on the mouse. It seems like a real nice marriage of traditional and new technology. Anyone have any first hand experience with one of these units?


Pat

[John R.]

Thanks John,

...for the input. I'm leaning towards the gps/chartplotter myself. That'l give me a 2nd gps unit and a visual reference. Garmin has just come out with new chart cartridges (Blue Charts) that cover the whole West Coast of the U.S. and down into Mexico for $150. They are based on Maptech and apparently are very detailed. If the East coast is not yet available, it soon will be. The other manufacturers are going to have to respond in kind cuz trying to by standard chart chips to cover that same area would be about $1000.

Another piece of gear that looks very interesting to me, but I don't know anyone who uses it is the Yeoman. Have you ever heard of one of these things and if so...was it positive or negative? For those who may not be familiar, the Yeoman is a system that allows you to use traditional paper charts mounted on a digital "clipboard". A "mouse" with a cross hairs like aperture in it is attatched to the clipboard. As you slide the mouse around on the chart, you get a digital readout of lat and long on the mouse. It seems like a real nice marriage of traditional and new technology. Anyone have any first hand experience with one of these units?


Pat

I've seen the Yeoman unit at boat shows but am not any more familiar with using it than you are. Based on your comments regarding the new Garmin Blue Charts with Maptec detail (very important)I would think that to be a better choice than the Yeoman from what I know about it.

Certainly the cost per coverage of that new Garmin chart is extremely attractive. I have always leaned toward the CmapNT cartridges but I'm going to have to check out these new Blue cartridges before I plunk down cash on a plotter. Unfortunately for my case I don't think Garmin has ever manufactured a plotter without a built in GPS receiver.

Larry mentioned the internet as being attractive for navigation and weather and I somewhat agree and I think the day is not far down the road when it will be economical and sophisticated enough to justify having the connection onboard when away from the dock. However radio weatherfax signals are still probably going to be more dependable well into the future. His comments regarding the gale situation and forecasts is exactly what I was talking about in my other post about the great benefits of weatherfax.

[Bill Shambora]

Good questions.

We used a Yeoman from Bahamas to Bermuda to Chesapeake in a CD 33. It's cute, but I am just as happy without it. After weeks of using the thing, I never could figure out the advantage of the Yeoman over using divider and parallel. When the GPS broke because of water damage so did the Yeoman. The handheld backup GPS came in very handy. In rough and wet conditions as well as chart changes the Yeoman had to be reoriented. I've found more useful presents to buy my CD.

A friend uses his PC linked to GPS as a chartplotter, etc. for long cruises. He was very happy with this setup until his cockpit got swamped while he had the PC in his lap. The computer had to be replaced. With no paper backup charts he found navigation very difficult. He swore he would print out charts before he left. Bet he does next time.

I have found VHS NOAA radio very reliable in that they are consistently wrong - even about current conditions. Voice broadcasts over SSB have also led me astray. Although I would think that the information originates in the same place, aviation weather forecasts are very good. I don't know who disseminates the weatherfax info, but I understand it is very useful and am seriously considering adding it before my next bluewater cruise, especially if I go during hurricane season.

I am reading with interest what everyone has to say about radar. I don't have it and have never used it.

Bill
D.Ann (CD 28)



shambora@ohio.edu

[Richard Stephens]

Pat,

The Yeoman plotter is an excellent product. It solves the basic problem of reliably entering waypoint information into the GPS.

The advantage is you don't have to buy separate digital maps. It works on your existing paper charts.

The disadvantage is that you can only work with one chart at a time, it takes a while to setup and calibrate each chart.

It is a well made product (Yeoman also make the well-respected Brookes and Gatehouse range of instruments), and it works.

Regards,
Richard.



Richard@memory-map.com

[John Nuttall]

going to limit the Internet wireless utility as these freqs are Line-of-Sight. Pretty much limited to near shore comm. until lots of satellites are inplace and affordable......

Can SSB provide connections to the Internet? Can SSB provide enough bandwidth to get significant info xmitted? Anybody know? It's been a long time since I went through USN Radioman "A" School at Bainbridge, MD. I can't remember half of what I learned about HF.....

I wonder where the future lies....Hopefully by the time I outfit a "36" and head offshore Pat will have it all figured out for me..

John Nuttall
s/v Aimless
CD31 #28
Oriental, NC (but waiting out this nasty front at home in Lizard Lick, NC. NCCDOA raft up tomorrow, hope this mess blows thru....)

ps - there really is a Lizard Lick Ken Coit !!!



aimless@nc.rr.com

[Richard Stephens]

John,

My company, Memory-Map, sells a device that combines the advantages of a dedicated plotter with PC navigation software: the "Memory-Map Handheld-Pro Navigation system".

+ It is a compact, lightweight unit that is much more easily accomodated on board than a laptop.
+ Fast scrolling and zooming with touch screen.
+ It draws only 200mA.
+ it has an 8 inch color display, viewable in bright sunlight.
+ Priced around $2000 (complete system including hardware and software).

We also do navigation software for PCs and PocketPCs.

See <a href=http:www.memory-map.com>www.memory-map.com</a>

Regards,
Richard.



[img]http://www.memory-map.com/fujitsu_marine.jpg[/img]
richard@memory-map.com