CD Typhoon Restoration Project

[Rick Parish]

I have just bought a 1965 Typhoon Weekender Hull #34. It's a mess. I'm doing a restoration project to bring the boat back to as near original condition as I am capable of doing. Using this WEB site seems like a great way for other owners to learn what I am doing and a great way for me to learn from others. Here's an overview of the work to be done. Deck and topsides were painted over the original fiberglass. I do not know the type of paint, but I suspect enamel. The paint has pealed off in places, there are paint runs in other places and curious looking bubbles and creaters in other places. Below the water line, an effort was made by the previous owner to remove the old bottom paint. In some spots the gelcoat was also removed. The rudder is delaminating. All deck mounted wood trim needs to be replaced. The interior was "modified" by the original owner. It needs to be completely removed - just leaving the structural members. The good news is the mast is straight. To date I have removed almost all deck mounted wood trim. I am having difficulty removing the brass screws that hold the stem fitting, chocks, and toe rail at the bow. It seems the screws are bedded in backing blocks in the forepeak. I can not budge the screws. All other screws, bolts, etc for the remaining toe rail, coaming and fittings came out easily - even after 33 years! All these screws were stainless. To remove the brass screws I mentioned above, I plan the following attack. 1. Four to five days of soaking with WD-40. 2. Apply heat to the screws. If both fail, I'll chisle out the wood under the fittings and cut the screws off at deck level. Anybody got another suggestion?



parish6@ibm.net

[ee Hodsdon]

Rick,

On my Typhoon the stem piece screws were machine screws which fastened to imbeded nuts as you mentioned. Try the WD-40 followed by an impact screw driver. This should loosen the bolts. Sounds like a great project on a wonderful boat.

Best of luck,

Lee

I have just bought a 1965 Typhoon Weekender Hull #34. It's a mess. I'm doing a restoration project to bring the boat back to as near original condition as I am capable of doing. Using this WEB site seems like a great way for other owners to learn what I am doing and a great way for me to learn from others. Here's an overview of the work to be done. Deck and topsides were painted over the original fiberglass. I do not know the type of paint, but I suspect enamel. The paint has pealed off in places, there are paint runs in other places and curious looking bubbles and creaters in other places. Below the water line, an effort was made by the previous owner to remove the old bottom paint. In some spots the gelcoat was also removed. The rudder is delaminating. All deck mounted wood trim needs to be replaced. The interior was "modified" by the original owner. It needs to be completely removed - just leaving the structural members. The good news is the mast is straight. To date I have removed almost all deck mounted wood trim. I am having difficulty removing the brass screws that hold the stem fitting, chocks, and toe rail at the bow. It seems the screws are bedded in backing blocks in the forepeak. I can not budge the screws. All other screws, bolts, etc for the remaining toe rail, coaming and fittings came out easily - even after 33 years! All these screws were stainless. To remove the brass screws I mentioned above, I plan the following attack. 1. Four to five days of soaking with WD-40. 2. Apply heat to the screws. If both fail, I'll chisle out the wood under the fittings and cut the screws off at deck level. Anybody got another suggestion?

lhodsdon@nh.ultranet.com

[Jessica Morton]

I have just bought a 1965 Typhoon Weekender Hull #34. It's a mess. I'm doing a restoration project to bring the boat back to as near original condition as I am capable of doing. Using this WEB site seems like a great way for other owners to learn what I am doing and a great way for me to learn from others. Here's an overview of the work to be done. Deck and topsides were painted over the original fiberglass. I do not know the type of paint, but I suspect enamel. The paint has pealed off in places, there are paint runs in other places and curious looking bubbles and creaters in other places. Below the water line, an effort was made by the previous owner to remove the old bottom paint. In some spots the gelcoat was also removed. The rudder is delaminating. All deck mounted wood trim needs to be replaced. The interior was "modified" by the original owner. It needs to be completely removed - just leaving the structural members. The good news is the mast is straight. To date I have removed almost all deck mounted wood trim. I am having difficulty removing the brass screws that hold the stem fitting, chocks, and toe rail at the bow. It seems the screws are bedded in backing blocks in the forepeak. I can not budge the screws. All other screws, bolts, etc for the remaining toe rail, coaming and fittings came out easily - even after 33 years! All these screws were stainless. To remove the brass screws I mentioned above, I plan the following attack. 1. Four to five days of soaking with WD-40. 2. Apply heat to the screws. If both fail, I'll chisle out the wood under the fittings and cut the screws off at deck level. Anybody got another suggestion?

Rick,
a friend and I are embarking on a restoration of a 1971 Typhoon. I don't have an answer for your question, we haven't gotten that far (also, the boating school who owned her for a number of years before us stripped a lot of fittings and any wood trim off her). But I thought it might be edifying for us, and perhaps for people who use this web site, to keep in touch re. our repairs. We could post our experiences, or just keep in touch via email?
At any rate, we are losing sleep over her hull. We had a fiberglass expert look at it briefly (we are going to talk to him in detail tomorrow), but his preliminary opinion was that the fiberglass resin moisture content is/was too low. My understanding is that that is bad. The boating school also, it looks like, taught students how to dock under sail with her, and from the looks of her hull, it was a beginning class.
Any experiences with old fiberglass? What are you doing re. the structure?
Our mast, unfortunately, is not straight--there is a bit of a weather helm.



jmorton@ensr.com

[Ferd Moyse]

Hey Rick & Jessica....can I get in on this? I am restoring hull #89, billed as a 1969 but titled as a 1972. Plate says: Carl Alberg TYPHOON built by Cape Dory Yachts, rather than Cape Dory Typhoon. Anyway, she is a weekender and was pretty pitiful when I started (the result of Hurricane Opal in 1995) and I'm about 80% finished now. I'd love to be on your "list" whatever form it may take and share experiences. Ferd



seawolf@tecinfo.com

[Rick Parish]

Well I couldn't find anyone who had an impact screw driver and I didn't want to buy one to remove so few bolts and screws. So I sawed and hacked away the underlying teak which left me with a stem head fitting and two chocks. All sitting high and pretty with the underlying teak now history. I used a grinder and cut off the 6 bolts attaching the two chocks. I'm going to leave the stem head fitting alone. When I replace the teak I will mill the thickness to I get a good tight fit under the stem head fitting. Not an elegant solution.

Rick,

On my Typhoon the stem piece screws were machine screws which fastened to imbeded nuts as you mentioned. Try the WD-40 followed by an impact screw driver. This should loosen the bolts. Sounds like a great project on a wonderful boat.

Best of luck,

Lee

I have just bought a 1965 Typhoon Weekender Hull #34. It's a mess. I'm doing a restoration project to bring the boat back to as near original condition as I am capable of doing. Using this WEB site seems like a great way for other owners to learn what I am doing and a great way for me to learn from others. Here's an overview of the work to be done. Deck and topsides were painted over the original fiberglass. I do not know the type of paint, but I suspect enamel. The paint has pealed off in places, there are paint runs in other places and curious looking bubbles and creaters in other places. Below the water line, an effort was made by the previous owner to remove the old bottom paint. In some spots the gelcoat was also removed. The rudder is delaminating. All deck mounted wood trim needs to be replaced. The interior was "modified" by the original owner. It needs to be completely removed - just leaving the structural members. The good news is the mast is straight. To date I have removed almost all deck mounted wood trim. I am having difficulty removing the brass screws that hold the stem fitting, chocks, and toe rail at the bow. It seems the screws are bedded in backing blocks in the forepeak. I can not budge the screws. All other screws, bolts, etc for the remaining toe rail, coaming and fittings came out easily - even after 33 years! All these screws were stainless. To remove the brass screws I mentioned above, I plan the following attack. 1. Four to five days of soaking with WD-40. 2. Apply heat to the screws. If both fail, I'll chisle out the wood under the fittings and cut the screws off at deck level. Anybody got another suggestion?

parish6@ibm.net

[Rick Parish]

Jessica it would be great to share ideas on Typhoon restorations. I wish I know enough about bulletin boards to know how to set up a way for you Ferd and I to communicate effeciently. I plan to reply to his message with a reply similar to what I am about to say to you below. Here's where I am with the project to date... I removed all exterior wood and metal fittings. The toe rail and metal fittings came off easily. The toe rail was screwed on. So was the hull/deck joint (which is disappointing). The stainless screws came out easy. I'll replace with bolts. The hull/deck joint looks good, but how do you tell unless you blast away it it with a water hose? The toe rail and coaming will be replaced with new teak or mahogany after I paint the hull and deck. Some of the original wood will be salvagable but not all. I have been unable to remove the brass stem head fitting. The screw heads will not budge and I don't want to try too hard or I'll ruin the screw slots. So I cut the teak from under the fitting. When I'm ready to replace the toe rail I'll just mill the thickness of the teak carefully to a thickness that will give me a snug fit under the stem head fitting. I tried to strip the old paint off the deck. Stripper did not work well for me so I gave up after about 4 sq. feet and tried a scraper. I found the scraper took the old paint off in some areas but the underlying gel coat was in very bad shape. So I decided to only scrape away old paint where it easily was removable. Then I sanded the deck completely with 120 grit paper by hand and made sure I faired carefully the areas where paint is adjacent to gel coat. I hope to God the old paint I am leaving on deck does not decide to peal away from the gel coat some day. I then used Marine Tex to fill in gouges, cracks and imperfections in the paint or gel coat that remains. This weekend I'm going to fill all the holes from the removed toe rail and deck fittings with epoxy. I also will use epoxy to try to fix a 3 sq foot area on the aft deck where the core delaminated from the fiberglass laminate. The core is wet so I've been airing it out hoping it will dry naturally this week. I drilled 3/16" holes every 4" through the gel coat so the core could get some ventilation and hopefully dry out. I'll use the proceedure recommended by WEST to fill the delaimination void. Wish me luck. Next weekend I'll sand the Marine Tex fair with the surounding surface, fill in any imperfections I missed the first time (it's amazing how many new imperfections I find when I walk away from the job and come back to it later). I'll sand the whole deck again with 120 grit, then again with 150 grit. Then I'll put down a coat of primer. Probably the primer will highlight flaws in the deck that my sanding and filling missed, so I'll sand and fill and sand and prime again. I think I'll use Interlux one part polyurethane (Brightside) as my finish coat so I'll use the recommended primer. I'm a fair house painter with water base latex, but I'm afraid of the two part polyurethanes. I've never worked with it or seen anyone work with it. There is something curious I discovered. Since your boat is of similar age, I'll share this with you. My mast is deck stepped. When I removed the deck step I found a hole through the deck the same size and shape as a cross section of the mast. On the plywood floor inside the boat was an imprint of the mast cross section. It seems the mast at one time might have been stepped to a plywood step inside the boat. Then later modified to an on deck step. Is your mast deck stepped? Let's stay in touch. I'm interested it what you have done and in any comments you have on what I have done. Regarding you question about the hull structure, the hull seems fine except for some small dings and scratches. I sounded the hull and found no delamination evidence. I mentioned the deck delamination above. I plan to patch the dings and scratches then sand and paint the hull with Brightside. What made you seek the advise of a fiberglass expert? Did you observe something about the glass that concerned you? Explain this "fiberglass resin moisture content too low" remark you made. I would like to understand the issue better. I may have some books or other sources for you to refer to before you spend any more sleepless nights worrying about fiberglass moisture content. Please stay in touch.

I have just bought a 1965 Typhoon Weekender Hull #34. It's a mess. I'm doing a restoration project to bring the boat back to as near original condition as I am capable of doing. Using this WEB site seems like a great way for other owners to learn what I am doing and a great way for me to learn from others. Here's an overview of the work to be done. Deck and topsides were painted over the original fiberglass. I do not know the type of paint, but I suspect enamel. The paint has pealed off in places, there are paint runs in other places and curious looking bubbles and creaters in other places. Below the water line, an effort was made by the previous owner to remove the old bottom paint. In some spots the gelcoat was also removed. The rudder is delaminating. All deck mounted wood trim needs to be replaced. The interior was "modified" by the original owner. It needs to be completely removed - just leaving the structural members. The good news is the mast is straight. To date I have removed almost all deck mounted wood trim. I am having difficulty removing the brass screws that hold the stem fitting, chocks, and toe rail at the bow. It seems the screws are bedded in backing blocks in the forepeak. I can not budge the screws. All other screws, bolts, etc for the remaining toe rail, coaming and fittings came out easily - even after 33 years! All these screws were stainless. To remove the brass screws I mentioned above, I plan the following attack. 1. Four to five days of soaking with WD-40. 2. Apply heat to the screws. If both fail, I'll chisle out the wood under the fittings and cut the screws off at deck level. Anybody got another suggestion?

Rick,
a friend and I are embarking on a restoration of a 1971 Typhoon. I don't have an answer for your question, we haven't gotten that far (also, the boating school who owned her for a number of years before us stripped a lot of fittings and any wood trim off her). But I thought it might be edifying for us, and perhaps for people who use this web site, to keep in touch re. our repairs. We could post our experiences, or just keep in touch via email?
At any rate, we are losing sleep over her hull. We had a fiberglass expert look at it briefly (we are going to talk to him in detail tomorrow), but his preliminary opinion was that the fiberglass resin moisture content is/was too low. My understanding is that that is bad. The boating school also, it looks like, taught students how to dock under sail with her, and from the looks of her hull, it was a beginning class.
Any experiences with old fiberglass? What are you doing re. the structure?
Our mast, unfortunately, is not straight--there is a bit of a weather helm.

parish6@ibm.net

[Jessica Morton]

Rick, one way to look for holes in the deck/hull joint is to sand it thoroughly with fine (180 plus) sandpaper, and look for dust inside. This worked for us--if there's a way, the dust will travel.
We haven't found any evidence that the mast was stepped anywhere but on the deck--a support structure runs directly under the mast foot inside of the cabin, making it seem fairly improbable that it ever came through in that area.
So, let's talk about fiberglass. Well, according to our expert, boats made in the early 70's suffered from the fuel shortage. The fiberglass resin is a petroleum product, and its cost went up, so some boatyards apparently cut some corners and were not liberal enough with the resin. This, 25 years down the line, results in a "dry" fiberglass boat, which delaminates more easily. Especially when stressed, which ours has most evidently been. There are two large sections on port and starboard, in the area of the waterline and below the stays that have come into contact with hard objects numerous times, and as a result look rather unhealthy. We have removed the gelcoat, and have classed the fiberglass into three categories. A dark greyish color is healthy fiberglass, a dirty yellow urine color is sick fiberglass, but still solid feeling, and a white-yellow, pee-in-snow color is dead fiberglass, and you can easily pick at it with a tool. This dead fiberglass is at the point of contact of a collision (we guess), or where the weakened fiberglass was exposed to water, and over time soaked it up and became delaminated.
We have also discovered (sympathy letters accepted) that the area above the keel joint acts like a cup and holds water. The fiberglass in that area may have been weakened at some point, as the water soaked all the way through the 2 inches of fiberglass and was visibly damp on the outside, after removing the gel coat in that area. We are now removing the gelcoat in ANY area that looks even slightly suspicious to fully estimate the damage. The fiberglass expert was apparently not by nature an optimistic guy, and recommended we cut up the boat and put it in the dumpster. But upon further questioning that appears to be his recommendation for ANY boat, and so we took it with a grain of salt. It is, however, obvious that we have some serious work to do. We are opting for fiberglassing as opposed to epoxy, cost being an issue.
It's our opinion that the boat would not be this bad if all those dings and scratches had been properly cared for when they occurred. they were left to their own unfortunately, and what was once a ding soaked up a little water each season and started to delaminate. We would have discovered little of this if I had not insisted we remove the gelcoat in certain areas, and I recommend that if you are even faintly suspicious, you investigate further.
Also, you mentioned a core in your fiberglass-we don't have a core, it's just solid fiberglass. Thick on the topsides, but thinner about a foot below the waterline--a "soft belly".
The good news is that our deck is in remakably good condition, no stress cracks or delam. You mentioned replacing some of the wood with mahogany--I recommend against it if it will get any weather, as it will not hold up nearly as well as teak, and it is also much softer and will not wear well.



jmorton@ensr.com

[Rick Parish]

Jessica - Sounds like we should take your deck and my hull and make one new boat. Your hull problems sound serious, but I would suggest you get a second opinion on the condition of the fiberglass. I'm no expert, but ..... Is fiberglass less expensive than epoxy? I haven't priced fiberglass. It sounds like you are planning to put a new layer or two of laminate over the existing fiberglass. Correct? Have you read anything about how to do that? Advice from friends?
The delamination I referred to in my boat is on the deck, not the hull as you indicated. There is a core in the deck. I've almost completed sanding and fairing the decks in preparation for primer. The delamination is about 4 sq. ft on the aft deck and it's taken over 2 qts of epoxy to fill the void left by the rotted core. Thank you for the idea on how to find voids in the hull/deck joint. It worked. I appreciate your comments about mahogany vs teak. The trim around the companionway is mahogany, so is the bulkhead. The coamings are also mahogany. Sliding hatch and cockpit seats are teak as is toe rail. Diversity. Do you know anything about how to fix a crack in veneer? Looking to the future, I'm going to need some brass deck fittings - cleats, jib track, chocks, traveler. Any ideas on where to look? Most of the retail outlets in Tampa offer only "the new stuff". Older style brass hardware has not exactly jumped off the shelf into my shopping basket. Thanks for your help, back to the sander tomorrow. Rick

Rick, one way to look for holes in the deck/hull joint is to sand it thoroughly with fine (180 plus) sandpaper, and look for dust inside. This worked for us--if there's a way, the dust will travel.
We haven't found any evidence that the mast was stepped anywhere but on the deck--a support structure runs directly under the mast foot inside of the cabin, making it seem fairly improbable that it ever came through in that area.
So, let's talk about fiberglass. Well, according to our expert, boats made in the early 70's suffered from the fuel shortage. The fiberglass resin is a petroleum product, and its cost went up, so some boatyards apparently cut some corners and were not liberal enough with the resin. This, 25 years down the line, results in a "dry" fiberglass boat, which delaminates more easily. Especially when stressed, which ours has most evidently been. There are two large sections on port and starboard, in the area of the waterline and below the stays that have come into contact with hard objects numerous times, and as a result look rather unhealthy. We have removed the gelcoat, and have classed the fiberglass into three categories. A dark greyish color is healthy fiberglass, a dirty yellow urine color is sick fiberglass, but still solid feeling, and a white-yellow, pee-in-snow color is dead fiberglass, and you can easily pick at it with a tool. This dead fiberglass is at the point of contact of a collision (we guess), or where the weakened fiberglass was exposed to water, and over time soaked it up and became delaminated.
We have also discovered (sympathy letters accepted) that the area above the keel joint acts like a cup and holds water. The fiberglass in that area may have been weakened at some point, as the water soaked all the way through the 2 inches of fiberglass and was visibly damp on the outside, after removing the gel coat in that area. We are now removing the gelcoat in ANY area that looks even slightly suspicious to fully estimate the damage. The fiberglass expert was apparently not by nature an optimistic guy, and recommended we cut up the boat and put it in the dumpster. But upon further questioning that appears to be his recommendation for ANY boat, and so we took it with a grain of salt. It is, however, obvious that we have some serious work to do. We are opting for fiberglassing as opposed to epoxy, cost being an issue.
It's our opinion that the boat would not be this bad if all those dings and scratches had been properly cared for when they occurred. they were left to their own unfortunately, and what was once a ding soaked up a little water each season and started to delaminate. We would have discovered little of this if I had not insisted we remove the gelcoat in certain areas, and I recommend that if you are even faintly suspicious, you investigate further.
Also, you mentioned a core in your fiberglass-we don't have a core, it's just solid fiberglass. Thick on the topsides, but thinner about a foot below the waterline--a "soft belly".
The good news is that our deck is in remakably good condition, no stress cracks or delam. You mentioned replacing some of the wood with mahogany--I recommend against it if it will get any weather, as it will not hold up nearly as well as teak, and it is also much softer and will not wear well.

parish6@ibm.net

[Rick Parish]

Ferd, I'm still working on preping the deck (see messages to Jessica), but I am thinking ahead to installing a new toe rail. Do you have any experience in that area?

Hey Rick & Jessica....can I get in on this? I am restoring hull #89, billed as a 1969 but titled as a 1972. Plate says: Carl Alberg TYPHOON built by Cape Dory Yachts, rather than Cape Dory Typhoon. Anyway, she is a weekender and was pretty pitiful when I started (the result of Hurricane Opal in 1995) and I'm about 80% finished now. I'd love to be on your "list" whatever form it may take and share experiences. Ferd

parish6@ibm.net

[Bob Bundy]

Rick
I have ordered "Spartan" bronze turnbuckles from Traditional Marine Outfitters. They also carry many other bronze hardware items. I think that they are from Maine or NovaScotia. I don't really know how to get in touch with them now. You may want to try "Spartan". There have been some other postings for harware and such that you may want to search for. It has been fun reading about your progress. Gives me an idea of what I am in for in eventually. Good luck with it.
Bob

Jessica - Sounds like we should take your deck and my hull and make one new boat. Your hull problems sound serious, but I would suggest you get a second opinion on the condition of the fiberglass. I'm no expert, but ..... Is fiberglass less expensive than epoxy? I haven't priced fiberglass. It sounds like you are planning to put a new layer or two of laminate over the existing fiberglass. Correct? Have you read anything about how to do that? Advice from friends?
The delamination I referred to in my boat is on the deck, not the hull as you indicated. There is a core in the deck. I've almost completed sanding and fairing the decks in preparation for primer. The delamination is about 4 sq. ft on the aft deck and it's taken over 2 qts of epoxy to fill the void left by the rotted core. Thank you for the idea on how to find voids in the hull/deck joint. It worked. I appreciate your comments about mahogany vs teak. The trim around the companionway is mahogany, so is the bulkhead. The coamings are also mahogany. Sliding hatch and cockpit seats are teak as is toe rail. Diversity. Do you know anything about how to fix a crack in veneer? Looking to the future, I'm going to need some brass deck fittings - cleats, jib track, chocks, traveler. Any ideas on where to look? Most of the retail outlets in Tampa offer only "the new stuff". Older style brass hardware has not exactly jumped off the shelf into my shopping basket. Thanks for your help, back to the sander tomorrow. Rick

Rick, one way to look for holes in the deck/hull joint is to sand it thoroughly with fine (180 plus) sandpaper, and look for dust inside. This worked for us--if there's a way, the dust will travel.
We haven't found any evidence that the mast was stepped anywhere but on the deck--a support structure runs directly under the mast foot inside of the cabin, making it seem fairly improbable that it ever came through in that area.
So, let's talk about fiberglass. Well, according to our expert, boats made in the early 70's suffered from the fuel shortage. The fiberglass resin is a petroleum product, and its cost went up, so some boatyards apparently cut some corners and were not liberal enough with the resin. This, 25 years down the line, results in a "dry" fiberglass boat, which delaminates more easily. Especially when stressed, which ours has most evidently been. There are two large sections on port and starboard, in the area of the waterline and below the stays that have come into contact with hard objects numerous times, and as a result look rather unhealthy. We have removed the gelcoat, and have classed the fiberglass into three categories. A dark greyish color is healthy fiberglass, a dirty yellow urine color is sick fiberglass, but still solid feeling, and a white-yellow, pee-in-snow color is dead fiberglass, and you can easily pick at it with a tool. This dead fiberglass is at the point of contact of a collision (we guess), or where the weakened fiberglass was exposed to water, and over time soaked it up and became delaminated.
We have also discovered (sympathy letters accepted) that the area above the keel joint acts like a cup and holds water. The fiberglass in that area may have been weakened at some point, as the water soaked all the way through the 2 inches of fiberglass and was visibly damp on the outside, after removing the gel coat in that area. We are now removing the gelcoat in ANY area that looks even slightly suspicious to fully estimate the damage. The fiberglass expert was apparently not by nature an optimistic guy, and recommended we cut up the boat and put it in the dumpster. But upon further questioning that appears to be his recommendation for ANY boat, and so we took it with a grain of salt. It is, however, obvious that we have some serious work to do. We are opting for fiberglassing as opposed to epoxy, cost being an issue.
It's our opinion that the boat would not be this bad if all those dings and scratches had been properly cared for when they occurred. they were left to their own unfortunately, and what was once a ding soaked up a little water each season and started to delaminate. We would have discovered little of this if I had not insisted we remove the gelcoat in certain areas, and I recommend that if you are even faintly suspicious, you investigate further.
Also, you mentioned a core in your fiberglass-we don't have a core, it's just solid fiberglass. Thick on the topsides, but thinner about a foot below the waterline--a "soft belly".
The good news is that our deck is in remakably good condition, no stress cracks or delam. You mentioned replacing some of the wood with mahogany--I recommend against it if it will get any weather, as it will not hold up nearly as well as teak, and it is also much softer and will not wear well.

BundyR@AOL.com

[Dana]

Traditional Marine Outfitters
P.O. Box 268
Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia

http://www.imagemill.com/marine/index.html (Web Site)
I have added this link at the very bottom of this message page so one can just click on it.

Dana
____________________________________________________________________

Rick
I have ordered "Spartan" bronze turnbuckles from Traditional Marine Outfitters. They also carry many other bronze hardware items. I think that they are from Maine or NovaScotia. I don't really know how to get in touch with them now. You may want to try "Spartan". There have been some other postings for harware and such that you may want to search for. It has been fun reading about your progress. Gives me an idea of what I am in for in eventually. Good luck with it.
Bob

Jessica - Sounds like we should take your deck and my hull and make one new boat. Your hull problems sound serious, but I would suggest you get a second opinion on the condition of the fiberglass. I'm no expert, but ..... Is fiberglass less expensive than epoxy? I haven't priced fiberglass. It sounds like you are planning to put a new layer or two of laminate over the existing fiberglass. Correct? Have you read anything about how to do that? Advice from friends?
The delamination I referred to in my boat is on the deck, not the hull as you indicated. There is a core in the deck. I've almost completed sanding and fairing the decks in preparation for primer. The delamination is about 4 sq. ft on the aft deck and it's taken over 2 qts of epoxy to fill the void left by the rotted core. Thank you for the idea on how to find voids in the hull/deck joint. It worked. I appreciate your comments about mahogany vs teak. The trim around the companionway is mahogany, so is the bulkhead. The coamings are also mahogany. Sliding hatch and cockpit seats are teak as is toe rail. Diversity. Do you know anything about how to fix a crack in veneer? Looking to the future, I'm going to need some brass deck fittings - cleats, jib track, chocks, traveler. Any ideas on where to look? Most of the retail outlets in Tampa offer only "the new stuff". Older style brass hardware has not exactly jumped off the shelf into my shopping basket. Thanks for your help, back to the sander tomorrow. Rick

Rick, one way to look for holes in the deck/hull joint is to sand it thoroughly with fine (180 plus) sandpaper, and look for dust inside. This worked for us--if there's a way, the dust will travel.
We haven't found any evidence that the mast was stepped anywhere but on the deck--a support structure runs directly under the mast foot inside of the cabin, making it seem fairly improbable that it ever came through in that area.
So, let's talk about fiberglass. Well, according to our expert, boats made in the early 70's suffered from the fuel shortage. The fiberglass resin is a petroleum product, and its cost went up, so some boatyards apparently cut some corners and were not liberal enough with the resin. This, 25 years down the line, results in a "dry" fiberglass boat, which delaminates more easily. Especially when stressed, which ours has most evidently been. There are two large sections on port and starboard, in the area of the waterline and below the stays that have come into contact with hard objects numerous times, and as a result look rather unhealthy. We have removed the gelcoat, and have classed the fiberglass into three categories. A dark greyish color is healthy fiberglass, a dirty yellow urine color is sick fiberglass, but still solid feeling, and a white-yellow, pee-in-snow color is dead fiberglass, and you can easily pick at it with a tool. This dead fiberglass is at the point of contact of a collision (we guess), or where the weakened fiberglass was exposed to water, and over time soaked it up and became delaminated.
We have also discovered (sympathy letters accepted) that the area above the keel joint acts like a cup and holds water. The fiberglass in that area may have been weakened at some point, as the water soaked all the way through the 2 inches of fiberglass and was visibly damp on the outside, after removing the gel coat in that area. We are now removing the gelcoat in ANY area that looks even slightly suspicious to fully estimate the damage. The fiberglass expert was apparently not by nature an optimistic guy, and recommended we cut up the boat and put it in the dumpster. But upon further questioning that appears to be his recommendation for ANY boat, and so we took it with a grain of salt. It is, however, obvious that we have some serious work to do. We are opting for fiberglassing as opposed to epoxy, cost being an issue.
It's our opinion that the boat would not be this bad if all those dings and scratches had been properly cared for when they occurred. they were left to their own unfortunately, and what was once a ding soaked up a little water each season and started to delaminate. We would have discovered little of this if I had not insisted we remove the gelcoat in certain areas, and I recommend that if you are even faintly suspicious, you investigate further.
Also, you mentioned a core in your fiberglass-we don't have a core, it's just solid fiberglass. Thick on the topsides, but thinner about a foot below the waterline--a "soft belly".
The good news is that our deck is in remakably good condition, no stress cracks or delam. You mentioned replacing some of the wood with mahogany--I recommend against it if it will get any weather, as it will not hold up nearly as well as teak, and it is also much softer and will not wear well.

darenius@aol.com

[Jessica]

Jessica - Sounds like we should take your deck and my hull and make one new boat. Your hull problems sound serious, but I would suggest you get a second opinion on the condition of the fiberglass. I'm no expert, but ..... Is fiberglass less expensive than epoxy? I haven't priced fiberglass. It sounds like you are planning to put a new layer or two of laminate over the existing fiberglass. Correct? Have you read anything about how to do that? Advice from friends?
The delamination I referred to in my boat is on the deck, not the hull as you indicated. There is a core in the deck. I've almost completed sanding and fairing the decks in preparation for primer. The delamination is about 4 sq. ft on the aft deck and it's taken over 2 qts of epoxy to fill the void left by the rotted core. Thank you for the idea on how to find voids in the hull/deck joint. It worked. I appreciate your comments about mahogany vs teak. The trim around the companionway is mahogany, so is the bulkhead. The coamings are also mahogany. Sliding hatch and cockpit seats are teak as is toe rail. Diversity. Do you know anything about how to fix a crack in veneer? Looking to the future, I'm going to need some brass deck fittings - cleats, jib track, chocks, traveler. Any ideas on where to look? Most of the retail outlets in Tampa offer only "the new stuff". Older style brass hardware has not exactly jumped off the shelf into my shopping basket. Thanks for your help, back to the sander tomorrow. Rick

Rick,
We have the Spartan catalog and can get the address if you like (I don't have it on me)--they have good stuff, for a price. Do you have a motor mount? We spent a lot of time combing some "used marine goods" stores, there are a couple here in New England. Thing is, most of the items are not any less expensive, even though they are used. I know there is a place down in Florida like that, as a friend has told me, I can also find out details (sorry, not being very specific today).
Yes, I do know about fixing veneer, if you have not solved that yet. First, assess the problem: Is the crack just in the veneer? Can you still use the veneer, or is enough lost or warped so that you will need to replace it? Sometimes it is easiest to just fill the void with filler, varnish the sucker, and live with it. You can disguise discoloration with a brown marker. If the crack does not lie flat and the veneer is still in good shape, you can pry up the edges (carefully!), squoosh wood glue in, and clamp the piece between two flat boards--use wax paper! though when clamping, so as not to glue your piece to something it shouldn't be lued to. If you need to remove the veneer--if it is warped, or some of it is missing, take a razor blade and cut out the crack and the veneer in a diamond shape if the crack does not extend to the edge of the backing, a wedge shape if it reaches one edge (the point where the crack starts and getting wider towards the edge on either side of the crack) and a strip if it extends through the whole piece. Take a piece of veneer, or the whole panel if you can, to the wood store(a hardwood store should have veneer, but also furniture makers etc) and find a matching piece. Remember that varnishing or finishing will darken it, also you can cheat and stain it or whatever--don't worry too much, as the wood will also darken naturally and blend in over time. Cut the new veneer to match the pattern you cut out, smear both glueside pieces with glue leaving NO ungluey wood, clamp between two flat boards and leave for a day or two. It's best to clamp, and apply good even pressure, but also just putting cinderblocks or something on top will do. If youwant to invest some money in glue, get soemthing called "Gorilla Glue", as it holds up much better in marine environments. Remember the wax paper!, and scrape off excess glue& paper with razor, sand and finish.
Fiberglass resin is much less expensive than epoxy or vinylester, but also less water resistant. We are not sure what to do--is it worth investing the $$? As the fiberglass guy said, well you can put diamonds in the side of the hull, sure, it'll be stronger, but is it worth it?



jmorton@ensr.com

[Ferd Moyse III]

Rick & Jessica...I fear I have not been checking this message board regularly as I thought we'd communicate by regular e-mail....but I'll check more often now! Jessica, I'm awfully sorry to hear of your fiberglass problems. My consolations! I do hope you go ahead a fix it "right" (whatever THAT is...I certainly don't know) and I'm sure you will. I'm under the impression that the hull is a pretty important part of most boats! <g> Rick, re the toe rail, I did the following: I had 50' of teak milled to 3/8" x 3". I then ripped these slats into 1" and 2" slats (yes, I lost a little to the blade but you get the idea.)
the hull/deck "edge" of my boat was pretty badly chewed up (remember hurricane damage!) but solid. I installed the 2" strip by bedding it to the hull with screws on 8" centers, allowing 1" to rise above the deck. I then fastened the 1" strip to the inside of the 2"strip in like manner, screws on 8" centers with waterproof glue used in abundance. Oh yes, I caulked the 2" strip at the deck before installing the 1" strip. All screws will be bunged when I'm sure no further need to take them off. I eased the edges of this now 3/4 thick toe rail and it really looks nice with Cetol finish! I plan to add a third thickness of the 1" slat where the genoa track will go.
Anyway, I'm pretty pleased with the looks and functionality of this. I effectually have an "inverted L" which hides and waterproofs the hull/deck...and it looks great. Oh...I shall add a deck scupper draining into the cockpit drains through a "T" fitting....this when I find where the low spot is after launching. By the way I have finished painting the topside (Hattaras off-white) and the hull(dark green) and she looks great with a red bootstripe and black antifouling! Re BRONZE FITTINGS: I lucked into a pair of old bronze Merriman winches for $125/pr...one size up from the single winch I had, so now I have two neat winches and a great paperweight! I also was missing the winch stand....Defender sells that for $49.95 if you need! I STILL need the old style outboard bracket. I have the deck fitting. Oh...I have teak hatch cover on a lazerette compartment that is quite attractive...but my cockpit seats are fiberglass not teak .
Sorry this so long. I'll stop for now. Good luck you two. I'll check back here more regularly! Ferd



seawolf@tecinfo.com

[Jessica]

Ferd,
Thanks for the toe rail description, I am contemplating something like that...when we can't take anymore fiberglass woes, we start planning "fun" things, like replacing toe rails..Weather here in New England is still not conducive for working with resins, so we are waiting for the sun. As for the o.b. motor bracket, checkout Lee Hodsdon's recent post on Handy Boat in Falmouth ME. It's the original, and we got our bracket there, for less than the Spartan bracket. It has worked well with our 4 hp longshaft.



jmorton@ensr.com

[Rick Parish]

Ferd, thanks for your description of how you did your toe rail. Slick - you got a toe rail and rub rail all in one. Question - with 3/8 thick teak was it difficult to make the wood bend to the shape of the hull? I'm planning a 1" high by 7/8" wide toe rail, so I'm concerned about how hard it will be to bend the wood to conform to the rail and the risk of cracking or splitting the teak. Any comments? I also note you screwed your new toe rail to the hull/deck instead of using bolts. My original rail was screwed, they were in great shape when I removed them. I was thinking of replacing them with bolts, but I'm not sure it's worth it for a daysailer. Regarding your description of the paint on your boat, did you use Interlux Brightside? I ask because they have a Hatteras off-white. I was thinking of using a one part polyurethane. I have been sanding and fairing the deck for 7 days now (not all in a row !) and about done. The hull needs about 3-4 days sanding and prep. Then I'm ready for primers. I would like to hear what experience you had with the paint system you chose. Talk to you again soon.

Rick & Jessica...I fear I have not been checking this message board regularly as I thought we'd communicate by regular e-mail....but I'll check more often now! Jessica, I'm awfully sorry to hear of your fiberglass problems. My consolations! I do hope you go ahead a fix it "right" (whatever THAT is...I certainly don't know) and I'm sure you will. I'm under the impression that the hull is a pretty important part of most boats! <g> Rick, re the toe rail, I did the following: I had 50' of teak milled to 3/8" x 3". I then ripped these slats into 1" and 2" slats (yes, I lost a little to the blade but you get the idea.)
the hull/deck "edge" of my boat was pretty badly chewed up (remember hurricane damage!) but solid. I installed the 2" strip by bedding it to the hull with screws on 8" centers, allowing 1" to rise above the deck. I then fastened the 1" strip to the inside of the 2"strip in like manner, screws on 8" centers with waterproof glue used in abundance. Oh yes, I caulked the 2" strip at the deck before installing the 1" strip. All screws will be bunged when I'm sure no further need to take them off. I eased the edges of this now 3/4 thick toe rail and it really looks nice with Cetol finish! I plan to add a third thickness of the 1" slat where the genoa track will go.
Anyway, I'm pretty pleased with the looks and functionality of this. I effectually have an "inverted L" which hides and waterproofs the hull/deck...and it looks great. Oh...I shall add a deck scupper draining into the cockpit drains through a "T" fitting....this when I find where the low spot is after launching. By the way I have finished painting the topside (Hattaras off-white) and the hull(dark green) and she looks great with a red bootstripe and black antifouling! Re BRONZE FITTINGS: I lucked into a pair of old bronze Merriman winches for $125/pr...one size up from the single winch I had, so now I have two neat winches and a great paperweight! I also was missing the winch stand....Defender sells that for $49.95 if you need! I STILL need the old style outboard bracket. I have the deck fitting. Oh...I have teak hatch cover on a lazerette compartment that is quite attractive...but my cockpit seats are fiberglass not teak .
Sorry this so long. I'll stop for now. Good luck you two. I'll check back here more regularly! Ferd

parish6@ibm.net