Engine alignment, mounts and surveys

[Warren Kaplan]

This is more of a poll than anything else I guess. I've posted before about having alignment problems that I will be taking care of pretty soon. In the interim, I have been doing ALOT of reading about engine alignment and engine mounts from pretty reliable sources. All of them say that alignment problems are very common. When you realize that fiberglass boats bend, are subject to pounding waves, are subject to different stresses on the prop shaft and that engine mounts, especially if they are rubber will dry out and deteriorate and therefore "fail" or not hold the engine position, it isn't surprising that this is common. But how many of us "routinely" check for engine and shaft alignment? How often? I'd also like to know how many of you have had serious engine alignment problems in the past and how often you expect to have alignment adjusted. Every year? 3 years? etc.
One other thing that I'd like to ask. My brother-in-law is in to big very fast power boats. Not my cup of tea but he is a hell of a boatman and he knows what he is doing and what he is talking about. He's been boating for years and he actually designed alot of the boats he's had. Every year, when his boat is pulled at the end of the season, he has it professionally surveyed. Every year! He told me its worth every penny. When I had my boat surveyed last year it was $12 a foot or $324 for a CD27. Not alot of money in the scheme of things and for what it may save you in major disaster repairs avoided. Do any of you routinely (every year? every other year?) have your boats professionally surveryed?
Thanks.
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non



Setsail728@aol.com

[Larry DeMers]

Warren,

Never and never. There. heh.-kidding.
I actually use my senses to gauge whether we have an alignment problem..With my eyes; when working on the engine I watch the rotation of the shaft, and see if there is more than one circle that the coupler describes as it rotates. You will see it if has a problem. With my touch; I look for vibrations due to the misalignment. I have also used a depth gauge a few years back, which was set up to see how out of column the shaft was. I had a 1mm oscillation, which I figured to be fine..and there has been no apparent wear on the Cutless bearing. So I believe that our shaft is fine. One thing..with a boat up on a cradle for some time, the hull will distort somewhat. I suspect that you should make sure that a week or more has passed since launching, before any alignment test is performed.

As far as having someone conduct a survey every year or two..what a way to share your money unnecessarily~!
By the time you have 1 year into your boat, you should know it far better than any surveyor could possibly know it. Every minute I am aboard the boat, my eye is continually looking and comparing what I see to what it ought to be. When sailing or running the engine, I pay attention to the sounds, virations and smells, and catalog them and compare them continually to past experiences aboard this and other boats.
Part of the pleasure of sailing is the total immersion in the experience that we are participating in. That leads to your acting like a surveyor in effect, if you pay attention to the little things around you. At anchor, before calling ti a day, I like to walk the deck, looking up and down and again comparing what you see to what you normally see. I am amazed at what I have caught out of sorts by doing this. The gooseneck on our boom was ready to drop it's castellated lock nut off the screw that pins the boom to the gooseneck. Simply feeling the fitting with my hand while attaching the sheet for our riding sail caught that discontinuity in time to retighten the nut, which revealed that the nuts nylon insert was totally gone and so the nut was not locking itself down as it first did when new.
In 15,000 miles, we have never had a failure of any kind (other than the engines instrument panel losing electricity due to a loose fitting at the inline fuse). We have replace d several items however, discovered by being our own surveyor..all the time we are aboard.

Frankly, I remain totally unimpressed by the effectiveness of using a surveyor. Especiallly after purchase. I would do a prepurchase survey on my own boat selection if that would be accepted by the banks and insurance company's. But alas, it was not. The guy got paid $350 and missed a rotted out cockpit floor! Duh..but then, so did I. heh..

So, enough ramblings..time to work on the boat~! Launch in two weeks!

See you all next Tuesday.

Cheers, Brats and Beers (it's the weekend!~),

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Preping for launch on Lake Superior~~~

This is more of a poll than anything else I guess. I've posted before about having alignment problems that I will be taking care of pretty soon. In the interim, I have been doing ALOT of reading about engine alignment and engine mounts from pretty reliable sources. All of them say that alignment problems are very common. When you realize that fiberglass boats bend, are subject to pounding waves, are subject to different stresses on the prop shaft and that engine mounts, especially if they are rubber will dry out and deteriorate and therefore "fail" or not hold the engine position, it isn't surprising that this is common. But how many of us "routinely" check for engine and shaft alignment? How often? I'd also like to know how many of you have had serious engine alignment problems in the past and how often you expect to have alignment adjusted. Every year? 3 years? etc.
One other thing that I'd like to ask. My brother-in-law is in to big very fast power boats. Not my cup of tea but he is a hell of a boatman and he knows what he is doing and what he is talking about. He's been boating for years and he actually designed alot of the boats he's had. Every year, when his boat is pulled at the end of the season, he has it professionally surveyed. Every year! He told me its worth every penny. When I had my boat surveyed last year it was $12 a foot or $324 for a CD27. Not alot of money in the scheme of things and for what it may save you in major disaster repairs avoided. Do any of you routinely (every year? every other year?) have your boats professionally surveryed?
Thanks.
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non

demers@sgi.com

[Don Sargeant]

Wise words, Larry.

The guy who surveyed COQUINA missed a mess of frozen seacocks, bone-dry winches, completely shot sails, a broken alternator bracket and identified a bimini as a dodger. But in the haste of acquisition, I didn't check the work I was paying for. I would never buy a boat without a survey (unless I was buying a wreck to reconstruct), but see no need to have a boat surveyed that you've been using all along.

Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
CD25D #189
Greenwich Cove

Warren,

Never and never. There. heh.-kidding.
I actually use my senses to gauge whether we have an alignment problem..With my eyes; when working on the engine I watch the rotation of the shaft, and see if there is more than one circle that the coupler describes as it rotates. You will see it if has a problem. With my touch; I look for vibrations due to the misalignment. I have also used a depth gauge a few years back, which was set up to see how out of column the shaft was. I had a 1mm oscillation, which I figured to be fine..and there has been no apparent wear on the Cutless bearing. So I believe that our shaft is fine. One thing..with a boat up on a cradle for some time, the hull will distort somewhat. I suspect that you should make sure that a week or more has passed since launching, before any alignment test is performed.

As far as having someone conduct a survey every year or two..what a way to share your money unnecessarily~!
By the time you have 1 year into your boat, you should know it far better than any surveyor could possibly know it. Every minute I am aboard the boat, my eye is continually looking and comparing what I see to what it ought to be. When sailing or running the engine, I pay attention to the sounds, virations and smells, and catalog them and compare them continually to past experiences aboard this and other boats.
Part of the pleasure of sailing is the total immersion in the experience that we are participating in. That leads to your acting like a surveyor in effect, if you pay attention to the little things around you. At anchor, before calling ti a day, I like to walk the deck, looking up and down and again comparing what you see to what you normally see. I am amazed at what I have caught out of sorts by doing this. The gooseneck on our boom was ready to drop it's castellated lock nut off the screw that pins the boom to the gooseneck. Simply feeling the fitting with my hand while attaching the sheet for our riding sail caught that discontinuity in time to retighten the nut, which revealed that the nuts nylon insert was totally gone and so the nut was not locking itself down as it first did when new.
In 15,000 miles, we have never had a failure of any kind (other than the engines instrument panel losing electricity due to a loose fitting at the inline fuse). We have replace d several items however, discovered by being our own surveyor..all the time we are aboard.

Frankly, I remain totally unimpressed by the effectiveness of using a surveyor. Especiallly after purchase. I would do a prepurchase survey on my own boat selection if that would be accepted by the banks and insurance company's. But alas, it was not. The guy got paid $350 and missed a rotted out cockpit floor! Duh..but then, so did I. heh..

So, enough ramblings..time to work on the boat~! Launch in two weeks!

See you all next Tuesday.

Cheers, Brats and Beers (it's the weekend!~),

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Preping for launch on Lake Superior~~~

This is more of a poll than anything else I guess. I've posted before about having alignment problems that I will be taking care of pretty soon. In the interim, I have been doing ALOT of reading about engine alignment and engine mounts from pretty reliable sources. All of them say that alignment problems are very common. When you realize that fiberglass boats bend, are subject to pounding waves, are subject to different stresses on the prop shaft and that engine mounts, especially if they are rubber will dry out and deteriorate and therefore "fail" or not hold the engine position, it isn't surprising that this is common. But how many of us "routinely" check for engine and shaft alignment? How often? I'd also like to know how many of you have had serious engine alignment problems in the past and how often you expect to have alignment adjusted. Every year? 3 years? etc.
One other thing that I'd like to ask. My brother-in-law is in to big very fast power boats. Not my cup of tea but he is a hell of a boatman and he knows what he is doing and what he is talking about. He's been boating for years and he actually designed alot of the boats he's had. Every year, when his boat is pulled at the end of the season, he has it professionally surveyed. Every year! He told me its worth every penny. When I had my boat surveyed last year it was $12 a foot or $324 for a CD27. Not alot of money in the scheme of things and for what it may save you in major disaster repairs avoided. Do any of you routinely (every year? every other year?) have your boats professionally surveryed?
Thanks.
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non

[Don Sargeant]

Wise words, Larry.

The guy who surveyed COQUINA missed a mess of frozen seacocks, bone-dry winches, completely shot sails, a broken alternator bracket and identified a bimini as a dodger. But in the haste of acquisition, I didn't check the work I was paying for. I would never buy a boat without a survey (unless I was buying a wreck to reconstruct), but see no need to have a boat surveyed that you've been using all along. I too walk the deck and use Mario Curati's excellent Palm Pilot program to make notes.

Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
CD25D #189
Greenwich Cove

Warren,

Never and never. There. heh.-kidding.
I actually use my senses to gauge whether we have an alignment problem..With my eyes; when working on the engine I watch the rotation of the shaft, and see if there is more than one circle that the coupler describes as it rotates. You will see it if has a problem. With my touch; I look for vibrations due to the misalignment. I have also used a depth gauge a few years back, which was set up to see how out of column the shaft was. I had a 1mm oscillation, which I figured to be fine..and there has been no apparent wear on the Cutless bearing. So I believe that our shaft is fine. One thing..with a boat up on a cradle for some time, the hull will distort somewhat. I suspect that you should make sure that a week or more has passed since launching, before any alignment test is performed.

As far as having someone conduct a survey every year or two..what a way to share your money unnecessarily~!
By the time you have 1 year into your boat, you should know it far better than any surveyor could possibly know it. Every minute I am aboard the boat, my eye is continually looking and comparing what I see to what it ought to be. When sailing or running the engine, I pay attention to the sounds, virations and smells, and catalog them and compare them continually to past experiences aboard this and other boats.
Part of the pleasure of sailing is the total immersion in the experience that we are participating in. That leads to your acting like a surveyor in effect, if you pay attention to the little things around you. At anchor, before calling ti a day, I like to walk the deck, looking up and down and again comparing what you see to what you normally see. I am amazed at what I have caught out of sorts by doing this. The gooseneck on our boom was ready to drop it's castellated lock nut off the screw that pins the boom to the gooseneck. Simply feeling the fitting with my hand while attaching the sheet for our riding sail caught that discontinuity in time to retighten the nut, which revealed that the nuts nylon insert was totally gone and so the nut was not locking itself down as it first did when new.
In 15,000 miles, we have never had a failure of any kind (other than the engines instrument panel losing electricity due to a loose fitting at the inline fuse). We have replace d several items however, discovered by being our own surveyor..all the time we are aboard.

Frankly, I remain totally unimpressed by the effectiveness of using a surveyor. Especiallly after purchase. I would do a prepurchase survey on my own boat selection if that would be accepted by the banks and insurance company's. But alas, it was not. The guy got paid $350 and missed a rotted out cockpit floor! Duh..but then, so did I. heh..

So, enough ramblings..time to work on the boat~! Launch in two weeks!

See you all next Tuesday.

Cheers, Brats and Beers (it's the weekend!~),

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Preping for launch on Lake Superior~~~

This is more of a poll than anything else I guess. I've posted before about having alignment problems that I will be taking care of pretty soon. In the interim, I have been doing ALOT of reading about engine alignment and engine mounts from pretty reliable sources. All of them say that alignment problems are very common. When you realize that fiberglass boats bend, are subject to pounding waves, are subject to different stresses on the prop shaft and that engine mounts, especially if they are rubber will dry out and deteriorate and therefore "fail" or not hold the engine position, it isn't surprising that this is common. But how many of us "routinely" check for engine and shaft alignment? How often? I'd also like to know how many of you have had serious engine alignment problems in the past and how often you expect to have alignment adjusted. Every year? 3 years? etc.
One other thing that I'd like to ask. My brother-in-law is in to big very fast power boats. Not my cup of tea but he is a hell of a boatman and he knows what he is doing and what he is talking about. He's been boating for years and he actually designed alot of the boats he's had. Every year, when his boat is pulled at the end of the season, he has it professionally surveyed. Every year! He told me its worth every penny. When I had my boat surveyed last year it was $12 a foot or $324 for a CD27. Not alot of money in the scheme of things and for what it may save you in major disaster repairs avoided. Do any of you routinely (every year? every other year?) have your boats professionally surveryed?
Thanks.
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non

[Mike Quinlan]

I don't even want to tell you how I feel about the "Marine survey hussle" but like Mr. DeMers and Mr Sargent I feel that after a year of ownership you should be more familar with your own boat than anyone.
As far as engine alinement trouble, I have found most of the problem to be the rubber mounts getting some age on them. I now replace them about every three years. I also have installed a grease fitting on the stuffing box and haven't had to adjust it in three years. This has been very good for the cutless bearing too.
Mike Q.



mikieq@erols.com

[Warren Kaplan]

I know my boat better than anyone now but I suppose not being as experienced as some of you, I may have blind spots. What I mean is that I can recognize when things are right or wrong on my boat if I know what I'm looking for. There have been instances in the past when someone pointed out an area that needed repair and I didn't know it, even though it was right in front of my face. The reason, I didn't know what to look for so I did know there was a problem. I know to inspect that area now and with experience, I'll miss less and less. But until I have the ability to really survey my boat thoroughly and miss nothing, I thought the services of a FIRST CLASS surveyor might be a good idea. Now finding a first class surveyor is a different kettle of fish altogether. I agree that a survey by a mediocre or just plain lousy surveyor is worst than having no survey at all because a false sense of security might be gained from a glowing survey that really missed many defects. But I hear what you all are saying and I'm spending alot of time reading about different aspects of boat maintenance so that I can do a better job of "surveying" Sine Qua Non. Thanks for your opinions.
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non



Setsail728@aol.com

[Don Sargeant]

Mike,
How'd ya do that? I had a grease fitting on the log on my folkboat and didn't have to touch the cutlass for 25 years and IT DIDN'T LEAK A DROP! Mine was fed by a "grease cup" -- a cup with a very finely threaded cover which, when turned down, forced grease through a tube to the cutlass. The cup was mounted in the seat locker for easy access.
Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
etc.

I don't even want to tell you how I feel about the "Marine survey hussle" but like Mr. DeMers and Mr Sargent I feel that after a year of ownership you should be more familar with your own boat than anyone.
As far as engine alinement trouble, I have found most of the problem to be the rubber mounts getting some age on them. I now replace them about every three years. I also have installed a grease fitting on the stuffing box and haven't had to adjust it in three years. This has been very good for the cutless bearing too.
Mike Q.

[Al Levesque]

This is more of a poll than anything else I guess. I've posted before about having alignment problems that I will be taking care of pretty soon. In the interim, I have been doing ALOT of reading about engine alignment and engine mounts from pretty reliable sources. All of them say that alignment problems are very common....

When we first bought our CD33, we relied on the best yard we know about to get her ready in the spring. We quickly found that even they are not in a position to monitor the boat as well as needed. A surveyor would not be any better.

A couple years ago, we had the forward mount fail and this resulted in a broken shaft. I still remember holding my breath while I watched to see if the shaft would spin all the way out of the stuffing box before I could get there to block the hole. (The prop didn't get past the rudder and visegrips were able to pull it back in.)

We were down the coast and employed a well established and reputable yard to replace the mount and install a new shaft. Before leaving with the new shaft, I checked the mounts and found one had not been fastened to the engine. After they finished again, I uncoupled the shaft and found it so far out of alignment that I couldn't get the shaft to mate with the transmission without using a pry bar. I learned to realign it myself.

Last year I checked all mounts personally and found one broken. I don't know if a yard would have found it.

This year I uncoupled the shaft for storage and will check for alignment before using the engine. I have done a quick check by sliding the coupling into and out of place on land and again after launch and have not seen any shift. When checking against the play in the shaft, they mate at about the mid point of the shaft play.

I know that when things fail, I will be there and suffer the consequences. The yard mechanic won't be there, neither will a surveyor. I also know that it is difficult to keep loosening and adjusting mounts just to get that last couple of thousandths out of the misalignment and that a mechanic will never be as persistent (scared?) as I would be.

The same is true of all other systems in the boat and I believe that I need to do it myself unless I can check it out thoroughly after someone else has done it.

Al



albertlevesque@cove.com

[john]

I know my boat better than anyone now but I suppose not being as experienced as some of you, I may have blind spots. What I mean is that I can recognize when things are right or wrong on my boat if I know what I'm looking for. There have been instances in the past when someone pointed out an area that needed repair and I didn't know it, even though it was right in front of my face. The reason, I didn't know what to look for so I did know there was a problem. I know to inspect that area now and with experience, I'll miss less and less. But until I have the ability to really survey my boat thoroughly and miss nothing, I thought the services of a FIRST CLASS surveyor might be a good idea. Now finding a first class surveyor is a different kettle of fish altogether. I agree that a survey by a mediocre or just plain lousy surveyor is worst than having no survey at all because a false sense of security might be gained from a glowing survey that really missed many defects. But I hear what you all are saying and I'm spending alot of time reading about different aspects of boat maintenance so that I can do a better job of "surveying" Sine Qua Non. Thanks for your opinions.
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non

A note on surveyors. Most of the ones I've used are not sailors so they don't know sail boats and I had one that missed a crack in the keel behind the ballast that you could see from the inside and outside and the same boat had a cracked rudder. Remember you are the hiring manager & need to interview a surveyor before hiring them. John CD31 #18



redzeplin@yahoo.com