Is a wind vane wort the price

[bfb]

I been sailing with my friend for 11 years he just had mechanical wind vane. Three years ago I bought a CD30C and during mid day it is hard to see the wind vane on sunny days. I am thinking of installing a Raymarine st60 with Raymarine R28170 transducer.
I would be using pre-owned equipment and the cost still would be around $1500.00
My question is I never used one of them are that handy to have.
Transducer $245
Ts60. $200
Take the mast down to run wire and mount transducer. $1050.00
Or just put two of those shroud wind vanes.
Also I have a Top climber, anyone ran the wire with mast up?
Or spend the money on updating my sails.
Thank You
Billy

[Jerry Hammernik]

I have a Windex and that works faithfully. If the sun is making it hard to see I just go by telltales. I installed a Raymarine ST70 with the wireless wind indicator. I used it for the first summer and it worked well. I kinda like it, but I had a warranty issue last spring and I returned it for service. They got it fixed quickly but by the time it arrived I had launched. Didn't feel like going up the mast so I didn't use it all season. Didn't really find the lack of it much of a big deal. I've been sailing for a long time and can estimate wind speed pretty well. If I had to choose between the wind indicator and sails. I'd spend the money on sails.

[bfb]

I Meant to put it under discussion
Sorry
Thank you for the response will take your advice
Billy

[John Stone]

I don't have any mechanical wind indicators of any kind. I use my eyes and my skin, tell tails on the sails, and the hair on my neck. Granted, I have been sailing all my life. I can always tell what the wind is doing. A wind indicator on the top of my mast would, in a very narrow scenario, assist me. Might save me a couple seconds in very light practically no wind conditions...but only if I am looking at it. I'm not even talking about electric wind instrumentation.

None of this is to suggest you should not have either a simple mast top wind vane or an electronic one. Do what makes you enjoy sailing. But, you might just practice it more. Even after all these years sailing I am always looking at the wind ripples on the water. And at flags ashore and paying attention to the signals the wind indicates on my body or boat. I want to always know where the wind is blowing from and how fast.

Many people like wind instruments. Who am I to say they are wrong? Your boat, your money your way. But for me it would be a big waste of money and also adds to complications on the boat. And another thing--instrumentation is essentially adding a layer between you and the environment. Many people, maybe even most are fine with that. I am not. For me it defeats the whole reason for why I sail.

If you truly feel you are having a hard time determining wind direction/speed and are not making progress then spend your money accordingly. No right or wrong answer here as long as you're happy with the end result.

[robwm]

My 22 came with a wind vane already mounted on the mast. Truthfully I don't find it particularly useful and instead rely on the "seat of the pants" indicators that John has enumerated so thoroughly (in fact keeping track of and using those indicators is one of the things that makes sailing so enjoyable for me). If I may though, I would add to John's list tell-tales on the shrouds as being particularly useful for me. Should my wind vane break at some point I am not likely to replace it. Just some additional food for thought .....

[wikakaru]

At first I thought the original poster's question was about wind vane self-steering, but after re-reading and seeing the other posts, the discussion appears to be about wind direction indicators like the Davis Windex vs electronic wind indicators.

Others have said that it is better to learn how to tell wind direction and speed from direct observation of the water, and while that is an essential skill to develop, and I encourage everyone to do so, there are reasons that you might also want both a Windex and an electronic indicator.

I find the Windex-type indicator especially helpful when trying to keep the apparent wind angle around 25-30 degrees off of dead-astern. When running wing-and-wing it is an easy way to see how much farther you can head up before the poled-out headsail backwinds; when broad reaching, it is easy to see how much farther you can head off before the headsail is blanketed by the mainsail. Admittedly, members of this forum are sailing Cape Dories, and many sailors with full keeled sailboats don't care so much about trying to eke the last tenth or hundredth of a knot of boat speed out of their boats. But if you want to make the most of your off-the-wind sailing, a Windex is certainly a helpful tool.

As to the electronic indicators, they tend to be especially useful in several cases.

First, if you are sailing offshore in hot, tropical climates, you probably want a dodger to keep the spray out of the companionway and a bimini to keep the sun off your head. Maybe you have solar panels fitted over your cockpit. All of these things can block the view of the masthead and sails, and many sailors with a covered cockpit find it too troublesome to stick their head outside of the canvas every few minutes (or seconds, depending on how gung-ho for speed you are). As with the Windex, the AWI can be especially helpful when trying to get the most out of the boat going downwind.

Second, if you interface your wind instruments with a GPS, you can get true wind speed and direction calculated for you. Sure, it is possible to observe true wind direction and speed with a compass and by studying the effects of the wind on the water (a la the Beaufort Scale), but even for experienced sailors who can do this easily by day, it is still difficult to do at night. At the very least you will have to shine a light on the water and risk ruining your night vision.

Third, many modern instruments can record the wind readings and produce a graph of wind speed and direction over time. While you could certainly try to remember these things and/or frequently record them in the ship's log, it's much easier to have the electronics do it for you. When you are in the middle of an offshore passage and you are sleep-deprived, it is especially nice to look at that little graph and know at a glance that, for example, the wind has been steadily rising or falling and maybe it's time to reef or unreef, or that the wind has been backing or veering and maybe it's time to tack or gybe to make better time towards your destination. The recording feature is especially helpful at the change of watch, when the oncoming crew has no idea what has been happening while they were asleep and can instantly see the trend.

I will leave out the discussion of using electronic wind data to input to an autopilot for steering the boat based on the wind, because the wind vane vs autopilot discussion is a whole different matter.

I personally have sailed boats with all kinds of instrumentation, from no indicators at all (which I don't recommend), to just telltales on the sails, to apparent wind electronics, to true wind electronics, and to wind recording and graphing electronics. They all have their place. While it is true as many have said that no one needs a Windex or an electronic wind indicator, they can be nice to have if you have the money and space for them and the willingness to learn how to use them properly.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[John Stone]

At first I thought the original poster's question was about wind vane self-steering, but after re-reading and seeing the other posts, the discussion appears to be about wind direction indicators like the Davis Windex vs electronic wind indicators.

Others have said that it is better to learn how to tell wind direction and speed from direct observation of the water, and while that is an essential skill to develop, and I encourage everyone to do so, there are reasons that you might also want both a Windex and an electronic indicator.

I find the Windex-type indicator especially helpful when trying to keep the apparent wind angle around 25-30 degrees off of dead-astern. When running wing-and-wing it is an easy way to see how much farther you can head up before the poled-out headsail backwinds; when broad reaching, it is easy to see how much farther you can head off before the headsail is blanketed by the mainsail. Admittedly, members of this forum are sailing Cape Dories, and many sailors with full keeled sailboats don't care so much about trying to eke the last tenth or hundredth of a knot of boat speed out of their boats. But if you want to make the most of your off-the-wind sailing, a Windex is certainly a helpful tool.

As to the electronic indicators, they tend to be especially useful in several cases.

First, if you are sailing offshore in hot, tropical climates, you probably want a dodger to keep the spray out of the companionway and a bimini to keep the sun off your head. Maybe you have solar panels fitted over your cockpit. All of these things can block the view of the masthead and sails, and many sailors with a covered cockpit find it too troublesome to stick their head outside of the canvas every few minutes (or seconds, depending on how gung-ho for speed you are). As with the Windex, the AWI can be especially helpful when trying to get the most out of the boat going downwind.

Second, if you interface your wind instruments with a GPS, you can get true wind speed and direction calculated for you. Sure, it is possible to observe true wind direction and speed with a compass and by studying the effects of the wind on the water (a la the Beaufort Scale), but even for experienced sailors who can do this easily by day, it is still difficult to do at night. At the very least you will have to shine a light on the water and risk ruining your night vision.

Third, many modern instruments can record the wind readings and produce a graph of wind speed and direction over time. While you could certainly try to remember these things and/or frequently record them in the ship's log, it's much easier to have the electronics do it for you. When you are in the middle of an offshore passage and you are sleep-deprived, it is especially nice to look at that little graph and know at a glance that, for example, the wind has been steadily rising or falling and maybe it's time to reef or unreef, or that the wind has been backing or veering and maybe it's time to tack or gybe to make better time towards your destination. The recording feature is especially helpful at the change of watch, when the oncoming crew has no idea what has been happening while they were asleep and can instantly see the trend.

I will leave out the discussion of using electronic wind data to input to an autopilot for steering the boat based on the wind, because the wind vane vs autopilot discussion is a whole different matter.

I personally have sailed boats with all kinds of instrumentation, from no indicators at all (which I don't recommend), to just telltales on the sails, to apparent wind electronics, to true wind electronics, and to wind recording and graphing electronics. They all have their place. While it is true as many have said that no one needs a Windex or an electronic wind indicator, they can be nice to have if you have the money and space for them and the willingness to learn how to use them properly.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

Wait what? I'm throwing a flag on this Jim (in the friendliest manner and with a big grin). While everything you say is technically true, is this the same Jim that lamented my installing an engine in the Far Reach while championing the beauty of simple sailing? And, now describing the usefulness of installing expensive vulnerable electronic wind gadgets???

The OP did not mention if he had a dodger/bimini. Your excellent explanation of the ill effects of overhead canvas is exactly why I don't have any on the FR.

Your comment about knowing the wind direction downwind is spot on. There is in fact a nylon streamer on the top of my Cape Horn windvane for that exact reason.

[wikakaru]

Wait what? I'm throwing a flag on this Jim (in the friendliest manner and with a big grin). While everything you say is technically true, is this the same Jim that lamented my installing an engine in the Far Reach while championing the beauty of simple sailing? And, now describing the usefulness of installing expensive vulnerable electronic wind gadgets???

The OP did not mention if he had a dodger/bimini. Your excellent explanation of the ill effects of overhead canvas is exactly why I don't have any on the FR.

Your comment about knowing the wind direction downwind is spot on. There is in fact a nylon streamer on the top of my Cape Horn windvane for that exact reason.

Whoa, a nylon streamer! Man, you need to change that to silk, or Egyptian cotton, or gingham, or horse hair, or whatever it was the old tars used. [Grin.]

I am a firm believer in using the right tool for the job. For my Typhoon and CD22, which both have no overhead canvas and are used primarily for day sailing or short cruises, direct observation, telltales on the sail, and a masthead Windex are the right answer. Since you have equipped Far Reach along similar lines in terms of no outside canvas and eschewing complex systems, the minimalist end of the scale of wind sensing options we are discussing is also right for you.

We both know that the majority of sailors don't share our simpler way of sailing, and have already cluttered their boats with bimini-top solar panels feeding big banks of batteries running energy-hungry appliances. For those who already have the infrastructure in place and don't mind spending the bucks, the fancy wind gadgets are a reasonable option. I won't be putting any such thing aboard Dory or Arietta, but I know from experience that under the right circumstances they can be quite helpful. I'm pretty sure the advice, "it's a personal choice" has appeared in more than one of your posts.

Certainly I lamented the installation of an engine on the Far Reach as the beginning of an inexorable slide towards the Dark Side. Pretty soon (if you're not careful) you'll wind up with a fully integrated, networked, WiFi'd boat with artificial intelligence and fully autonomous operation that will sail itself from NC to the VI for you. Or even worse...a power boat.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[John Stone]

Wait what? I'm throwing a flag on this Jim (in the friendliest manner and with a big grin). While everything you say is technically true, is this the same Jim that lamented my installing an engine in the Far Reach while championing the beauty of simple sailing? And, now describing the usefulness of installing expensive vulnerable electronic wind gadgets???

The OP did not mention if he had a dodger/bimini. Your excellent explanation of the ill effects of overhead canvas is exactly why I don't have any on the FR.

Your comment about knowing the wind direction downwind is spot on. There is in fact a nylon streamer on the top of my Cape Horn windvane for that exact reason.

Whoa, a nylon streamer! Man, you need to change that to silk, or Egyptian cotton, or gingham, or horse hair, or whatever it was the old tars used. [Grin.]

I am a firm believer in using the right tool for the job. For my Typhoon and CD22, which both have no overhead canvas and are used primarily for day sailing or short cruises, direct observation, telltales on the sail, and a masthead Windex are the right answer. Since you have equipped Far Reach along similar lines in terms of no outside canvas and eschewing complex systems, the minimalist end of the scale of wind sensing options we are discussing is also right for you.

We both know that the majority of sailors don't share our simpler way of sailing, and have already cluttered their boats with bimini-top solar panels feeding big banks of batteries running energy-hungry appliances. For those who already have the infrastructure in place and don't mind spending the bucks, the fancy wind gadgets are a reasonable option. I won't be putting any such thing aboard Dory or Arietta, but I know from experience that under the right circumstances they can be quite helpful. I'm pretty sure the advice, "it's a personal choice" has appeared in more than one of your posts.

Certainly I lamented the installation of an engine on the Far Reach as the beginning of an inexorable slide towards the Dark Side. Pretty soon (if you're not careful) you'll wind up with a fully integrated, networked, WiFi'd boat with artificial intelligence and fully autonomous operation that will sail itself from NC to the VI for you. Or even worse...a power boat.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

Hilarious!

[Carl Thunberg]

Wow, that really hurt. As someone who just bought a CD28 Cruiser, which is in fact a power boat . . .

As partial redemption, this is an addition to my fleet. I have no plans to get rid of my sailboat.

[jbenagh]

I recently got to crew on a trip from Virginia to Antigua where we made extensive use of both the wind powered steering and the autopilot with the wind gauge feature integrated. The wind powered steering was the German one and it worked great! The powered autopilot was the Raymarine one integrated with the ST70 wind instrument and it was also fantastic! The display is capable of presenting a ton of useful info, good for crew to report* to captain/navigator on a long offshore passage.
I don't have an exact log but I would guess we used each about 50% of the trip. And, yes, we used automated steering for about 100% of the trip.
If sailing, we tried to use the wind steering. It worked really well, although once we got in the Gulf Stream and offshore waves it took a bit of work to calibrate the users to the system. We did switch to the Raymarine at night oftentimes when there was no one to come on deck to help.
We preferred the wind steering over the Raymarine due to the lower power use. We drew about 80% of usable battery capacity/day just to run the freezer/radio/chartplotter/lights. And that was after solar and hydro vane and before the water maker. So we ran the engine about 2hrs every other day even when we had good wind and solar.
Where the Raymarine really scored was when motorsailing. We were trying to save every ounce of fuel but also outrunning some really terrible weather (as is pretty normal off the SE US in November). We burned a ton of fuel for a small boat but also tried to run the motor at a fuel-sipping RPM. We could set the Raymarine to keep a fixed angle to the wind, then motorsail, all the while making better VMG and getting the best boost from the sails that we could because once the motor was turning, even at low speed, the alternator could keep up with all the loads we desired.
We did perfect the method of getting the Raymarine to steer to the wind, then setting the wind powered steering and shutting off the Raymarine to save power. It took a few days but seemed to be a very sound method. By a few days out and some experience, I could even just use the wheel lock then adjust Hans (I did say the windvane was German, right?) without any drama, i.e. the off watch popping on deck urgently asking "do you need a hand?"
So I'm not recommending either one. Just saying maybe there ate two tools and each has its place. Maybe the choice is about how much power you can devote to this and then what degree of failure tolerance do you have.
FWIW on this trip the windvane failed several times non-catastrophically but then catastrophically about 2 days out from landfall. Simpler is not always better, maybe just easier to fix. Windvane failed on bolts and Lock Tite, maybe $50. The Raymarine repairs seem to start at $1000 (note this is when you have the $2000 autopilot and the $1500 wind instrument). Indeed, for the owner, leaving from Maine, the wind powered steering failed twice and the electronics failed once. Very small sample size, but the wind powered was possible to repair hundreds of miles from shore without a spare.
I was really happy to have both. On Christine C I have a Raymarine because the first year I owned her I did three long trips around Mass Bay and Gulf of Maine motoring and the windvane won't do that. When I do longer offshore trips, I'll definitely have a wind powered system. Until then, as long as I have a decent engine (for the fridge) and am close to shore (so I can restock, but we carry decent canned goods and some water) I'll stick with the Raymarine.
This off-season I plan to install an ST70 and incorporate it into my autopilot (in theory, very easy but there's software involved ) So maybe, that is my personal recommendation.
Jeff
* feel like the right watch change conversation is:
[FRESH CREW] how's it been?
[On DECK CREW] wind something, gusts something, waves something, squalls something
[On DECK CREW] boat is in great shape, nothing weird
[FRESH CREW] Enjoy the rest! Fresh hot water in bottle

[wikakaru]

Wow, that really hurt. As someone who just bought a CD28 Cruiser, which is in fact a power boat . . .

As partial redemption, this is an addition to my fleet. I have no plans to get rid of my sailboat.

Sorry Carl. You know I jest...mostly.

I've always thought that powerboats and sailboats are like cats and dogs. A long time ago I read somewhere that the body language for dogs that says "I want to play" is the same as the body language for cats that means "Stay away or we're going to fight". Neither can understand why the other seems to be acting like a jerk. The same is true for sailors and powerboaters. As a sailor, for example, I appreciate it when a powerboat passes to my stern so the wake from the pass doesn't stop my boat dead in the water; I understand that many powerboaters consider it polite to pass ahead so you don't run over and foul trolling lines that may stretch for hundreds of yards behind. Both are trying to be polite in their own way and can't understand why the other one seems to be acting like a jerk.

As a sailor who has converted to power, you implicitly understand the things that a sailor finds common courtesy that would never occur to a non-sailing powerboater.

The nicest cat I ever knew acted much like a dog, greeting every human happily when they showed up, heeling and following along as they walked, behaving more like a puppy than a cat. You, sir, are a cat with the heart of a dog (or a dog with the heart of a cat, if you prefer), a truly strange and wonderous beast.

Smooth sail...um...motoring,

Jim

[John Stone]

Wow, that really hurt. As someone who just bought a CD28 Cruiser, which is in fact a power boat . . .

As partial redemption, this is an addition to my fleet. I have no plans to get rid of my sailboat.

Sorry Carl. You know I jest...mostly.

I've always thought that powerboats and sailboats are like cats and dogs. A long time ago I read somewhere that the body language for dogs that says "I want to play" is the same as the body language for cats that means "Stay away or we're going to fight". Neither can understand why the other seems to be acting like a jerk. The same is true for sailors and powerboaters. As a sailor, for example, I appreciate it when a powerboat passes to my stern so the wake from the pass doesn't stop my boat dead in the water; I understand that many powerboaters consider it polite to pass ahead so you don't run over and foul trolling lines that may stretch for hundreds of yards behind. Both are trying to be polite in their own way and can't understand why the other one seems to be acting like a jerk.

As a sailor who has converted to power, you implicitly understand the things that a sailor finds common courtesy that would never occur to a non-sailing powerboater.

The nicest cat I ever knew acted much like a dog, greeting every human happily when they showed up, heeling and following along as they walked, behaving more like a puppy than a cat. You, sir, are a cat with the heart of a dog (or a dog with the heart of a cat, if you prefer), a truly strange and wonderous beast.

Smooth sail...um...motoring,

Jim

That may be the most charming and diplomatic apology I have ever read. We should all be so skilled. Bravo Zulu.

[wikakaru]

Bravo Zulu.

I made the mistake of first looking in the International Code of Signals, Page 31:
BZ - "Your magnetic bearing from me (or from vessel or position indicated) is… (at time indicated)."

Wait, what?

Ah, it's from the Allied Naval Signal Book, Page 1-7:
BZ - "Well Done".

Thanks!

Obviously I was never in the Navy.

--Jim

[John Stone]

Bravo Zulu.

I made the mistake of first looking in the International Code of Signals, Page 31:
BZ - "Your magnetic bearing from me (or from vessel or position indicated) is… (at time indicated)."

Wait, what?

Ah, it's from the Allied Naval Signal Book, Page 1-7:
BZ - "Well Done".

Thanks!

Obviously I was never in the Navy.

--Jim

I was never in the navy. But we use the term in the Marines too because we are a naval service. Not in the navy. We are in the Department of the Navy and fall under the authority of the Secretary of the Navy but not under the authority of the senior Navy officer called the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO).

Clear as mud? Just remember never say to a Marine "Oh you're part of the Navy." It would not go well for you. LOL.