25D vs. 27

[fritz3000g]

Hi there,

I'm getting a little closer to buying my dream boat. Couple of years out still, and still debating between the 27 and 25D (and a couple others).

I'd really like to be able to get by with a reasonable-sized tow vehicle, which seems possible with the 25D but less so with the 27. I understand the challenges with launching heavy boats and am prepared for them.

The one thing I'm unsure of is how fundamentally different the two boats are for moderate offshore passages (up to 10 days) other than just in cabin space? The comfort ratio of the 27 is about 30% better. It would be a little faster. Are those the main differences?

Jeremiah

[Sea Hunt Video]

Jeremiah:

I am sure others will soon add their thoughts. I was the caretaker of S/V Bali Ha'i (1982 CD 25D) for about 10 years.

For me (us), the significant difference was the marine head. The Admiral liked the comparative "spaciousness" and privacy of the marine head on the CD 25D with a cabin roof hatch to allow in fresh air. The head is essentially the V-berth area. The marine head area on the CD 27 is "tiny" to quote the Admiral. If memory serves, it is located on the port quarter just aft of the V berth with no direct air vent.

I was guided by the oft quoted and slightly changed maxim, "If The Admiral ain't happy, ain't nobody happy".

The galley is configured a little differently but not significantly different, at least not by my recollections.

From all i have read and experienced, the sailing characteristics are essentially same. Rock solid, comfortable, easy to sail, excellent in rough conditions.

Since it was only the two of us (or me alone) we were not concerned about berth space on the CD 25D

Either sailboat is an outstanding choice. John Vigor sailed a CD 27 for several years and frequently raved about her.

Good luck with your search

[gonesail]

i also was impressed with the 25D i looked at many years ago .. especially the head arrangement. towing and launching a 27 footer would be quite a challenge IMHO.

[fritz3000g]

Sounds like the head is the main difference, which I could see mattering to a lot of people, and the 25D wins that battle.

Anything else that would push you towards the 27?

Being a little less seasick, sleeping a little better, and moving a little faster on a passage seem valuable but not overwhelmingly so.

[fmueller]

I agree with the desirability of the layout of the 25 D with regard to privacy.

I disagree that either boat is a great choice for offshore adventures - even just 10 day. They are small boats. The 27 a little less so ... but small. I know there are famous examples of persons who have taken small boats across oceans but most people would be better served by a larger boat in that context. Inshore or near shore cruising - they are both somewhat cramped for long term cruising, but sturdy and affordable generally and ok for a couple. But you’ll struggle do anything but drag a dinghy. And you have just basic amenities - no shower - unless you make seriou$$ mods.

[Sea Hunt Video]

I agree with the desirability of the layout of the 25 D with regard to privacy.

I disagree that either boat is a great choice for offshore adventures - even just 10 day. And you have just basic amenities - no shower - unless you make seriou$$ mods.

A 5 gallon water bag hung off the boom makes a decent shower. There are certainly more expensive options but this is a cheap $17 option:

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?n ... id=1280128

[fritz3000g]

fmuller can you say more about why they're unsuitable for offshore passages? Is it seakindliness, storage space, reliability, or something else?

People seem to take 28s around the world. What makes them different?

[fmueller]

First, there are other members of this Asso who are much more qualified to answer your questions. Hope they will chime in.

But I'll just say this - just because "some" folks have taken small boats across oceans does not necessarily make it advisable generally speaking.

An exception never proves the rule. Quite the opposite. That is why it is the exception. The vast majority of folks who venture across oceans choose boats that are larger. Certainly seakeeping is the major reason, but also just simple storage capacity among other considerations. Also, while they are sturdy old boats, Cape Dorys (and this is especially true of the smaller Cape Dorys) were not conceived of as "ocean voyaging" boats. (Compare for instance to a Pacific Seacraft 24) They were (are) affordable, conservative, diminutive (CD 27, 26, 25 both, 22), family cruisers.

Sam Holmes most recently has gotten notice for his adventures in a CD 28. But he heavily modified his boat, and if it has got to be a Cape Dory, the 28 is probably the smallest advisable boat to consider. It's a 10,000 pound boat. The 27 is 7,500 pounds. The 25D is a 5,500 pound boat I believe.

Four days ago I crossed Nantucket Sound beating all the way into 18-20 knots with gusts easily to 25 and higher (true). 2nd reef, jib rolled in to 60%. White water all around. That's my personal limit in my little boat. It took 6 hours to get to Edgartown and I was knackered.

[fritz3000g]

fmueller that's really helpful, and makes a kind of sense logically. If most people who go offshore even for small passages choose larger boats, they must have a reason. Living in Wisconsin I don't meet many ocean voyagers but hopefully I will eventually. I wonder what other reasons they have besides just comfort.

I'm curious in your description of the Dana 24 as more-designed for ocean voyaging. The specs seem pretty similar to the CD27 to me.
I'd be tempted by one if they could be trailered legally. https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/dana- ... c-seacraft

In the summers I race a Beneteau First 32 on Lake Michigan. One race is the Hook, which takes 2 days and 2 nights. It's a small offshore passage. We've encountered storms that produced 40 MPH winds and sailed all day in 7 ft short-period waves. Made some mistakes too. While I might be shy about flying the symmetrical spinnaker, I would be completely comfortable taking that boat offshore for 10 days with a crew of two if we had time to prep. It rates quite a bit less sea-kindly than a CD 25D or 27. https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/first-32-beneteau

Is there something about the Beneteau that makes it more offshore-capable than a CD 25D, other than storage space?

[mgphl52]

Comparing a Beneteau First 32 to dang near any Cape Dory is apples vs oranges... at least in my book!
So much more depends upon the skill of the crew and the condition of the sails, especially with big wind and/or waves.

[fritz3000g]

Comparing a Beneteau First 32 to dang near any Cape Dory is apples vs oranges... at least in my book!

Ha ha! Which would you rather take offshore for a week - an apple or an orange?

[fmueller]

Of course the most important aspect of off shore safety is the skill set and experience of the skipper ! Not that I would know directly - discretion being the better part of valor, my personal judgement is that I'm not adequately experienced, so I try to stay within an hour or two of safe harbor.

That being said - I can guarantee you a skilled skipper will choose the 32 ft Beneteau over the smaller CDs in a blow, (or a CD 31, 32, 33 ). Those ratings are just a simple formula. They make no allowance for, for instance, the center of gravity or the keel lever arm, or any calculation of actual righting force around the center of floatation pivot. Two summers ago I raced on a 36' Dufour. Modern hull, 6.5 ft high aspect keel with all the ballast in a bullet lead bulb at the very bottom. That boat handles 25 knots true far far better than my CD27. In my boat my sense is that I am nearing a practical limit, where the 36 ft Dufour is fine if reefed down properly and goes tearing along at 8 knots doing 75 degree tacks (vs 5 knots and 100 degree tacks) which in a day might get you 75 mile farther away from the worst side of an approaching low on open waters.

There are a couple of things that are potentially deadly about the small CDs: An uncontrolled jibe or even a sloppy tack can kill you because there is not safe headroom under the boom. The cockpits are as large as possible for family daysailing, and inadequately drained, so a boarding wave in rough seas puts you at substantial risk of foundering, especially if you've not sealed you locker hatches. Say what you will about the typical modern open "sugar scoop" transom, but they empty in seconds.

edit: Dana 24, smallish cockpit footwell, harness clips in cockpit, cutter rig, full 4" bulkworks, 27" stanchions, dual anchor rollers on a bowsprit, superior engine access, fully enclosed head/shower/pan, salt and freshwater plumbed, strap style stainless chain stays, mast compression post, layup - at another level

[Jim Walsh]

I agree with much of what Fred has stated. I would choose my CD31 over a fin keel boat of a similar size because I want something which tracks well and is less prone to quick movements as the weather deteriorates. I’ve got some mobility issues as the result of a car accident so I have to plan my route on deck. I have found that I can do most anything if I take a moment to observe how the boat is responding to wind and waves. The full keel and the relatively docile motion of the design is what led me to a Cape Dory. The interior layout of the CD31 is another sea friendly feature. The head aft at the companionway allows me to lean into a bulkhead as I descend the stairs. The drop leaf centerline table flanked by settee’s port and starboard allow me to sleep on the lee side so lee cloths are only needed when the weather gets nasty.
I find a cutter ideal offshore as I have many sail combinations, especially since I have roller reefing on both headsails, and it’s relatively simple to balance the sails to mitigate the effects of weather helm and make it easy for the wind vane to work efficiently.
The robust build quality is reassuring when off soundings and the sailing characteristics, and the sea keeping ability, have proven themselves time and time again.
We all have minimal creature comfort requirements and personal preferences which dictate our choices. I’m happy with my choice. If I were headed across the Atlantic I would just stow more food than I do when I go to Bermuda. I have more than enough water and fuel capacity. The rig has already proven itself ideal and capable of a week, or a month, at sea.

[fritz3000g]

Of course the most important aspect of off shore safety is the skill set and experience of the skipper !

Totally with you there. I've got some offshore experience and plan to gradually build up to longer passages.

Those ratings are just a formula. They make no allowance for, for instance, the center of gravity or the keel lever arm, or any calculation of actual righting force around the center of floatation pivot.

I did the math for "calculation of actual righting force around the center of floatation pivot" and it looks like the Beneteau with a cast iron keel (what we sail) has just slightly more righting moment per displacement and righting moment per sail area as the 25D. If we had a lead keel in the Beneteau then it would be much better, but also a slower racer.

The 27 has a similar righting moment per displacement as the other two, but the righting moment per sail area is about 30% better.

Two summers ago I raced on a 36' Dufour. Modern hull, 6.5 ft high aspect keel with all the ballast in a bullet lead bulb at the very bottom. That boat handles 25 knots true far far better than my CD27.

The righting moment calc for the Dufour 36 depends completely on which model. Some of them are way more stable than any of those others, some similar to the others.

In my boat my sense is that I am near practical limit, where the 36 ft Dufour is fine if reefed down properly and goes tearing along at 8 knots doing 75 degree tacks (vs 5 knots and 100 degree tacks) which in half a day might get you 75 mile farther away from the worst side of an approaching low on open waters.

It sounds like you're suggesting that the small CDs point poorly in high winds (and waves presumably). Is that right?

Most of my sailing has been on my own MacGregor 25, which is by far less well suited to high winds than all the other boats we've discussed. At 25 knots sustained and 33 gusts and half the sail area out, it points like crap but flies along at 7.5 knots on a beam or a run. I've done that twice, and it's fun with a good crew. You have to keep a close watch to avoid a broach in those conditions, but it's doable. It gets pretty sketchy in waves above 4', so I avoid open water in high winds. Except for the positive flotation I wouldn't trust it further from shore than I could swim.

Based on my experiences on the Mac and the Beneteau, before hearing about your experiences I would have thought I'd feel comfortable on a CD 25D up to somewhere around 40 knot gusts for extended periods. Based on your experiences that might be overkill.

I wonder what others feel their limits would be?

It sounds like I should look for an opportunity to try it.

There are a couple of things that are potentially deadly about the small CDs: An uncontrolled jibe can kill you because there is not safe headroom under the boom. The cockpits are as large as possible, and inadequately drained so a boarding wave in rough seas puts you at substantial risk of foundering, especially if you've not sealed you locker hatches. Say what you will about the typical modern open "sugar scoop" transom, but they empty in seconds.

This is really helpful. So I'd want to rig a preventer anytime I drop below a beam reach (and generally be aware of the boom), and to expand the cockpit drain significantly.

Any other essential mods?

[tjr818]

. . . There are a couple of things that are potentially deadly about the small CDs: An uncontrolled jibe can kill you because there is not safe headroom under the boom.

This is really helpful. So I'd want to rig a preventer anytime I drop below a beam reach (and generally be aware of the boom), and to expand the cockpit train significantly. . . .

On Slainte, our 27, we had the new mainsail cut so that the clew end was raised 10", the gooseneck remained in the original position. We lost 5 sq. ft. of sail area, but that raised to boom high enough to prevent any head knocking. We also added a rigid boom vang so that the boom would Neve drop on anyone's (think First Mate) head.