Cabintop Sides

[eb1smith]

I am in the process of a refit on Larissa (CD-31). I have taken out the ports in order to seal them and possibly paint the deck. But I am noticing that the cabin top (coach house/saloon) sides seem to be hollow. The eyebrows did leak and damaged the balsa on the port side deck, which has been fixed. I have done some searching here on the board as well with the great Google and have found very little information.

Is this normal or should the cabin top sides have a balsa core?

Thanks,

--Eric

[Jim Walsh]

The cabin top and the deck have a balsa core for stiffness (as does the cockpit sole). The vertical cabin sides do not have a balsa core as it is not required for stiffness.
Since you have completely removed the opening ports, if I was in your shoes, I would use this opportunity to fill the gap between the cabin top and the interior headliner with your choice of caulk to ensure you are leak free going forward.
I have not had to rebed my ports but I have had to rebed my midship hatch and there were gaps between the cabin top and the teak molding. I filled this gap with 3M 4000UV if I remember correctly. This hatch is now drip free.

[John Ring]

I'm in the middle of the same job on my CD36. Jim is right - there is no core in there. There was no butyl either, and therefore the ports leak. The ports on Tiara seem to have the same polyester mish-mash that was used on the hull/deck joint. It was pretty brittle, but easy to cut away.
I'm replacing the teak panels around the ports with ribbon sapele and bedding the ports in butyl. It's a bear of a job, but it's coming out pretty nice.
John Ring
CD36 Tiara

[Jim Walsh]

Nice work John. That sapele is beautiful. Thankfully I’ve never had a leak around my ports.

[eb1smith]

Thanks for the responses.

I do like the look of that wood. My teak veneer has water damage on it so, I was thinking of just leaving it the plain white fiberglass to brighten up the joint. Then replacing the ports with butyl tape in a similar fashion, as well.

--Eric

[John Stone]

Hi Eric
I gutted my boat. Eliminated the leaky eyebrows. Cut out the headliner. Rebuilt the cabin sides with 1/2" mahogany marine plywood. Rebedded the portlights with butyl and 3M 4000. Six years later my boat does not leak a drop.

I detailed the work here. http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... ights.html

Not suggesting you remove the headliner but I recommend at a minimum you install a shim either plywood, teak, or manufactured sheet fiberglass in the void between the FRP sides and the FRP headliner where the portlights are through bolted. You could could substitute thickened epoxy forced into the void with a big syringe. Or use premixed west Epoxy 610. Various ways to do it.

[gonesail]

there are no port leaks on my 1989 boat but the bronze port condensation is almost as bad as a leak. better I think to have the white formica or white fiberglass on the cabin sides. much brighter too.

[eb1smith]

Yes, John, I have spent many an hour perusing your site. I like the work you have done on your vessel.

The port opening has been packed with what appears to be kitty hair polyester resin for a depth of about 2" around the hole.

I was thinking that there might be a way to fill the void with expanding foam to help insulate. But then I would be concerned that there could be a blow-out.

--Eric

[John Stone]

Yes, John, I have spent many an hour perusing your site. I like the work you have done on your vessel.

The port opening has been packed with what appears to be kitty hair polyester resin for a depth of about 2" around the hole.

I was thinking that there might be a way to fill the void with expanding foam to help insulate. But then I would be concerned that there could be a blow-out.

--Eric

I don't think I would use foam. Firstly, because you can't control the expansion (you can do some real damage) and secondly because any water that migrates in from another source could exacerbate the problem when it gets to the foam.

I have been thinking about your project and were it me and I was not going to remove the headliner and do extensive deck work then I don't think I would change the structure of how the portlights are installed. I'd be concerned it will just make the project more difficult by creating the potential for unintended consequences.

What I would do:
-Remove the port lights.

-Clean up the fiberglass around the portlight opening. Repair any cracks or splits in the fiberglass. Add thickened epoxy into any voids around the portlight openings between the cabin side and the liner to the width of the portlight flange.

-You must address the eyebrow strips. They leak. Not because they are a terrible idea but because almost no one maintains them. They have not been rebedded since the boat was new. So remove them and personally I would fill the holes with epoxy and mill new eyebrows. Maybe a little thicker than the originals. Install the new ones. Tape off the cabin side and remove them. Varnish them and reinstall with teak colored Boatlife polysulfide, 3M 4000 UV or maybe sikaflex 291. Plug the wood screws and keep varnishing till done. Or paint them.

-Replace the interior plywood with BS 1088 ply. I think it was 1/4". Go with teak faced veneer. Will look awesome varnished with Epifanes clear gloss varnish or even rubbed effect. Egadds don't use Formica--it's not waterproof and looks horrible. Unless you want the interior to look like a Catalina. Just saying.... Anyway, seal edge grain of plywood with thinned epoxy where you cut out for the portlights. Varnish gets my vote but do as you wish.

-If painting the plywood sides then use a good one part LPU such as interlux Brightside. If you are going to paint it then go with 1/4" okume which is a little less expensive than teak veneer. Don't varnish okume if you use for cabinside it will look muddy and kind of unattractive if it's in your face.

Do not bed the portlights on the inside. I think that's generally a mistake. What makes the portlights waterproof is the trim ring. If the water makes it past the trim ring and begins to leak around the interior flange you want to know so you can rebed the trim ring. Treat the cause not the symptom.

-Make sure there is some space, a gap if you will, between the trim ring flange and the cabin side. You need that gap so you can pack it with butyl rubber. Fill the trim ring with 3M 4000 or sika 291 and install. It's not going to leak. Promise. Not around the portlight anyway.

That headliner is strong. On my boat it was 1/4" solid fiberglass. Strong as hell. Heavy too. If you fill any voids around the portlight opening it will make a strong surface for you to secure the port light flange to when you tighten those PM nuts. Like a compression ring.

Anyway, that's what I would do if I was leaving the headliner in the boat. And removing the headliner is not for the faint of heart. It is a huge horrible very messy and scary project. And to be truthful the headliner works well. The key is to make sure water can't get through the deck. The headliner has nothing to do with leaks. It just makes it hard to track them down and you can't get to the underside of the deck easily.

For what it's worth I think you are doing a good thing by tackling those portlights. People bitch about the boats leaking. Well I don't know anything that doesn't leak after 40 years of complete exposure to the elements if it has not been routinely maintained.

Lastly, I have never had condensation issues with my portlights. Maybe that's because I have 1/2" ply against the cabin sides and no voids. Dunno. I have run my heater when it's 35° outside and had it 70° F inside. I expected some condensation just never had any. Maybe my conditions were not extreme enough or maybe I was not in the boat long enough in those conditions. I have read about tricks folks do so you might try some of them and see what happens--saran wrap or reflectix, etc. I don't have any experience in that area.

So that's what I would probably do.

[wikakaru]

-You must address the eyebrow strips. They leak. Not because they are a terrible idea but because almost no one maintains them. They have not been rebedded since the boat was new. So remove them and personally I would fill the holes with epoxy and mill new eyebrows. Maybe a little thicker than the originals. Install the new ones. Tape off the cabin side and remove them. Varnish them and reinstall with teak colored Boatlife polysulfide, 3M 4000 UV or maybe sikaflex 291. Plug the wood screws and keep varnishing till done. Or paint them.

This question is bit of a tangent, but I've been wondering about eyebrows for all the reasons you mention. My understanding is that their function is to visually break up the line of the cabin house so that it appears shorter than it really is. I think eyebrows are designed to enhance the look of a boat from a distance. If that is the case, I wonder about replacing teak eyebrows with a painted stripe, much like is done with a boot stripe or cove stripe. It should have the same effect of reducing the visual height of the cabin, and would mean one less thing to mask and varnish every year. Any thoughts?

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[John Stone]

-You must address the eyebrow strips. They leak. Not because they are a terrible idea but because almost no one maintains them. They have not been rebedded since the boat was new. So remove them and personally I would fill the holes with epoxy and mill new eyebrows. Maybe a little thicker than the originals. Install the new ones. Tape off the cabin side and remove them. Varnish them and reinstall with teak colored Boatlife polysulfide, 3M 4000 UV or maybe sikaflex 291. Plug the wood screws and keep varnishing till done. Or paint them.

This question is bit of a tangent, but I've been wondering about eyebrows for all the reasons you mention. My understanding is that their function is to visually break up the line of the cabin house so that it appears shorter than it really is. I think eyebrows are designed to enhance the look of a boat from a distance. If that is the case, I wonder about replacing teak eyebrows with a painted stripe, much like is done with a boot stripe or cove stripe. It should have the same effect of reducing the visual height of the cabin, and would mean one less thing to mask and varnish every year. Any thoughts?

Smooth sailing,

Jim

I eliminated the eyebrows in the Far Reach. Don't miss them for a second. But, I have 6 3/4" tall bulwarks to break up the cabin top. I know some folks like them. I think they look great when perfectly maintained though they are of dubious value. I think a painted strip is a fine idea if you think the cabin top looks too big...I don't.

[ghockaday]

On Danielle Elizabeth we removed the eye brows and filled the holes as John suggested and painted them back on, matching the boot stripe. Dee

[eb1smith]

John thanks for the checklist. I agree with most of your assessments and already had planned on doing many of these items.

The eyebrows did leak and I had to redo the whole deck because of them. I do like the looks of them so I will be replacing them, but with an epoxy plug where the screws go. The last time I injected epoxy in the hole, but now see why this did not work. The painted eyebrows look a little strange to me.

I am trying to lighten up the interior, so I am looking at just leaving the textured fiberglass. I can always go back and add the teak plywood back.

--Eric

[wikakaru]

I eliminated the eyebrows in the Far Reach. Don't miss them for a second. But, I have 6 3/4" tall bulwarks to break up the cabin top. I know some folks like them. I think they look great when perfectly maintained though they are of dubious value. I think a painted strip is a fine idea if you think the cabin top looks too big...I don't.

The cabin house on the CD22 is a lot higher in proportion to the topside height than it is on the CD36, so I think the eyebrows are necessary on the 22.

On Danielle Elizabeth we removed the eye brows and filled the holes as John suggested and painted them back on, matching the boot stripe. Dee

I don't see any photos on the board that show your painted eye brows. Would you mind posting one?

The eyebrows did leak and I had to redo the whole deck because of them. I do like the looks of them so I will be replacing them, but with an epoxy plug where the screws go. The last time I injected epoxy in the hole, but now see why this did not work. The painted eyebrows look a little strange to me.

Can you explain what looked strange about painted eyebrows?

Tim Lackey is going to be refinishing the decks and cabin house on Arietta this winter, so this is a decision I have to make in the next few months.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[John Ring]

I’ll be removing the eyebrows on Tiara, filling the holes, then setting the refinished eyebrows back down with either 2 sided automotive tape or velcro.
John Ring
CD36 Tiara