CD25 brightwork

[Moby Dink]

So, thanks to Smitty, owner of Innisfree, I decided not to shortcut and removed every piece of teak from Slainte's exterior, sanded, cleaned and brightened today. Puschased Cetol Natural Teak and High Gloss. Never used Natural Teak before, nor seen in person. This is my first go around with the teak on new to me CD25, and figured I'd ask anyone's opinion before I dip my brush. That was alot of work, hate to have to do it again if there's something better I should be using? Thanks all!

[jfischgrund]

I'm a big fan of Cetol. Used two coats of Natural Teak and two coats of clear gloss and it looks quite nice. Maybe not as beautiful as 4 coats of spar varnish, but four times easier to apply (no sanding between coats) and lasts at last twice as long. I am planning to put a maintenance coat of clear on this summer.

[John Stone]

Do not mistake a different view as criticism. There is no one way or single best answer. The closest thing I can think of though to “the right way” is to apply the kind of finish you are willing to maintain. Interestingly that metric will likely change over time. I think that’s true for all of us.

That said, all things considered equal, there is no comparison of finish between one sanded between coats and one not sanded between coats. No matter how self leveling a finish is (to include two part LPU) there will be runs, curtains, holiday, brush marks, etc. Thise imperfections will be magnified by successive coats. Inside corners will experience significant build up of finish you are applying if there is no sanding between coats. If you like gloss, nothing else looks like varnish. The way most people seems to justify their finish choice is using the distance rule. “It looks awesome at 20 feet!”. If you are hPpy with that or five feet or whatever then right on. For me I want it to look good when I am a foot away. Not for anyone else’s pleasure but for my pleasure. I don’t always get it though.

I like varnish. I enjoy applying it. I don’t like the preparation work. I don’t like the taping and sanding. I’d never varnish or finish bright the bulwarks on the Far Reach even though they would look gorgeous. I would be exhausted trying to maintain it and protect it. Paint there all the way. My external varnish comes down to the mahogany coamings and the doug fir bowsprit. All remaining teak is left bare. I can live with the maintenance of what I have.

Taking the wood off and then home for varnish is great but it is a lot of work. Are you rebedding exterior trim in caulk when you reinstall? Are you going to do this multiple times a year or once a year or?

Teak does not require a finish, though it does require care. Most other woods do require finish to extend their life and maintain their strength. But nothing glows under varnish like teak. It’s hypnotic.

Anytime I hear a question about wood finish, I recommend Rebecca Whittman’s Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood. . It is the bible of wood finish. Not an inexpensive book, but a good way to look at it is it costs about same as a quart of Epifanes varnish.

Whatever path you choose try to enjoy the process. You are going to learn a lot. There is no final coat. So if it’s a little boogered up you get a chance to do better within a few months or maximum of a year down the road.

The CD 25 is an outstanding boat. I wish you joy and happiness sailing such a fine boat.

[gonesail]

there's a lot of difference between what you can get with cetol and what you can get with varnish. that being said .. I agree the cetol is easier to work with and the results can be impressive. use a good brush and keep it clean. if your teak is old I would also scrub the bare wood with a 25% bleach solution to kill any lingering mold. since you have already removed the teak .. it is a good idea to apply the cetol indoors in a controlled environment. i have done the clear over natural teak before .. it should look really nice.

[Frenchy]

I'm also a big fan of cetol. To look its best, you might want to apply a two-part teak cleaner beforehand -
perhaps even twice if all the splotchiness doesn't disappear. Now that you've removed all the pieces, it's a great
time to do that. Some say the two-part cleaners are "harsh" - but they do the job and I've never had a problem.
Anyway, good luck with the project. - Jean

[Typhoon4Fun]

Teak does not require a finish, though it does require care.

I thought I posted this but looks like it got lost in the midst of the site maintenance.

It appears that Adeline's toe rails and coamings were varnished at one point (little remnants in hard-to-sand places) but stripped by a PO. I don't mind the weathered appearance, but I have been wondering what I should do for maintenance, if anything. What do you recommend, if not a finish?

[John Stone]

Teak does not require a finish, though it does require care.

I thought I posted this but looks like it got lost in the midst of the site maintenance.

It appears that Adeline's toe rails and coamings were varnished at one point (little remnants in hard-to-sand places) but stripped by a PO. I don't mind the weathered appearance, but I have been wondering what I should do for maintenance, if anything. What do you recommend, if not a finish?

I can only comment on my own experience and preferences. Other folks have as worthy an opinion as mine as long they are happy with their decisions and they don’t harm the wood. I can’t comment on Cetol or finishes like it. Used it once on my J24 years ago and hated it. Other seem happy with it. I think they have improved since I used it back in the day.

When I leave teak bare I never use a brush to clean it. Bristles destroy teak. They dig grooves in the softer wood between the growth rings which traps more grime which damages the wood and so on and so forth.

Use a heat gun to remove any varnish. Tape the fiberglass around the teak first with two layers of 3M 233 solvent resistant tape. I use 1/2” and some times 3/4” tape. You can find it on Amazon. I can get it at a local auto supply store that supports local automotive paint shops.

Sand lightly if necessary just to remove anything left on the teak. I have used 120 in teak beat up bad but tend to stick with 180-220. You can wash it with some soap and water and a wash cloth. Use a two part teak cleaner if it still looks bad. Tape off and use plastic sheeting to protect the paint and gel coat finish. Read the directions of the product carefully.

After it’s clean and dry remove tape and retape with 233 tape. Sand it fairly smooth but don’t get too aggressive. Always sand with the grain. Get in those inside corners with sandpaper wrapped around a putty knife.

If left bare just wash it off with water and a washcloth. You will be surprised what that will do for it.

Clear saltwater rinse is the best thing in the world for bare teak. If it’s really dirty after a while you can add a small amount of bleach to a soapy water—maybe 10:1 or less. Scrub gentle. Rinse. That’s it.

I don’t see the point in oiling bare wood. Others may disagree. If you want to varnish them use a good varnish with UV stabilizer like Epifanes. Stay away from epoxy based or two part varnish. It will look good and not requires as much maintenance as regular varnish but when it fails (and it will eventually) there will be the devil to pay to remove it.

Try to avoid varnishing any wood on horizontal surfaces because it takes direct overhead sunlight and you step on it and drag lines over it etc. that is why my mahogany coamings have a bare teak cap rail.

Just varnish what you are willing to maintain. And your preferences may change over time. Perfectly normal.

That’s about all I can suggest. Don’t forget Whittman’s book.

[John Stone]

Teak does not require a finish, though it does require care.

I thought I posted this but looks like it got lost in the midst of the site maintenance.

It appears that Adeline's toe rails and coamings were varnished at one point (little remnants in hard-to-sand places) but stripped by a PO. I don't mind the weathered appearance, but I have been wondering what I should do for maintenance, if anything. What do you recommend, if not a finish?

I can only comment on my own experience and preferences. Other folks have as worthy an opinion as mine as long they are happy with their decisions and they don’t harm the wood. I can’t comment on Cetol or finishes like it. Used it once on my J24 years ago and hated it. Other seem happy with it. I think they have improved since I used it back in the day.

When I leave teak bare I never use a brush to clean it. Bristles destroy teak. They dig grooves in the softer wood between the growth rings which traps more grime which damages the wood and so on and so forth.

Use a heat gun to remove any varnish. Tape the fiberglass around the teak first with two layers of 3M 233 solvent resistant tape. I use 1/2” and some times 3/4” tape. You can find it on Amazon. I can get it at a local auto supply store that supports local automotive paint shops.

Sand lightly if necessary just to remove anything left on the teak. I have used 120 in teak beat up bad but tend to stick with 180-220. You can wash it with some soap and water and a wash cloth. Use a two part teak cleaner if it still looks bad. Tape off and use plastic sheeting to protect the paint and gel coat finish. Read the directions of the product carefully.

After it’s clean and dry remove tape and retape with 233 tape. Sand it fairly smooth but don’t get too aggressive. Always sand with the grain. Get in those inside corners with sandpaper wrapped around a putty knife.

If left bare just wash it off with water and a washcloth. You will be surprised what that will do for it.

Clear saltwater rinse is the best thing in the world for bare teak. If it’s really dirty after a while you can add a small amount of bleach to a soapy water—maybe 10:1 or less. Scrub gentle. Rinse. That’s it.

I don’t see the point in oiling bare wood. Others may disagree. If you want to varnish them use a good varnish with UV stabilizer like Epifanes. Stay away from epoxy based or two part varnish. It will look good and not requires as much maintenance as regular varnish but when it fails (and it will eventually) there will be the devil to pay to remove it.

Try to avoid varnishing any wood on horizontal surfaces because it takes direct overhead sunlight and you step on it and drag lines over it etc. that is why my mahogany coamings have a bare teak cap rail.

Just varnish what you are willing to maintain. And your preferences may change over time. Perfectly normal.

That’s about all I can suggest. Don’t forget Whittman’s book.

[Typhoon4Fun]

That’s about all I can suggest.

Big thanks for the detailed response! bare and clean gets my vote for now. At least until I've knocked everything else off the list (may be never )

[wikakaru]

The TLDR Summary
Know thyself: If you can handle the "20-foot test" as the level of quality you are after, Cetol is fine, except for laminated wood like tillers, which should be varnished.

The Full Rant
Having just finished refurbishing the Cetol-coated teak on our CD22, (the Cetol was originally applied by a previous owner), and having used Epifanes varnish on my other boats for many decades, including my Typhoon, I think I can offer a reasonably well-informed comparison of varnish and Cetol.

As background, last year I neglected to do annual maintenance on the Cetol on our CD22, in part because I was confused about what I should actually do. Cetol is a multi-product system: there is a base product, which is either Cetol Marine, Cetol Marine Natural Teak, or Cetol Marine Light, followed by Cetol Marine Gloss. I didn't know exactly which base product the previous owner had used, and I didn’t know if I had to re-apply the base and the gloss, just the gloss, or what. So I did nothing and went sailing instead. (I since found out from a Sikkens rep that the proper annual maintenance for intact Cetol is one coat of Marine Gloss per year in temperate climates, and two coats in tropical climates.) This year the finish had broken through in a number of spots and was too ugly to ignore any longer. I had to do something.

Back in 2017 we re-did the teak on our Typhoon. The was wood had been heavily weathered and scrubbed with a stiff-bristled scrub brush every year for the prior 36 years by the previous owner, so the grain of the wood was terrible. We did a proper prep job of the wood, starting with 80 grit and going down to 320. We then varnished with Epifanes. We were striving for perfection, and had as many as 12 coats of varnish in some areas. She looked stunning when we were done. The whole process took 6 weeks. We were working outside in Florida in January and February, so some of this time included waiting for favorable weather. With that as my yardstick, there was no way I was going to take such a long time with this restoration—the summer would be almost over before I finished the teak. I decided to patch the Cetol instead.

One of the most important things to remember with a varnish job is that preparation of the wood, including removing the old finish, bleaching, and sanding, is at least half the work. If you want to do a good job with your teak, whether it is finished with Cetol, varnish, oil, or bare, you have to spend a lot of time on prep. Unfortunately, the previous owner hadn’t done an especially remarkable prep job before he applied the Cetol, and I wasn’t willing to spend the time to make it perfect. My approach for this job was to just sand the spots that had worn all the way through to bare teak, clean up the gray exposed wood, and sand out some of the most egregious drips, runs, and brush marks left from the previous owner, but leave any minor imperfections that still had a good coat of Cetol on them. Then I hit everything with three coats of Cetol Marine Natural Teak, followed by three coats of Cetol Marine Gloss, following the instructions on the cans.

I found that Cetol was more "forgiving" of my bad prep work than varnish in the respect that the tint of the product sort of covers some of the blemishes, and makes spot-patching less obvious. I never managed the knack with varnish to be able to fix a ding by sanding that one area down to bare wood and feathering it in with the surrounding varnish. The color always looks a little different. With Cetol, by the time I was done, I couldn’t tell the patches from the original Cetol.

Another difference between Cetol and varnish is that the Cetol instructions specifically say not to thin it. So if you are working in a hot climate and your paint pot starts getting thick and gummy, you just have to throw the pot away and get fresh, or use smaller batches instead of adding a few drops of thinner as you would with varnish.

Others have said that they prefer Cetol because it is easier to apply since you don't have to sand between coats. (In fact, the instructions specifically say NOT to sand between coats.) This is a double-edged sword: while it's nice not to have to sand between coats, I think of the process of sanding between coats as a "magic eraser" that fixes all the brush strokes, drips, runs, dust, bugs, etc., that screwed up the previous coat. So with varnish, you lightly sand between coats to slightly scuff the surface for good adhesion, but you more heavily sand places where you need to fix your mistakes. With Cetol, the quality of the final surface in terms of runs, sags, etc., is the sum of all the mistakes you have made on all the previous coats; with varnish, the quality of the final surface is the quality of your last coat. Cetol flows a little differently, and to some extent levels a little better than traditional varnish, but I can tell you that I had plenty of runs in my Cetol job that I simply had to leave. Let's just say that this Cetol job hasn't been my best wood finish work ever.

Another big difference between varnish and Cetol (and a reason for the sand/don't sand difference) is that varnish dries to a much harder coat than Cetol. I much prefer the harder surface of varnish to the softer Cetol. Even though you have to be careful with varnish, it stands up to wear better than Cetol. One of the sources of holes in my Cetol was where the tiller, when stood up vertically in the cockpit, wore against the aft teak rail of the cockpit and scratched through the Cetol on the aft rail in a single pass of the tiller. I don’t think this would have happened with varnish. Sure, it may have scratched the surface, but not all the way through all the coats like it did with the Cetol.

I made the mistake of using the same schedule of 3 coats of Cetol Marine Natural Teak and 3 coats of Cetol Marine Gloss on the tiller. After the fact, I can definitively say one should NEVER USE CETOL ON LAMINATED WOOD. What should be a lovely two-tone contrast of light and dark wood blends to a single shade of ugly orange-brown that is reminiscent of a cheap spray-on suntan. It is horrible. Plus the Cetol feels different under hand than varnish--a little stickier and softer--and for something you are holding in your hand all the time like the tiller, it makes a difference. This winter I will take the tiller south with me to Florida, strip off all the Cetol, and do a proper varnish job on it.

Now that the Cetol is finished, I can say this about the difference: up close, Cetol just can’t compare with a proper varnish job. A proper varnish job is a thing of beauty and a joy to behold. But from 20 or more feet away, except for the slight color difference, the Cetol looks pretty good. Unfortunately, I don’t sail my boat from 20 feet away, I sail it from zero feet away, so while it looks good to everyone else who sees the boat, I would rather have varnish. Perhaps this is the big question: how good is good enough? It isn’t a technical question, it is a personal one.

Everyone on this board who owns a Cape Dory has a boat that is between roughly 30 and 60 years old. Many of us still have the original teak that has seen a lot of abuse and neglect. As the wood gets older and has been refinished many times, it gets harder and harder to get a good finish because the underlying wood is chipped, cracked, dented, or just disappearing because of being sanded away too many times. For many Cape Dory owners, there is a good argument for skimping on proper wood preparation, slapping a few quick coats of Cetol on the wood, and getting out and enjoying the water quicker. If the wood is in good condition (especially if you have removed it all from the boat and prepped it properly), or if you are replacing the teak, or if you have the leisure of long winters and a boat shed in which to work, I would unequivocally go with proper varnish.

I’m sure I’ve crossed the line for too much information in this post, but hopefully my experience will be of some use.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[John Stone]

Great analysis Jim. I’d say spot on.

[jmaue]

How difficult and how long did it take to remove all of your teak? I have a CD28 looking to do the same this winter.