Cape Dory and heeling angle

[ghockaday]

I have done some searching from the past but would really like some current opinions on heel angles of your boats. Now I have read some knock down drag outs on Sailnet and that is not what I would like to see here. So most of the folks on sailnet are of the opinion that healing beyond 15 degrees is horrible, makes an uncomfortable ride. "The boats of the 70s were a horrible design, tender" This is what I have found with our CD30 for sailing conditions in the lower bay. We usually don't sail in lite wind. Lite wind is for boat chores and wine drinking.
1. It takes very little breeze to hit 15 degrees. If I never went above I would never hit 6 knots.
2. We have put the actual rail in the water only once. Our Pearson 30 kept the rail in the water.
3. On a good 10 to 15 day with full canvas we will heal to a very comfortable ride at 20+ degrees, very stable ride in wind and wave.
4 On a 15 to 20 and gusty we will heel about 25 to 30 degrees and bear off the wind in gust, still very comfortable, we will have reefed by this point. Rail nowhere near the water.

The above is usually close hauled if we were on a reach the numbers will be much less. We love sailing into the wind and waves.

We did remove the diesel, around 500# or so batteries or fuel tank and such from the stern and installed a 10kw electric motor, about 50#. We also removed the two water tanks and have 4 90# batteries on each side (720# total), they are laying on their side to keep as low as possible. This lowered the bow by about 1.5 inches and raised the stern. (need to raise the boot stripe)

So what are your experiences? Do my above anges sound about right or did the load dynamics change her some? I would assume the larger and smaller would be similar?
Dennis

[Steve Laume]

That all sounds pretty close as far as heeling angle is concerned. The only time Raven's rail goes under is if there are big waves thrown into the mix. New sails will do more than anything to help reduce heel and increase performance, Steve.

[ghockaday]

That all sounds pretty close as far as heeling angle is concerned. The only time Raven's rail goes under is if there are big waves thrown into the mix. New sails will do more than anything to help reduce heel and increase performance, Steve.

Thanks Steve, new sails last year.

[Keith]

Hi Dennis,

That sounds about right. I usually take a single reef in the main above 15 and the second reef above 20. Then play with different combinations of stays'l and yankee depending on conditions and wind angle. I do occasionally forgo the reef and wash off the rail. The rail goes in at 37-38 deg of heel. I single hand so the angle of heel does't bother me in fact I rather enjoy it. It is very stable with the rail in at 38 and still stable with the lower part of the stantions in at 45 or so. I've only done that a few times when I was close to home port and didn't want to take in a reef for the last few miles.

Keith

[ghockaday]

So y'all would agree that she is coming into her own around 20 degrees of heel, getting up to hull speed as well as a very comfortable ride? Dennis

[Keith]

Yes, indeed 20 deg heel when close hauled and you should be up to hull speed ~6.4 kts. As you heel more you actually increase the length of the water line therefore increasing the hull speed marginally. For example 23' lwl = 6.43 kts and 24' lwl = 6.56 kts

[John Stone]

Our boats are narrow by modern standards and a bit tender initially. But they stiffen up fast. Because they are narrow they sail upwind pretty well. I sail the FR upwind about 20-25°. Any more than 25° and the boat slows a bit. I have proven this to myself a number of times. Keep in mind my boat is perfectly balanced with almost no weather helm to 30°. A boat not set up well can develop a lot of weather helm if she heels excessively. At about 25° the FR stiffens considerably. The only time I have seen 35° is a huge gust...usually when flying the big drifter upwind and not paying attention. In my opinion there is no value in sailing at 35°. It’s hard on the boat, the rig, and and is tiring on the crew. You are slower too.

Like you II took my 500 pound engine out as well as the 50 gallon fuel tank. But I also removed the wheel steering, plumbing, water tankage, wiring etc—and a bunch of other stuff. I probably removed 1,500-2,000 of the original boat weight. But I then installed more wood and a wall of bronze. When unloaded and sailed as a light boat I am probably 500-1000 lbs below stock.

After the rebuild she was down in the bow about 1”-2” due to removing the engine. I then added 230lbs of lead pigs that I cast and placed it below where the engine had been. I had already installed my bronze Edson 117 gallon a stroke bilge pump aft as well as all my spare anchors and chain. That got her in within 1/2” of her marks.

Fore and aft trim makes a big difference on these boats. I have experimented quite a bit, as I still do, but my boat sails best on her fore and aft marks. I have just installed an engine which weighs almost the same as the lead pigs which I have removed. So, I think we will be on our lines. That’s the plan anyway.

Old blown out sails will increase your heeling too so make sure you consider that as well.

[Jim Walsh]

I used to frequently heel over to 90° when on starboard tack. My top speed was reduced slightly but the topsides benefited from a power wash, the bright work.....not so much. I tried it once while on port tack and the the benefits of the power wash were immediately apparent, as was the effect of the offset companionway..... I let the mainsheet fly and spun the wheel...almost instantaneously Orion was upright, but not before a deluge had made its way into the cabin.
I now limit myself to more conservative angles of heel.....regardless of which tack I am on.

[SVFayaway]

20-25 degrees of heel is what my 28 likes. She's at her best with the rail a few inches above the water. By the time I'm really driving the rail under she's sluggish. It feels like she's being driven into the water rather than through it. I don't race much and don't have a desire to but I'm very sensitive to changes in boat speed and have a low tolerance for anything that slows her down-one of the reasons I have a hard time letting other people steer...

When I bought my first boat, a Pearson Triton, I was told by the owner that he didn't put a reef in until "at least 20 knots." In the years since I've heard that refrain from many owners of full keel boats. As I've since learned the hard way, it's nonsense. I reef at 15 knots, and if I fail to I'm punished, sometimes brutally. Most recently heading into the Choptank River during a race where we were fighting wind and current and got beaten up pretty badly while making little headway. We finished last.

[radsailor]

The person from whom I purchased my Typhoon almost a year ago told me he never reefed below 20kts. That is complete B.S. With the 155% genoa, 12 knots is top range of comfort and control. Even now winter sailing with the 110% jib, I will still reef at 12-15 knots. The boat sails better and is much more enjoyable. Sure, the boat can tolerate having the rail in the water, but as others had said, this is slow and has no benefit.

[Keith]

This is interesting. I find for example that if I'm close hauled in 15-17 kts of wind and full sail that I'm heeled at 30-35 deg (rail 2 inches out of the water) and doing ~6 kts. I then take a reef in either the main or the yankee and the heel goes to 25 deg but I typically loose about 0.5 kt of speed. This has been checked many many times over my 8 years of sailing MOONDANCE. I have a new main and new yankee. The staysail will be replaced this year. I did see a bit less heel with the new sails but I still loose speed when I reef in the condition described above.

If I'm understanding correctly others are saying that they pick up speed when reefing and reducing heel from in the 30-35 deg range to the 20-25 deg range. I'm a bit baffled why my CD 30 performs differently then the other sizes CD.

[John Stone]

This is interesting. I find for example that if I'm close hauled in 15-17 kts of wind and full sail that I'm heeled at 30-35 deg (rail 2 inches out of the water) and doing ~6 kts. I then take a reef in either the main or the yankee and the heel goes to 25 deg but I typically loose about 0.5 kt of speed. This has been checked many many times over my 8 years of sailing MOONDANCE. I have a new main and new yankee. The staysail will be replaced this year. I did see a bit less heel with the new sails but I still loose speed when I reef in the condition described above.

If I'm understanding correctly others are saying that they pick up speed when reefing and reducing heel from in the 30-35 deg range to the 20-25 deg range. I'm a bit baffled why my CD 30 performs differently then the other sizes CD.

Doesn’t really matter. As long as you know your boat. They are all a little different based on rig tuning, cut and condition of the sails, and how they are trimmed out with respect to their marks.

Fun story....In Jan 2019 one of my Marine buddies had flown down to the VI to join me for a week of sailing. We were beating east through the Narrows between St John and St Thomas. The wind was honking. We had sailed out of Francis Bay with a single reef and working jib but it was evident we had more sail than we needed. But we were having fun and so I just dropped the traveler and eased the main out a bit to balance the helm and we kept on working our way up the Drake Channel tack upon tack. Anyway, in short order a nice looking CCA era 38’ish foot dark blue hulled yawl sailed out of French Cut and crossed our bow on port tack. He was reefed down nicely. Sails trimmed and set perfectly. A skilled sailor with pride in his ship. They were tearing along. The spray was flying. We tacked and were a little behind and below him. I thought we would catch him...but we did not gain on him. In fact I think we were losing a bit. I was annoyed. My years of racing were nagging me. The competitive impulse deep in the lizard part of my brain was causing me to twitch. I needed to act. If we trimmed in and heeled up to the 30°-35° range he got further ahead. A substantial chop was building. We were smashing into the blue Atlantic swells that we’re passing between the islands. Wind was prob 25 gusting 35 kts. So I decided to take in that second reef. It took maybe 2-3 min. With the reef in I sheeted in the main hard. Eased the traveler just a bit and we settled in with about a 25° heel. It was amazing. In no time we had gained quite a bit. We got into a bit of a tacking dual gaining on him every tack and in about 3-4 tacks we crossed his bow. We were more up right but we were faster. I estimate we gained a knot in boat speed.

Trimming for speed and balance is a life long pursuit. Every boat is a little different. The FR handles different fully loaded for voyaging than she does when lightly loaded for local sailing.

[robwm]

I find that my CD22 sails best, most steadily and smoothly at a 15/20 heel.

Burying the rail is exhilarating, no doubt, but it requires more attention to wind gusts and shifts, and the tiller, than I find to be warranted for the minimal (if any) increase in speed. I recognize that my experience is based on sailing on an inland lake of modest proportions where I seldom get to enjoy staying on a steady course with a relatively steady wind for more than 30 minutes before needing to tack. If I had the luxury of sailing on an extended course where small incremental changes in heel/sails trim would have a significant effect on speed, I might find my observations to be different.

Also, while I do not have the reference at hand I do recall reading once upon a time that Alberg designed his boats for optimum performance at that heel range.
Robert

[ghockaday]

Our boats are narrow by modern standards and a bit tender initially. But they stiffen up fast. Because they are

After the rebuild she was down in the bow about 1”-2” due to removing the engine. I then added 230lbs of lead pigs that I cast and placed it below where the engine had been. I had already installed my bronze Edson 117 gallon a stroke bilge pump aft as well as all my spare anchors and chain. That got her in within 1/2” of her marks.

Fore and aft trim makes a big difference on these boats. I have experimented quite a bit, as I still do, but my boat sails best on her fore and aft marks. I have just installed an engine which weighs almost the same as the lead pigs which I have removed. So, I think we will be on our lines. That’s the plan anyway.

Old blown out sails will increase your heeling too so make sure you consider that as well.

So you think I would benefit from adding weight to the stern to get the bow back up? I did consider that but was not sure. Dennis

[ghockaday]

Think y'll all so much, a very enlightening thread. So I'm not crazy at all that I find around 25 degrees pleasant vs a 2020 flat sailing Beaatuoe (sp) Dennis