CD 36 in-mast or in-boom furling

[jparmen]

I'm thinking of converting the main on my CD36 to roller furling. Has anyone else done so? ...either to in-mast or to in-boom furling? What has your experience been?
I saw four 36's this summer which have had these conversion...two at the mast and two at the boom (Leisure Furl). The one skipper I managed to speak to was very pleased with his in-mast furling. His rig is manual, not electric, and he said it was original equipment on his 1982 boat.

[Frenchy]

If you haven't read it, here's a 20-year old article from Practical Sailor about in-boom furling. - Jean



https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails- ... ve-systems

[ghockaday]

I'm thinking of converting the main on my CD36 to roller furling. Has anyone else done so? ...either to in-mast or to in-boom furling? What has your experience been?
I saw four 36's this summer which have had these conversion...two at the mast and two at the boom (Leisure Furl). The one skipper I managed to speak to was very pleased with his in-mast furling. His rig is manual, not electric, and he said it was original equipment on his 1982 boat.

I did not read the article but it is compromises just like a furling jib. My opinion from what I see and talking with others. Other's experiences may vary. Dennis

Plus column
quick reefing
quick take down and up
maybe easier for single handing

minus column
poorly reefed sail shape
more stuff to break
I assume the boom would be huge, I don't think they do wrap around the boom anymore.

[Craig Curtis]

I'll happily vouch for the Leisurefurl which I had installed in 2007. Previously the boat had a Hood Sto-boom which as the Practical Sailor article states was the original in-boom furling system. The Leisurefurl took the well intentioned yet poorly executed idea and from my experience perfected it.

More often than not I'm sailing singlehanded and I can almost effortlessly get the main entirely furled in about 30 seconds without leaving the cockpit. (I had the halyard and boom furling line led aft into a Harken line organizer which also handles the mainsheet.)
As for raising the main, from the cockpit I can generally raise it mechanically unassisted about 3/4 of the way up prior to utilizing the manual mainsheet winch to take care of the rest. However, if with crew I generally will go to the mast to hoist it entirely with crew tailing the line in the cockpit as it's a lot easier without the friction from a couple of blocks.

As for the "minuses" cited by ghodacky:

poorly reefed sail shape: I think that comment more typically applies to in mast furling rather than in boom. You can have full horizontal battens to support a high roach main as stated in the Practical Sailor article.

more stuff to break: interesting timing for me to notice this post as just earlier today I sent an inquiry to Forespar about ordering a new sail cover for the integrated system. This has been the first and only parts/maintenance/replacement issue in 13 years.

the boom would be huge: judgment call in light of what it does. Images on the website for those unfamiliar. https://www.leisurefurl.com/offshore/

Everyday that I'm out sailing solo and see other boats with crew members sailing under jib alone helps justify that long ago expenditure a little more.

Best Regards,

Craig

[gonesail]

i would go with the in boom system because it can be easily reefed and you can have full battens. that being said it still requires some attention when furling to make sure it wraps correctly .. and for a 36 this may not be doable with one person. also if the rig gets jammed you could probably get it down without too much pain. i sailed a 40 with in boom furling and the sail shape was excellent with zero problems.

[mgphl52]

.. and for a 36 this may not be doable with one person. .

Unless I miss read the previous post, it sounds like Craig has no problem using in-boom furling single-handed on a CD40... sould work just as well on a CD36.

[wikakaru]

I'll happily vouch for the Leisurefurl which I had installed in 2007.

I'd like to offer an opposing viewpoint. I had a boat (not a Cape Dory, but I think my experience still applies) with a Leisure Furl and I hated it. The Leisure Furl was extremely sensitive to boom angle, and would jam if the boom was not at the exact right angle to get the luff tape to spiral perfectly. I made the mistake one time of adjusting the topping lift while under way for better sail shape, and regretted it ever after. To make a Leisure Furl work reliably you need a rigid vang (not the kind with a spring that reduces shock loads but a truly rigid one that positions the boom at the exact right position for furling) that has been precisely positioned. We found with our Leisure Furl that the only way to raise and lower the sail was by motoring directly into the wind. I'd be interested to hear how or if Craig surmounted those problems.

If you are still interested in a Leisure Furl, my rigger in Florida still has my old system, removed 7 years ago, just waiting for someone to buy it. PM me and I'll give you his contact information.

As a charter captain I have sailed quite a few boats with various brands of in-mast roller furling, and as a group they were less prone to jamming than the in-boom system, though they still required some babying.

When I removed the Leisure Furl, I switched to a fully-battened mainsail with a Tides Marine StrongTrack with a sail bag/lazy jack for storage. I could raise, douse or reef the mainsail on any point of sail (except dead downwind when the sail was plastered against the spreaders) in any wind speed.

My advice would be that what system you choose depends on the type of sailing you do. My experience has been that the roller furling mainsail systems are a good choice for people who use large sailboats essentially as daysailers or for very limited cruising, who tend to only go out in settled conditions, who always use the engine to point the boat into the wind when furling or unfurling the sail, who don't mind having less than optimal sail shape, and who don't mind having a really complex system that saves a little work. In the charter business they were perfect because they were relatively easy for the charterers to operate, and the charter company did all the maintenance. On the other hand, if you are interested in extended cruising where you are likely to be caught out in all kinds of weather, expect to have to make any repairs necessary at sea or in a foreign port with limited resources, and need a reliable system, my choice would be to stick to something that is simpler, even if it is slightly more work.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[gonesail]

.. and for a 36 this may not be doable with one person. .

Unless I miss read the previous post, it sounds like Craig has no problem using in-boom furling single-handed on a CD40... should work just as well on a CD36.

we needed to tension the sail as it went down or you run the chance of it winding uneven or getting jammed. in addition to having the right boom angle. i have seen them jammed and it can be pretty tough dealing with .. especially in winds or seas while underway. it's not like dropping a regular main with a tides track. but hey just one man's experience.

[wikakaru]

More often than not I'm sailing singlehanded and I can almost effortlessly get the main entirely furled in about 30 seconds without leaving the cockpit. (I had the halyard and boom furling line led aft into a Harken line organizer which also handles the mainsheet.)

We had no trouble with one person raising the main on our Leisure Furl, as the friction through the turning blocks on the furling line was sufficient to get the line to properly wrap on the furling drum, but I could not drop the sail alone--it always required two people. We found it was essential to have one person feed out the halyard at exactly the same rate as the furling line was pulled or the sail would bunch up and jam. We could never find the magic combination of partial line clutch tension or number of wraps on a winch that would keep the halyard tension correct. I guess that is because the load on the halyard changes as the sail is dropped, so the amount of friction required to control the sail changes as it is dropped.

The one time I single-handed with the Leisure furl I wound up having to drop the main onto the deck because I couldn't get the sail to drop without jamming. It was a real pain because a boom-furled mainsail has a bolt rope, so there was nothing to keep the sail contained when it was dropped.

Craig, how do you manage to keep the correct tension on the halyard when furling single handed? I'd love to know for the next time I have to sail a boat with a Leisure Furl.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[Craig Curtis]

Regarding Jim's points and followup question.

Boom angle: While Leisurefurl states that 87 degrees is the optimal angle and they recommend marking a vang or topping lift at that point I've never found my setup to be that sensitive. I tend to adjust the topping lift prior to furling and eyeball it being perpendicular to the mast (or just inside). Coming from having a Hood Sto-boom which was incredibly sensitive to boom angle whereby if it wasn't perfectly rolled up there wasn't enough room in the boom to contain all of the sail perhaps the contrast between the two systems makes me see this as less of an issue than others have experienced. The u shaped Leisurefurl boom compared to the inch or so wide slot on the Sto-Boom was a night and day difference. FYI, my boom vang is of the adjustable variety (Selden Rodkicker) as opposed to rigid.

Ease of raising and dousing: I have as a matter of practice always turned into the wind for each. I know their marketing materials have testimonials from people talking about furling on a broad reach in 40 knots and similar type stories but I believe those people generally have an electric winch-which I do not. As for furling when into the wind, yes maintaining tension on the halyard to prevent the main from getting slack in the luff is key. Not dissimilar to furling a jib when you see boats that end up with a candy cane looking furled jib because they let their sheets fly when furling. My halyard and furling line are led through two turning blocks (one at the base of the mast, the other a couple of feet back to get it in line with the line organizer just forward of the main winch.) I cleat off the halyard just aft of the winch and there's some helpful friction around the base of the winch as it's not a straight line between the organizer and cleat. When starting to furl I can maintain that tension just by easing out the halyard with my left hand while simultaneously furling with my right. So for the halyard, there's friction from the port side of the cleat, starboard side of the winch, a slightly off angle into the line organizer then the turning blocks. As it's rolled in that need to maintain some tension on the halyard is lessened due to less weight aloft and already having a lot of sail smoothly rolled up since any "problem" early would get compounded as more and more sail gets rolled onto a bunched up shape. At about half way down I don't even need to hold onto the halyard and can use both hands to quickly roll in the rest. Note, the only time I actually utilize my main winch for this system is getting that last 1/3-1/4 or so raised.

Finally, as recommended, my mainsail was designed for this system with the foot that feeds into about a four foot long slot on the drum. I can see how if one was using perhaps a loose footed main that would make it difficult to start out with a smooth rollup.

Best Regards,

Craig

[wikakaru]

Thanks, Craig.

That's interesting that we had such different experiences with the system. I wonder if something else besides operating procedures caused our Leisure Furl's finicky nature, because it sounds like we were doing pretty much the same thing as you. Perhaps our boom was under-sized and/or our sail was a thicker cloth than Leisure Furl planned on. On our system, if everything was set up correctly and we followed exactly the right procedure and had perfect conditions, we could properly furl the sail. If any little detail was off by a fraction when stowing--boom angle, halyard tension, etc--it just wouldn't fit. Perhaps a wider boom with more clearance would have been more forgiving. I wonder if the problem you had with your Hood Sto-Boom was something similar.

I still think it was the right decision in our case to switch to the Strong Track, but it would be interesting to sail on another boat with a Leisure Furl sometime and see if ours was just a one-off problem.

Anyway, thanks again for the info!

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[Craig Curtis]

Jim,

No problem. I suspect your diagnosis as to the reasons for the different experiences is correct. If you're ever in Chicago give me a heads up and I'd be happy to be that "another boat".

Smooth sailing (until our harbors close on Oct 31st)

-Craig

[John Stone]

I can’t answer the question you asked between an in-boom or in-mast furler because my view echos Jim’s. Neither.

I delivered a 58’ ketch from NC to Boston this past May. It had an in-mast furler. Hated it. Tremendous loads. You had to be very careful not to cause a bind and work the out-haul and furler just right. The boat really needed to be into the wind to reduce loads and work smoothly. Would not want to do that offshore at night. Poor shape once you start reefing. And what if it breaks. You are going to have real trouble.

Nothing beats a well made mains’l and a Strong Track. I use one on my 36 with a much bigger main than a stock boat. I’ve sailed it nearly 10,000 nautical miles...mostly offshore, mostly singlehanded. Hand over hand nearly to the top. Drops like a cannon ball. Up or down on any point of sail. Simple, robust, nothing could be more reliable. It’s going work when you are double reefing in 30 plus knots. Day or night. Rain or shine. Big wave or ripples. And you are going to have great sail shape that you control. Great sail shape means better trim. Better trim means a better balanced helm. A balanced helm is easier to steer by hand and less strain on the auto pilot. A balanced helm is a faster better behaved boat.

I grudgingly accept people want furlers but I don’t understand adding unnecessary complexity into an otherwise simple system.

[Paul D.]

The reason Furlers exist is the perceived increase of safety of changing sails from the cockpit and our relentless pursuit of leisure. I think in many cases headsail curlers are warranted. My nearly 20 y/o Harken Unit 1.5 I installed on Femme has never failed me, including reefing and completely furling up the genoa in 50 knots of wind more than once (Admittedly, I did say a little prayer first.) and 35knots just this summer. I have only flushed it with water occasionally and covered it for winter. It is a good piece of kit. Headsail furlers are certainly proven on offshore race boats. Though Still need to change sails for good shape over a wide wind range.

My main has jiffy reefing which I prefer. It has the original plastic slides (Except for the ones I've replaced over the years) and it too drops and reefs effortlessly thanks to gravity and I think a key action of spraying them and the mast slot with McLube each spring. I do the genoa luff too and both sails drop by themselves. I agree with John that this is a key safety item and just plain good seamanship.

While it is a joy to sail with hanked on sails, and I've done a lot of that, I sure Love that Harken though!

After taking in the type of sailing I would be doing, If I were interested in a furling main I would really get my hands them and try to really sail with a couple of different models before choosing to get one and which brand. I just don't think it would be a purchase I could make without that prep first.

[jparmen]

To all,

Many thanks for the thoughtfull comments, suggestions and experiences regarding in-mast and in-boom furling systems. Jean, thank you for the Practical Sailor article. I hadn't seen that. And Dennis, for succintly outlining the pros and cons. Craig's detailed description of the spectrum of sailing styles was sobering. Personally, I'm not planning on entering any foreign ports (except St. Andrews, or Grand Manaan, perhaps) and I hope not to have to do major repairs at sea. For me a month downeast of Schoodic Point will qualify as "extended" cruising. Jim's comments and Craig's replies on line tensioning were most helpful,, and I'll share them with my rigger when I next get to the yard. John....I've closely followed your blog on the refitting of "Far Reach" and I just have to say how impressive it is...and that I appreciate your comments but I know you're fitted out for, and experienced in a much more challenging league than I will even join. Keep it up! It's great to read about. Your recommendations for having simple and robust systems are certainly compelling.

Finally, Paul's general comments about furlers are most helpful. I hope to never have to use them in a 50 knot wind....or a 35 knot one, for that matter. I, too, grew up sailing with hanked on sails...Dad had a Dickerson 35 for many years. (I still have some of its sails in the basement...and he's been gone now for 25 years). But I'm 76 now, and I perceive that want to keep sailing for another decade without having to wrestle the main down by hand while balancing on the cabin top in the rain and a seaway. I've done that. Mack-Paks and Lazy Jacks are possibilities.

It turns out, however, that there are some follow-on consequences to choosing an in-boom furler for safety reasons. One consequence is that Martingale has the standard cutter rig, so, if I'm to stay in the cockpit I have to put the staysail on a furler as well. And, in order to keep that sail self-tacking...which I find really helpful in a crowded anchorage or harbor...I'll have to pull it out from the furler with a line running from the clew to a shiv at the aft end of the staysail boom and then forward again to a deck block and finally back to the cockpit. It seems the only way to no have that line interfere with the working of the staysail sheet...which would continue to operate as it does now.

So, thanks again for your coments! After all these and other conversations this summer I've decided to go for safety....and go Leisure Furling.

Jim