SYSTEM THREE BARRIER COAT

[Roger]

I will be putting a barrier coat on my Typhoon this spring and am considering epoxy from several different manufacturers.

Does anyone know anything about System Three’s resins? I believe Don Casey mentions both it and WEST SYSTEM resins in several of his books, and doing an internet search last year I remember seeing something from another manufacturer that ranked System Three ahead of the WEST SYSTEM. (If I remember right, the ranking was based on the amount of solids in the mixed product. I may be wrong.)

I've searched the board and am aware many of you have used WEST SYSTEM with "excellent" results and opinions vary on INTERLUX's 'micro-plate' resins. I'm looking to find out if anybody has any information on System Three. Apparently you buy it directly from the manufacturer, so it may be less well known than its competitors.

Thanks. Roger



rosenwalds@hotmail.com

[Kurt]

I've used System Three epoxy resin for all sorts of projects over the past 10 or more years, including a blister/barrier coat repair job on my CD26. I coated the hull with 4 gallons of it. It's very good stuff. The only drawback is that it must be purchased mail order. Have you investigated using vinylester resin instead of epoxy?



kjlgpw@aol.com

[Roger]

Kurt - thanks for your comments. As you've suggested, I've looked at vinyl ester and come up with the following:

1. I was originally planning on using 3M's two-part vinyl ester water barrier coating until they discontinued it last year. (3M still sells fillers in small cans which are vinyl ester-based but contain glass beads or fibers which can weaken the resin, reduce underwater protection, and are rather expensive.) In an email to me, 3M said they discontinued the product because they were spending too much time answering customer questions. Well, maybe, but now I don't know of a reputable company to buy the stuff from.

2. In a comparison of vinylester and epoxy, "Practical Sailor" in 1991 (repeated in 1998) said that vinyl ester was only "slightly" better than epoxy. They said later tests by others confirmed this, but "slightly" doesn't impress me much.

3. In a post here several weeks ago someone had asked a vinyl ester booster if he had any studies showing vinyl ester was better than epoxy. I don't have any studies, but I note that WEST SYSTEM has a pamphlet "Fiberglass - Boat Repairs" with a graph on page 2 showing their 105/205 product provides about 15% more moisture protection after 6 weeks of 80 degree water exposure than vinyl ester (and about 50% more than polyester). So, perhaps contrary to others, they're claiming their epoxy is better than vinyl ester.

4. In a response to a reader question in 1998, I noted that one of the editors of "Practical Sailor" used the WEST SYSTEM to put a barrier coat on his own boat rather than a vinyl ester. I figure these guys know more than me.

5. And, somewhere I've read that an epoxy resin is stronger than vinyl ester resin.

So, for those reasons, at least at this point I've ruled out vinyl ester in favor of epoxy. I've also ruled out INTERLUX epoxy because both "Practical Sailor" and SOME (not everyone) on this board have made disparaging remarks about their product.

Thanks for the suggestion, though. Roger



rosenwalds@hotmail.com

[John R.]

Kurt - thanks for your comments. As you've suggested, I've looked at vinyl ester and come up with the following:

1. I was originally planning on using 3M's two-part vinyl ester water barrier coating until they discontinued it last year. (3M still sells fillers in small cans which are vinyl ester-based but contain glass beads or fibers which can weaken the resin, reduce underwater protection, and are rather expensive.) In an email to me, 3M said they discontinued the product because they were spending too much time answering customer questions. Well, maybe, but now I don't know of a reputable company to buy the stuff from.

2. In a comparison of vinylester and epoxy, "Practical Sailor" in 1991 (repeated in 1998) said that vinyl ester was only "slightly" better than epoxy. They said later tests by others confirmed this, but "slightly" doesn't impress me much.

3. In a post here several weeks ago someone had asked a vinyl ester booster if he had any studies showing vinyl ester was better than epoxy. I don't have any studies, but I note that WEST SYSTEM has a pamphlet "Fiberglass - Boat Repairs" with a graph on page 2 showing their 105/205 product provides about 15% more moisture protection after 6 weeks of 80 degree water exposure than vinyl ester (and about 50% more than polyester). So, perhaps contrary to others, they're claiming their epoxy is better than vinyl ester.

4. In a response to a reader question in 1998, I noted that one of the editors of "Practical Sailor" used the WEST SYSTEM to put a barrier coat on his own boat rather than a vinyl ester. I figure these guys know more than me.

5. And, somewhere I've read that an epoxy resin is stronger than vinyl ester resin.

So, for those reasons, at least at this point I've ruled out vinyl ester in favor of epoxy. I've also ruled out INTERLUX epoxy because both "Practical Sailor" and SOME (not everyone) on this board have made disparaging remarks about their product.

Thanks for the suggestion, though. Roger

Hi Roger,
I believe I'm the person you referenced in your item #3. I did pose a question asking the other person about scientific written data showing the claimed vinylseter performance being superior to epoxy. I still have never seen any evidence to that point but that's history at this point. The "slightly" reference in the PS article is vague at best and anything but conclusive. Not hardly something to rely on to determine which barrier system to use and invest in.

Did the Practical Sailor tests compare plain resin to plain resin or did they add the 422 barrier coat additive to the West epoxy the way it's supposed to be done? Gougeon will tell you that the 422 barrier additive MUST be used to create a barrier coat. Just like Interprotect uses the microplates (already mixed in). I would stick my neck out at this point having not read the PS article and say the PS tests were probably just resins compared to resins. In that case maybe the Vinylester would appear "slightly" better, who knows? But add in the 422 and I would think it is an entirely different result. West barrier coating is a widely used system, it's not cheap and it's a lot of work to do it properly but I believe it is the superior way to go based on it's real world track record over the years. Interlux Interprotect has also done very well. When I've seen complaints about it the reasons for the problems don't usually have to do with the product if you catch my drift. In my judgement you can't go wrong with either system. Just do it right and be certain to get the hull "dry" and impeccably clean. Most people are to impatient to do that and then they have recurring problems and wonder why and start blaming the barrier product.

If you use the West with 422 you will need to apply 22 mils thickness minimum. Remove all the below waterline hardware like thru hulls, strainers, dynaplates etc. You must barrier coat under them or you are wasting your time and money. Only problem is you can't barrier coat inside your stern tube and still fit the cutless. Removing the rudder is a good idea but a lot of work. Those two areas are immediate compromises to any barrier coat.

Notice which hardener (205, the fast hardener) West is using in their testing report that you reference. How many folks that have had problems with a West barrier coat would you say used a 206 or 207 hardener to expand the pot life and some probably never even used the 422 additive to save a few $$. What I'm getting at here is that it isn't wise to listen to every complaint about a particular barrier coat because it is truly unknown if the product was used properly and if the application procedure was done appropriately. Word of mouth recommendations from experienced reputable local sources is your best bet to determining what is the preferred choice of barrier type product. Witnessing a properly done job will afford a wealth of valuable information that simply can't be obtained from a container label or instruction sheet.

I've barrier coated a few boats with West and a few with Interprotect. In my estimation from the service results of all those jobs either of those products are good and hold up very well. West is more work.

I can't speak for the vinylester crowd. But, if I were building a new glass boat I'd certainly use vinylester. But I'd barrier coat an older boat with high quality epoxy.

I would still bet 3M dropped the vinylester because of reasons other than too many phone calls.

Good luck Roger in whatever you use. Just be sure to have that hull prepped properly, that's a huge step.

[sloopjohnl]

roger,

although west may be a bit more work, the typhoon is not all that big.
eleven years ago i bought a ty with bad pox, stripped the gelcoat off from the top of the bootstripe to the bottom of the keel. that was the tough part. i used the west system and applied the recommended number of coats (i forget now how many) plus two coats with the barrier additive (four gallons of resin all told). the additive was gray then so it was easy to see what kind of coverage you were getting. to reduce the work be meticulous with the application. a helper is handy to help mix and then while one rolls, the other can tip off. foam or mohair roller covers and foam brushes work best. on a mild day by the time you get a coat on, step back, admire your work, have a beer then mix up another batch, you're ready to roll on the next coat. being that the typhoon only has two thru-hulls,(which i may never remove), i coated over these rather than remove them, figuring if i ever had to remove them it would not be a big deal to grind the epoxy off them for removal. haven't had a blister since, nor any other problems.
good luck with whatever you do!

I will be putting a barrier coat on my Typhoon this spring and am considering epoxy from several different manufacturers.

Does anyone know anything about System Three’s resins? I believe Don Casey mentions both it and WEST SYSTEM resins in several of his books, and doing an internet search last year I remember seeing something from another manufacturer that ranked System Three ahead of the WEST SYSTEM. (If I remember right, the ranking was based on the amount of solids in the mixed product. I may be wrong.)

I've searched the board and am aware many of you have used WEST SYSTEM with "excellent" results and opinions vary on INTERLUX's 'micro-plate' resins. I'm looking to find out if anybody has any information on System Three. Apparently you buy it directly from the manufacturer, so it may be less well known than its competitors.

Thanks. Roger

[Jim Hojlo]

I will be putting a barrier coat on my Typhoon this spring and am considering epoxy from several different manufacturers.

Does anyone know anything about System Three’s resins? I believe Don Casey mentions both it and WEST SYSTEM resins in several of his books, and doing an internet search last year I remember seeing something from another manufacturer that ranked System Three ahead of the WEST SYSTEM. (If I remember right, the ranking was based on the amount of solids in the mixed product. I may be wrong.)

I've searched the board and am aware many of you have used WEST SYSTEM with "excellent" results and opinions vary on INTERLUX's 'micro-plate' resins. I'm looking to find out if anybody has any information on System Three. Apparently you buy it directly from the manufacturer, so it may be less well known than its competitors.

Thanks. Roger

roger, i caught up with this late so you have probably already made your mind up,but here goes...west system is good for epoxy type projects ie;sealing,glueing or laying up glass,but i helped a close friend do his thirty-six according to directions with west and in three years it all peeled off,and that was after the boat had been sand blasted before application. i did another boat with interlux 2001 right to the instructions and it was not only easier to apply but has lasted for the past six years and looks like new.did five coats over two days and a first coat of bottom paint about an hour after the final coat...perfect!!!! your choice. Jim



jhojlo@ultrablend.com