Chart Plotter and Radar Update Choice

[Martinhilldpo]

There are many excellent options for electronic navigation out there, to fit any budget from the basic handheld to the most sophisticated integrated nav systems. Each one of us should pick the one that suits their style and budget. My personal preference is for simplicity and economy but that does not mean that it should be everyone. We have drifted far from the original question about what systems would be recommended.

I would however like to add one point. No matter what form of electronics you choose, if you find that you are dependent on them you should seriously consider learning some basic navigation because one day you will need it. It is neither difficult nor expensive to learn and there are numerous recreational courses and books available. One day you will be safe because you are competent at basic chartwork, magnetic compass, buoyage, tides and collision regs. Also, imho, it is much more satisfying to arrive safely using traditional navigation skills. Sure we all use the gps and radar when available but it is important to know how to use it properly and how to manage without it.

[Joe CD MS 300]

Joe, Clearly you feel more reassured when you have and use the latest chart plotter, Radar, etc. I think that’s fine. Even great. If you get pleasure using them it’s even better. At this point in my life I don’t like them. They detracts from the pleasure sailing with traditional skills provides to me. Your choice is yours and my choice is mine. Why do they have to be the same? And the day that big brother starts telling me I have to have and use electronic navigational equipment is the day you will see the Far Reach up for sale.

Carry your concern farther...let’s just make it illegal to sail offshore in anything less than 65’ or lets just make it 200’ in length and all offshore boats must have a licensed Capt. Because, well it’s just safer for everyone involved.

Technology is a tool. To be used carefully and thoughtfully. We are all basically lazy. Some more than other perhaps. It’s too easy to fall into the trap of manning the equipment instead of equipping the man. I am certainly not the only that feels this way. The Golden Globe Jubilee was just sailed with traditional skills. Small boat “raids” have become wildly popular for the some of the same reasons. Lots of people want the reward of using the traditional skills...I’m just one of them.

As my Dad used to say to me, “You pays your money and takes your chances.”

John,

You are missing my point. I’m not saying at all that you must have a GPS, just that if you have one it should be used when conditions dictate. To not use what you have available when it’s use could improve your knowledge of your position could be considered negligent if something bad happens.

My electronics are about 12 years old so I clearly don’t have or use the latest equipment. They are tools but I don’t think there is any inherent pleasure in using electronics over traditional methods. Actually using electronics can be a lot more tedious and more complicated than plotting a course on a paper chart. Some people are lazy but I do not agree that all of us are. A competent sailor should have skills in both traditional navigation and knowledge of how to use electronics.

[John Stone]

Joe, Clearly you feel more reassured when you have and use the latest chart plotter, Radar, etc. I think that’s fine. Even great. If you get pleasure using them it’s even better. At this point in my life I don’t like them. They detracts from the pleasure sailing with traditional skills provides to me. Your choice is yours and my choice is mine. Why do they have to be the same? And the day that big brother starts telling me I have to have and use electronic navigational equipment is the day you will see the Far Reach up for sale.

Carry your concern farther...let’s just make it illegal to sail offshore in anything less than 65’ or lets just make it 200’ in length and all offshore boats must have a licensed Capt. Because, well it’s just safer for everyone involved.

Technology is a tool. To be used carefully and thoughtfully. We are all basically lazy. Some more than other perhaps. It’s too easy to fall into the trap of manning the equipment instead of equipping the man. I am certainly not the only that feels this way. The Golden Globe Jubilee was just sailed with traditional skills. Small boat “raids” have become wildly popular for the some of the same reasons. Lots of people want the reward of using the traditional skills...I’m just one of them.

As my Dad used to say to me, “You pays your money and takes your chances.”

John,

You are missing my point. I’m not saying at all that you must have a GPS, just that if you have one it should be used when conditions dictate. To not use what you have available when it’s use could improve your knowledge of your position could be considered negligent if something bad happens.

My electronics are about 12 years old so I clearly don’t have or use the latest equipment. They are tools but I don’t think there is any inherent pleasure in using electronics over traditional methods. Actually using electronics can be a lot more tedious and more complicated than plotting a course on a paper chart. Some people are lazy but I do not agree that all of us are. A competent sailor should have skills in both traditional navigation and knowledge of how to use electronics.

I might have misunderstood part of what you were saying but not all of it. I don’t think it matters if you have it and don’t use it. I have a handheld GPS. Turn it on once a day for a fix to mark an x on the paper chart. I have inavex and seldom use it preferring my paper charts. On the way home I plan to return to my celestial nav roots. I guess I should throw the GPS and iPad over the side before I depart?

[Joe CD MS 300]

Just use it when it is needed not according to a schedule. (If you want to minimize any potential liability.)

[Carl Thunberg]

Context is everything. Offshore sailing is intrinsically different than near-shore sailing around submerged ledges in fog. I sail in the same area as Joe, in mid-coast Maine. We have a lot of submerged ledges, and not all of them are marked. We are also prone to thick fog. Robbed of vision and navigating around submerged ledges, marine electronics can make the difference between a safe passage and a potentially dangerous one. Fog can come in fast, so we don't always have the option of just staying put. Just so you know Joe and my reality. It helps to know the lenses we look through. On a beautiful sunny day, we may or may not even turn them on.

As for the liability aspect, I think Joe was referring to insurance companies potentially denying a claim, not guilt in a maritime court of law.

[John Stone]

Context is everything. Offshore sailing is intrinsically different than near-shore sailing around submerged ledges in fog. I sail in the same area as Joe, in mid-coast Maine. We have a lot of submerged ledges, and not all of them are marked. We are also prone to thick fog. Robbed of vision and navigating around submerged ledges, marine electronics can make the difference between a safe passage and a potentially dangerous one. Fog can come in fast, so we don't always have the option of just staying put. Just so you know Joe and my reality. It helps to know the lenses we look through.

Absolutely. I’m certainly not suggesting what anyone else should do. It’s not my place to tell other folks how they ought to sail their boats. I try to offer an alternative approach—though always tried and true, since I am not smart enough to invent anything. Different goals. Different levels of experience. Different budgets. Different skill sets. Different levels of risk acceptance. Different boats. Different environmental conditions. Different approaches to risk management. As long as you are competent and accept (hopefully happily) the first, second, third order effects of your choices then that’s what matters. I refuse to live my life in fear of litigation. People get sued even when they have all the gear and equipment and do everything right. My wise old Granddad had a saying about lawyers but I’ll leave that conversation for the bar and a round of Guinness. In the meantime equip, maintain, sail, and navigate your boat in as competent a manner as you can and above all experience the joy and freedom that sailing offers.

Happy sailing, navigating, varnishing, etc etc.

[Joe CD MS 300]

Context is everything. Offshore sailing is intrinsically different than near-shore sailing around submerged ledges in fog. I sail in the same area as Joe, in mid-coast Maine. We have a lot of submerged ledges, and not all of them are marked. We are also prone to thick fog. Robbed of vision and navigating around submerged ledges, marine electronics can make the difference between a safe passage and a potentially dangerous one. Fog can come in fast, so we don't always have the option of just staying put. Just so you know Joe and my reality. It helps to know the lenses we look through.

Absolutely. I’m certainly not suggesting what anyone else should do. It’s not my place to tell other folks how they ought to sail their boats. I try to offer an alternative approach—though always tried and true, since I am not smart enough to invent anything. Different goals. Different levels of experience. Different budgets. Different skill sets. Different levels of risk acceptance. Different boats. Different environmental conditions. Different approaches to risk management. As long as you are competent and accept (hopefully happily) the first, second, third order effects of your choices then that’s what matters. I refuse to live my life in fear of litigation. People get sued even when they have all the gear and equipment and do everything right. My wise old Granddad had a saying about lawyers but I’ll leave that conversation for the bar and a round of Guinness. In the meantime equip, maintain, sail, and navigate your boat in as competent a manner as you can and above all experience the joy and freedom that sailing offers.

Happy sailing, navigating, varnishing, etc etc.

My intention was not to instill fear of litigation in anyone, only to be aware of the risks. That is a big difference. Carl's post is right on.

[Bob Ohler]

In my opinion, go with B & G, Zeus 3 and B & G radar. This is a product designed and programmed strictly for the sailor. B & G engineering is the best in class.

There is nothing wrong with Garmin, but B & G would be my choice.

I would NOT buy Raymarine on a dare! Their customer service is deplorable. Their reps are equally as bad.

(I deal with all three of these manufacturers on a regular basis.)

Good luck with your decision!

[gates_cliff]

I don't intend for the following to be self serving but it's germane to this conversation. First I am nowhere near as experienced or qualified as most of you on here, second I, like John, love to use paper charts, parallel rulers, triangles, etc.

I was helping take a 40' Bavaria to the VI a number of years ago. The owner had installed every piece of electronic equipment available. He even had a big flat screen TV attached in the main salon and could project the chart plotter on it! So one evening nearing dusk we see one of the big boys booming along at, I'd guess, 25 knots or so. We could see it, but clearly he couldn't see us and if we continued course and speed it would have been too close for comfort, no problem, we just adjust course to avoid him. Right? Nope, the owner shouted "Stop the boat"! I think, are you kidding me, I ain't stopping the boat, it wasn't my watch anyway, but I got up and shut off the autopilot and altered course and said as politely as I could "I'm not stopping the goddamn boat, I'm altering course to starboard so as to pass Port to Port!"

Next, we finally get to the BVI and it's about 2000 hours. My watch would be 2400 to 0400 but I suggested we just stand off, heave to, or sail back and forth until first light. Nope, the owner who was also a private pilot insisted that if he could land a small plane at night in a rain storm he could plot a course to Tortola. So he goes below and puts in what he thinks will get us there. So at 2400 I go on watch and am looking at the course we have on autopilot. Since I had sailed there before I had a pretty good idea where Virgin Gorda was and we could see lights from Tortola. I also remembered that "The Dogs" would be off to port. Something about the course just didn't feel right, so I took a look at the track he had put in for us and I swear this is true, if we had stayed on it we would have run smack into one of the smaller Dogs, don't recall which. I switched off autopilot and hand steered the rest of the way. I never said anything to the pompous ass owner but did mention it to another guy that was crewing.

I say all this to reinforce that all the latest and greatest doesn't do much good if you don't use it properly. I like cool stuff and enjoy gadgets, but up until now have relied on dead reckoning, and had an old hand held GPS, which I rarely used. Nonetheless, I decided I ought to join this century. I guess someday, I'll get radar and autopilot! I haven't single handed or taken my boat offshore but would like to. At my advancing age, I'm not sure I have the time.