Jib Shaking on CD 25

[Ben Miller]

You said your jib is new. Did the sailmaker see your boat, or at least photos of it, before they made the sail? It should have been designed in such a way that it would be properly trimmable using the hardware currently on your boat. Maine Buzzard already mentioned this, but it's probably worth talking to the sailmaker and see what they have to say.

As a couple of posters have mentioned, with a smaller jib (100% or less) you most likely would want to sheet the jib to a different set of blocks/fairleads than the ones set up for the genoa (the ones you're using). If your boat doesn't currently have anything installed, maybe a previous owner removed it. My Typhoon has jib leads on top of the coach roof and it sounds like some of the other posters in the thread have the same setup.

[mgphl52]

Yes, both of my Ty's had cabin-top leads for the working jib, but to my best re-collection, neither of my CD25's had such.

[John Stone]

The problem with a cabin top jib track or lead on a full keel boat is the temptation to try and sail the boat too close to the wind. Pinching these boats is very detrimental to upwind efficiency. The boat will sail slower with more side slip. I struggle with it occasionally too when I am try to get upwind and have to remind myself I’ll get there sooner if I ease off a bit and let the sails breath. While you can sometimes eek out a few more degrees in flat water without too much harm, doing so into any kind of headseas is futile. This is one area where fin keel boats and inboard shrouds have an advantage. But offshore, they also have to ease off as well.

You can’t turn a Labrador retriever into a greyhound no matter how hard you try.

John Ring probably has some valuable insights since he has successfully raced his CD 36 to Bermuda a couple times.

[Nebe]

I cannot deny that my halyards are too loose. I will work on that in future sails. As for the jib leads, several have suggested that I move them forward. I cannot. The blocks are as far forward in the tracks as they will go. There is no other hardware available to handle the sheets on the boat. If anyone has any pictures of how they run their jib sheets on a CD 25 or similar boat, I would love to see them. I will try to work out a new system for next spring.

This week I will work on fine tuning the standing rigging. As suggested, I will most likely hire a professional rigger to do the job in the spring.

Thanks again for all the responses. They have been most helpful.

Chris

Buy a winch handle. When you raise your sails, pull them up by hand until you can't any more, throw 3 wraps on the winch and give the winch about a 1/4 turn more. If you ever see "scalloping" in the luff of your sails, the halyard is too loose. A downhaul attached to your boom or at an eye above your tack will also help with a loose luff.
If you have jib leads on your canon trunk, use them as they are in the correct position for a small working jib.

oh.. and have fun

[Megunticook]

Useful video and very interesting thread here.

I, too noticed the windward shrouds seemed to be flopping around a bit. Odd, those should be taut in a strong wind like that as the mast is getting pulled over by the force on the sail. I had a pro rig my boat the second season to show me what it should look/feel/perform like, then I bought a Loos gauge and do it myself now. It's tempting to undertighten (last year my leeward shrouds would visibly slacken in strong wind), but my understanding is this stresses the rig unecessarily. Unless you have structural issues with your boat, you can go as high as 15% breaking strength without worrying--on my fractional rig, to get my mast set right my forestay is at almost 20%.

Totally agree, too, that you will go faster in strong winds with much less stress on the boat (not to mention your passengers!) if you reef the main. In gusty 20 knots plus on anything but close-hauled I've found that the reefed main with no foresail is just as fast as with the working jib.

Is your main halyard non-stretch line? That definitely helps you haul it tight.

Have fun...September/early October is the best sailing in New England, if you don't mind the cooler breezes.

[casampson]

I went out to my boat today to tinker with my outboard and I noticed a couple of interesting things. First, there is a CD 25 right next to mine that is a few years newer. It is set up exactly like mine, with no blocks on the coach roof or elsewhere for the jib sheets. Both boats do have a fairlead on each side of the boat, on the deck, just about amidships. I tried routing the sheets outside of the shrouds and into these fairleads, then back to the winches and cleats, but it did not work at all. We could not sheet in sufficiently. I wonder, however, if I ran my sheets inside the shrouds to the fairleads and then aft, if it would work. Any thoughts?

The most interesting thing I observed was that my standing rigging does seem to be too loose. All of it, especially the four lower shrouds. This may be the primary source of the problem, and I'm going to tighten it all up before I go out again. The boat was rigged when I bought it, and I assumed it was rigged properly. Perhaps the boatyard loosened the standing rigging for winter storage. I don't know, but I should have checked it more closely.

Chris

[Megunticook]

I wonder, however, if I ran my sheets inside the stays to the fairleads and then aft, if it would work. Any thoughts?

I have a TySenior (22' hull with a fractional rig), so it may be different, but my jib sheets run inside the shrouds, through blocks mounted on the deck roughly midship as you say. I drew an arrow on this brochure photo since my boat is down in the harbor and I'm at home at the moment:



If I use my big genoa, I have to run the sheets outside the shrouds however to some blocks mounted on the rail just forward of the winches.

The most interesting thing I observed was that my standing rigging does seem to be too loose. All of it, especially the four lower shrouds. This may be the primary source of the problem, and I'm going to tighten it all up before I go out again. The boat was rigged when I bought it, and I assumed it was rigged properly. Perhaps the boatyard loosened the standing rigging for winter storage. I don't know, but I should have checked it more closely.

My original CD owner's manual is a little vague, but says basically the rigging should move "an inch or so" if you apply moderate pressure with your hand. It should feel pretty firm, though. From what I see and hear it's common for people to have their rigging too loose, but going by what the rigger showed me and what I read on rigging manufacturers websites, it's not good if the wire is getting "shock loaded" all the time. It should stay taut even in a stiff wind.

I'll emphasize again that less sail is easier on everything and often faster on very breezy days. Experiment with reefing, and see what the boat does. As I said, even sometimes the reefed main alone can be a great setup when reaching in high winds, as it allows the boat to stand up and keep her footing.

[casampson]

Thank you, Megunticook. That pretty much solves the mystery in my mind. So here's my to-do list:

1) Tighten up loose standing rigging before I go out again.
2) Run the jib sheets inside the shrouds, through the fairleads on the deck, and back to the winches and cleats in the cockpit.
3) Find a way to tighten up on my halyards for both the jib and the main.
4) Learn how to reef my main.
5) Practice reefing while hove to.
6) Have fun.

This is quite a list of important items, and I thank everyone for contributing. I will report back to the forum after I make these changes to see what kind of effect they will have had.

Chris

[casampson]

I do have one more question:

Should the winch on my mast be used to raise the jib or the main? It is on the port side, and right now the jib halyard is also on the port side. But, when I bought the boat, the main halyard was on the port side. We switched them on the journey to Marion.

Chris

[mgphl52]

I believe the CD25 should have a 'floating' goose neck. If so, you should have a multi-purchase down haul attached to it.
If your boat is rigged this way, release the down haul, raise the main full hoist by hand and then adjust luff tension with the down haul.
And, yes, use the winch for your jib.

[SAIL1]

I have experienced the same issue in high wind(20+) situations especially when pointing high into the wind....I do not see the windward shrouds in the video as being too loose .....what I do see is that they are vibrating(which does not indicate that they are loose)...anyway it defies the law of physics that the windward shrouds would be flopping around..
as others have mentioned running the jib lines inside the shrouds may help....20+ wind conditions would indicate to me a double reef in the main...too much sail area in high winds only leads to hydrodynamic and aerodynamic turbulence and does not always result in greater speed....
what I see is local aerodynamic turbulence at the leading edge of the jib caused by the stretching of the jib between the attachment points and is not a clean consistent leading edge of an airfoil,,,,the reason the same issue does not occur on the main is that it has the mast acting as the leading edge which stays consistent....tightening up on the jib halyard may help to eliminate some of this, but you end up evetually chasing your tail as the wind speed increases....
I personally would learn how to reef the main preferably before I go out...one can always let out a reef later on when one gets a feel for the conditions....

[Steve Laume]

"anyway it defies the law of physics that the windward shrouds would be flopping around".

This is possible if the cap shrouds are taking the load and there is not enough mast bend to bring, very loose, lowers completely into the equation. Our mast sections are pretty stout so this could easily become the case. It would be interesting to go out in strong winds with the current set up and sight up the mast. I would be betting on some pretty significant bend to leeward in the center section.

Chris, I think you are going to enjoy your boat a whole lot more once you follow a few of these suggestions, Steve.

[Maine_Buzzard]

Regarding the inability to tension halyards- what kind of knots and fittings are on the halyards? Long bowline loops will stop in the sheeves and leave the sails loose.

A swivel shackle for the jib and a long D shackle with captured pin, both spliced into the lines will hoist about as high as possible.

Hoist the sails at the dock and look at the masthead. Are they all the way up? Preferably on a calm morning...

[casampson]

Not sure what kind of fittings on my halyards, as I haven't been out to the boat in a while and I don't really recall. The jib has a wire cable at the jib end spliced into a rope, if that makes a difference. Both halyards seem overly large, however, being about a half-inch in diameter. They barely fit on the cleats.

Also, regarding rigging, all of the turnbuckles on my standing rigging are the closed barrel type. I imagine I should change them all for next spring. In the meantime, where does one get the special tool needed to tighten these turnbuckles up?

[Carl Thunberg]

I just noticed no one answered your last question, so here goes. There are no special tools required to adjust closed barrel turnbuckles. Two small adjustable wrenches will do the trick. Look closely, and you will see a flat spot to receive the wrench. You will need to grip the swage as you adjust the turnbuckle, or the shroud will just spin. Don't forget to loosen the locking nuts before adjusting. Unfortunately, you cannot use a cotter pin to lock close barrel turnbuckles because the hole in the center of the barrel has no threads. The only way I have found to keep closed turnbuckles from backing off over time is to double up on the locking nuts and use rigging tape over the nuts. Remember to remove the tape at the end of each season, and replace it in the spring. Tape has a nasty habit of sealing water in, and stainless steel needs oxygen.

For what it's worth, the foot on your jib is cut way high off the deck, almost like a Yankee. Cutter-rigged boats have a Yankee that allows the foot of the jib to tack through the slot between the self-tacking staysail and the forestay. My former CD25 never experienced the problems you are experiencing. Is this your only jib? Under moderate conditions, a 135 genoa works really well for a CD25. That may be a "wish list" item for the future. We've thrown a lot of information in your direction, but you've been given some excellent advice.