Rudder adjustment???

[MFC]

Hi. I am worried that the rudder on my 330 is sitting hard on the rudder shoe. At the top end, it rests about 1" below the keel where the rudder post enters the boat. With a long board as a lever, I can lift the rudder up that full inch (so that it touches the keel on the top edge). I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be like this. Is the heel shoe worn out? Is there an interior adjustment which holds the rudder higher by the post??? Help!!! I will post pics as soon as i figure out how to do that from my phone. TIA
Matt

[Paul D.]

Femme's seems to be like that too, though I've never tried to pry it up. It has maybe just under an inch up the top. I don't think there is a bearing within the hull for the rudder to sit on as it needs to be able to come out (There will be a stop collar though on the shaft thugh.) so yes, most of the load would be on the bronze rudder shoe. That load would be somewhat less when immersed. The rudder shoes are strongly attached as several stories on this board attest to. Here is some info from Far Reach's rudder removal and a photo of Femme's rudder. Yeah, yeah, the bootstripe needs repainting.

http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... rsion.html

[MFC]

Thanks Paul. A surveyor in the yard where I was having the bottom painted commented to one of the labors that the rudder shoe looked worn and was dangerous. I don't know, maybe he was just trying to drum up some work. I spoke to him about it today face to face, and he backed off that assessment (some of the glass used to Fair around the shoe is delaminating so that may have prompted his comments). Still the amount of play from top to bottom is a bit disconcerting. I wish I understood how far into the shoe the bottom of the rudder post extends. The idea of installing some sort of split Delrin bearing down there is appealing. All in all my boat work list is pretty darn long and I'm happy not to add to it at the moment. Got to get some sailing in! Thanks again. Stay warm everybody!

[John Stone]

MFC,
Can you post a picture of the rudder shoe. Or maybe a short video of what you are seeing? That would help a lot.

Fiberglass delaminating? What that might be is the glass laid over the bronze shoe not sticking to the bronze. Not necessarily an issue. But a picture would help readers better understand the issue.

I don’t remember the exact measurement but On the Far Reach the pin is pressed into the bronze shoe about an inch. The male end is about three inches proud of the shoe. There should be a stop collar on the ruddershaft inside the boat that you can raise if you want and that will prevent the top of the rudder from hitting the bottom of the boat.

On my boat there are (3) or (4) 3/8” diameter bronze pins driven ‘thwartship through the shoe and through the bottom aft end of the keel holding the shoe on. They are all peened over on both ends. All that is covered with glass. The pictures are in the link Paul posted.

This maybe a non issue but I can’t offer more than that with out seeing what you see.

[MFC]

MFC,
Can you post a picture of the rudder shoe. Or maybe a short video of what you are seeing? That would help a lot.

Hi John
I just got home. I think I can manage some pics here . . . I am not so slick on my phone. Give me a few minutes and I'll try to post a pic or two.

On the Far Reach the pin is pressed into the bronze shoe about an inch. The male end is about three inches proud of the shoe.

That measurement is very helpful. Thanks!

Matt

[MFC]

Man . . . sometimes I hate digital cameras. Along with the projects already on my list, this pretty much kills any thought of Spring 18 cruising . . .

This is the delamination of the fairing material from the shoe (a non issue except in that the rudder pressing against the glass and fairing material probably led to the delamination).



Taken from port side (with the rudder lifted away from the shoe). The keel and shoe are on the bottom left. The rudder is on the right. You can see the pin which appears clean from this angle. I assume the raised cylinder around the pin is from the press (?). You can see the trailing edge of the rudder extends below the shoe (indicating that the front portion is wearing from grinding on the shoe???)



Here is where (wear) it starts getting bad . . . I am not sure how it is constructed (what is glass and what is metal) but the bottom edge of the rudder and the sleeve (?) that accept the pin are in rough shape. Also unclear if there is corrosion in the pin itself or if that is the rudder which is compromised.





Perhaps the worst of it all is that I have been worried (and happily allowed myself to forget) about suspected crevice corrosion in the post at the top of the rudder. I suspect that if I dismantle all of this, I will be looking at a 3500 rudder on top of the labor and incidentals . . .. :/

I can't imagine there is much to be said that is encouraging, but I am all ears.

Matt

[John Stone]

Hi Matt
I only have my phone at the moment. But tonight or tomorrow I'll take a look at the pictures on a bigger screen then reply.

Quick questions: what are your sailing plans for the summer? Will you haul out next year? Is your boat in a boat yard or at at your home?

[John Stone]

Three more questions--where is the boat? Up north or in the South etc? And have you looked under the bottom edge of the rudder along its full length? What do you see?

My rudder was split open from one end to the under on the bottom.

[MFC]

Hi John -
The boat is in NC (I am 7 hours away from there but will be headed down for as long as 2 weeks as soon as the weather breaks). I will bring her north (probably to the top of the Chesapeake) as soon as she is ready to make that run. I had been toying with a Beaufort / Bermuda / Cape May run in late May or early June but the "to do" list, even aside from the rudder issue, is looking pretty long and pretty pricey. I recall a long seam in the bottom of the rudder but not an open split. I didn't look under there this time. As for the winters, I have not been hauling out in NC -- but I did this winter because I needed bottom paint and I have to attend to some other details. Turns out to have been a good choice since they are having the coldest winter any one down there can remember.

Did you repair the split in your rudder? What type of materials will I find if I open up the lower end of the rudder? I am a fiberglass novice but ready to learn more . . ..

Matt

[John Stone]

Matt,
Where is your boat hauled out in NC? I am in NC . . . not too far from Beaufort. If its not too far I might be able to take a look.

I don't understand when you say there is a seam but not a split. Is it open enough to allow water in? Or is it closed?

Yes, I repaired the split--see the link Paul included in his comments above. That link depicts my rudder removal, rebuild, and reinstallation--lots of photos. It also shows the split in the bottom of the rudder. I took the rudder off, ground open the split, turned the rudder upside down, poured epoxy in, then patched the split with epoxy and biaxial, then faired smooth.

These rudders are built in two halves. There is foam in there. Then, the two halves were glassed together around the SS rudder post.

I suspect most CD rudders have water in them so if your rudder has or has had water in it that does not necessarily mean it is likely to fail. I've never heard of a shoe coming off. I have never heard of a rudder post failure in a CD. It's a one piece solid post bent in the middle in a "C" shape to accommodate the propeller aperture. It's very strongly built. I suspect most of the rudder posts have some crevice corrosion as our boats are 30-40 years old.

That is not to say the rudder is fine. We need to know more.

A rudder rebuild is a big job if you do it yourself--but it's doable if you take your time and are not afraid of some hard physical work (you either have to dig a big hole under the boat or have the travel lift pick the boat up and then drop the rudder) and time invested in shaping, grinding, sanding, fairing, etc. When it's time to replace my rudder I will do it myself. It is many times less expensive to build it yourself. And the sad thing is I have seen so much shoddy work in the marine industry I would not trust my life to most boatyard work. That means, for me, it's a DIY project. There are of course great boatyards out there, I just don't know any I would trust without reservation.

Other than some epoxy fairing and a little tabbing and simply grinding, it will be much easier for you if the boat is on the hard near your home vice many hours away. There is a high probability you can get your boat to the north end of the Chesapeake as it.

I got a few things to do today but baring any additional info, I'll take a closer look at the above photos and comment more then.

[MFC]

Thanks John! When I looked at looked at your photos, I was focused on the immediate issue of trying to understand the way the shoe worked. I will take more time and go over your whole project. Based on your comments, and after I figure out the scope, I will give some real thought to whether I have the time and skills to tackle whatever the rudder repairs.

My boat is just outside New Bern on the Neuse River. I have been based out of Northwest Creek Marina in Fairfield Harbor for the past few years but am currently hauled at Duck Creek Small Boat Harbor. There is a fantastic variety of local sailing there but it is so far from home . . ..

Thanks for the info on the construction and your thoughts on the various degrees of problems and overall strength. I will see if I can have one of the yard hands send me a photo of the bottom edge of the rudder. Also, the encouragement is much appreciated!

Best,
Matt

[John Stone]

Matt
Duck Creek is not far from us. It's about 20 miles from where we keep the Far Reach. Let me know when you are going to the boat and if you like I can meet you there.

[Randy Capstick]

Matt,

You may want to send John Ring a PM and ask him about his experience on Rudder/Shoe removal and repair. I'm pretty sure he had a detailed description on his website about it, but can't seem to access it now.

Randy

[Paul D.]

Matt,

Mike Ritenour, a CD33 named La Vida former owner, made a new rudder for her a few years ago. If you do intend to rebuild and are not doing it yourself, I think he used Foss Foam and they should now have a plan for the exact one. Try searching this board for more info. If I remember rightly he was pretty happy with their work. Hopefully you won't need one but Good luck!

[MFC]

Thanks Paul. I spoke to Foss a week or two ago. They are significantly more expensive now than they were a couple of years ago. I think with shipping and all it was going to run in the range of $3,500. I won't say that's off the table but I'm hopeful that there will be a solution short of that. I'll keep you posted and of course be picking your brains.

Best,
Matt