I am considering purchasing a Cape Dory 30. I had been leaning toward a cutter when I came upon messages at this site discussing the difficulty of tacking the cutter when using a genoa (e.g., partially furling in the genoa while tacking, etc.). I sail single-handed frequently (I am currently the proud owner of a CD25). Perhaps the ketch-rigged CD30 would be better suited for single-handed sailng? Does the ketch perform as well as the cutter? I have read that ketches in general do not perform as well to windward as cutters and sloops. I would appreciate any advice and/or sharing of experience from owners of both cutters and ketches.
Mike O'Connor
moconnor62@yahoo.com
CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
As an CD30 <cutter> owner and advocate, my opinion will be slanted towards my choice. My reasoning is as follows; The cutter rig breaks the rig up into 3 pieces, each smaller than that found on the sloop rig..making a shorthanded crew's work easier and safer. The cutter rig is far more versatile in high wind management due to the increased number of sail choices possible. Safety is enhanced as the wind pipes up also, because as the sails are reefed, then doused, deck activity is kept more to the center of the boat, rather than at the bow end, which may be going through 10 ft. of vertical movement!
"But I asked about a ketch rig!"
True enough..the ketch is a good downwind rig, with that advantage extending into reaching..but come to beating and it is at a slight disadvantage over the other two choices. You will not point well..and that can be an irritation..or not (depends on how much windward work you need to do I guess).
On the CD30 ketch, my only negative is that the boat is already a small boat by comparison to any other 30 out there. The ketch rigging and mast take up a lot of room in the cockpit, which is already a "4 person max" cockpit. In the examples I know of, the owners love the boat and her look, but complain about the lack of cockpit room and the difficulty tacking when guests are aboard and have to get around the mast repeatedly.
Every boat is a grand compromise, and this is no exception. I made the compromise of a smaller over-all boat (CD30 cutter rig) for a well built solid and fast boat of high quality and great heart. In 12 years now, and ~14,000 miles on the log, I am still inlove with the boat, and it is my life..even away from water. It will be so for you too, if you listen to your head and your heart. You gota love the way she looks and feels or it's not a match. If you can accept the limited performance of a ketch on the wind, increased rigging and complexity due to that mizzen mast, increased cost to take the mast(s) down, maintenance costs for that rigging and it's spars, then you are on your way to being a boat owner!
As far as tacking a cutter rigged CD30, it is something we do perhaps 50 times a weekend! Sometimes Jan is up in the cockpit and helps handle the sheets while I con the helm (or the reverse), and sometimes, I single hand her myself with Jan reading, cooking, sunbathing or whatever..
The technique that we came up with is to partialy roll-in the genoa..1/3 of the way works for us. This is done while tacking through the eye of the wind. When the wind fills the main, we roll out the 1/3 genoa that we took in, and that pocket will then pull the rest of the sail through to the other side. It takes all of 30 sec. to do single handed..or less if the wind is up past 15 kts. In 15kts and greater, the sail will self-tack across to the other side.
Again..a compromise is made and accepted -or not. I am here to tell you that the practice IS NOT arduous or difficult. So do not reject the cutter on this basis alone. You need to have a better reason than that I feel, as we have proven that it is not hard to tack in all winds, over and over again. The additional safety that this rig provides while experiencing high winds is also a big shorthanded safety factor.
Still the ketch looks so neat on the horizon......sigh.
Compromises are sure fun, heh? ;^)
Good Choosing and Best of Luck!
Larry DeMers
s/v DelaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~It's gettin' warmer outside! Come-on spring!~~~~
demers@sgi.com
"But I asked about a ketch rig!"
True enough..the ketch is a good downwind rig, with that advantage extending into reaching..but come to beating and it is at a slight disadvantage over the other two choices. You will not point well..and that can be an irritation..or not (depends on how much windward work you need to do I guess).
On the CD30 ketch, my only negative is that the boat is already a small boat by comparison to any other 30 out there. The ketch rigging and mast take up a lot of room in the cockpit, which is already a "4 person max" cockpit. In the examples I know of, the owners love the boat and her look, but complain about the lack of cockpit room and the difficulty tacking when guests are aboard and have to get around the mast repeatedly.
Every boat is a grand compromise, and this is no exception. I made the compromise of a smaller over-all boat (CD30 cutter rig) for a well built solid and fast boat of high quality and great heart. In 12 years now, and ~14,000 miles on the log, I am still inlove with the boat, and it is my life..even away from water. It will be so for you too, if you listen to your head and your heart. You gota love the way she looks and feels or it's not a match. If you can accept the limited performance of a ketch on the wind, increased rigging and complexity due to that mizzen mast, increased cost to take the mast(s) down, maintenance costs for that rigging and it's spars, then you are on your way to being a boat owner!
As far as tacking a cutter rigged CD30, it is something we do perhaps 50 times a weekend! Sometimes Jan is up in the cockpit and helps handle the sheets while I con the helm (or the reverse), and sometimes, I single hand her myself with Jan reading, cooking, sunbathing or whatever..
The technique that we came up with is to partialy roll-in the genoa..1/3 of the way works for us. This is done while tacking through the eye of the wind. When the wind fills the main, we roll out the 1/3 genoa that we took in, and that pocket will then pull the rest of the sail through to the other side. It takes all of 30 sec. to do single handed..or less if the wind is up past 15 kts. In 15kts and greater, the sail will self-tack across to the other side.
Again..a compromise is made and accepted -or not. I am here to tell you that the practice IS NOT arduous or difficult. So do not reject the cutter on this basis alone. You need to have a better reason than that I feel, as we have proven that it is not hard to tack in all winds, over and over again. The additional safety that this rig provides while experiencing high winds is also a big shorthanded safety factor.
Still the ketch looks so neat on the horizon......sigh.
Compromises are sure fun, heh? ;^)
Good Choosing and Best of Luck!
Larry DeMers
s/v DelaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~It's gettin' warmer outside! Come-on spring!~~~~
Michael O'Connor wrote: I am considering purchasing a Cape Dory 30. I had been leaning toward a cutter when I came upon messages at this site discussing the difficulty of tacking the cutter when using a genoa (e.g., partially furling in the genoa while tacking, etc.). I sail single-handed frequently (I am currently the proud owner of a CD25). Perhaps the ketch-rigged CD30 would be better suited for single-handed sailng? Does the ketch perform as well as the cutter? I have read that ketches in general do not perform as well to windward as cutters and sloops. I would appreciate any advice and/or sharing of experience from owners of both cutters and ketches.
Mike O'Connor
demers@sgi.com
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Bob Pence
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
I sailed a 1978 CD30K from 1983 to 1989 and loved her. She was beautiful when her red, white, and blue drifter and mizzen staysail were out plus main and mizzen on a broad reach. I didn't buy a CD to race. 2nd boat was a Pearson 365 Ketch which I sailed from 89 to 96 when I lost her in hurricane Bertha, she was also a great boat, more space and amenities. Followed this with a CD36 Cutter which was a beautiful boat but I much preferred the ketch rig. I single handed both ketchs many a day. Singlehanded the Pearson from Florida to N.C. with nary a problem. Am boatless at present but looking for either a CD30k or a Pearson 365 K. When singlehanding and the weather turns to snot, just drop the main on the ketch and go on the jigger and the jib.Michael O'Connor wrote: I am considering purchasing a Cape Dory 30. I had been leaning toward a cutter when I came upon messages at this site discussing the difficulty of tacking the cutter when using a genoa (e.g., partially furling in the genoa while tacking, etc.). I sail single-handed frequently (I am currently the proud owner of a CD25). Perhaps the ketch-rigged CD30 would be better suited for single-handed sailng? Does the ketch perform as well as the cutter? I have read that ketches in general do not perform as well to windward as cutters and sloops. I would appreciate any advice and/or sharing of experience from owners of both cutters and ketches.
Mike O'Connor
sixpence@dmv.com
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Gary McDonough
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
Mike,
I agree with basically everthing Larry said. 2001 will be my 3rd season with my 30'cutter and I love the rig. My boat came with a 150 genoa and, in order to tack, I would have to roll the majority of it in. I personally didn't like this option and ultimately ordered a new yankee. The beauty of the Yankee is its manageable size and, because of its high cut, the ability to have unilimited visibility at tremendous angles of heeling. Even with the rail in the water. The problem with a big jib sometimes is that a crew member practically has to climb into the water for visibility and lookout purposes.
The negative to the Yankee is its downwind performance, especially in light winds. After two seasons of frustration (at times), I've ordered an asymetrical spinnaker which should make a big difference this season.
To follow-up what Larry says, the cutter rig has endless possibilities for sail combinations and is extremely easy to solo sail.
I have never sailed the Ketch version but I did see one at a Cape Dory rendezvous and it is a very nice looking boat (but aren't they all?).
Good luck,
Gary
garym@taxinvest.com
I agree with basically everthing Larry said. 2001 will be my 3rd season with my 30'cutter and I love the rig. My boat came with a 150 genoa and, in order to tack, I would have to roll the majority of it in. I personally didn't like this option and ultimately ordered a new yankee. The beauty of the Yankee is its manageable size and, because of its high cut, the ability to have unilimited visibility at tremendous angles of heeling. Even with the rail in the water. The problem with a big jib sometimes is that a crew member practically has to climb into the water for visibility and lookout purposes.
The negative to the Yankee is its downwind performance, especially in light winds. After two seasons of frustration (at times), I've ordered an asymetrical spinnaker which should make a big difference this season.
To follow-up what Larry says, the cutter rig has endless possibilities for sail combinations and is extremely easy to solo sail.
I have never sailed the Ketch version but I did see one at a Cape Dory rendezvous and it is a very nice looking boat (but aren't they all?).
Good luck,
Gary
garym@taxinvest.com
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Joe Wysong
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
Our CD 330 is cutter rig and we solved the light winds problem by replacing the original CD staysail with a Berig Camberspar rig. The staysail boom is wishbone shaped and fixed in a pocket sewn at an angle about a third of the way up the sail. Thus, the sail always holds its shape and catches the wind instantly when you come about.Michael O'Connor wrote: I am considering purchasing a Cape Dory 30. I had been leaning toward a cutter when I came upon messages at this site discussing the difficulty of tacking the cutter when using a genoa (e.g., partially furling in the genoa while tacking, etc.). I sail single-handed frequently (I am currently the proud owner of a CD25). Perhaps the ketch-rigged CD30 would be better suited for single-handed sailng? Does the ketch perform as well as the cutter? I have read that ketches in general do not perform as well to windward as cutters and sloops. I would appreciate any advice and/or sharing of experience from owners of both cutters and ketches.
Mike O'Connor
It also keeps the staysail boom off the deck so the sail itself serves as the topping luft.
The one thing you don't want on a cutter rigged CD is a genoa wrapped around the forestay. It pushes the boat off the point something fierce.
Joe
tgjournal@gestalt.org
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Murray Glue
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
Cutter for sure. The CD30 is too small to warrant a ketch rig. We sailed into port last night under full main and yankee, in 20 knots,
hard on the wind, and put in 10 tacks in fine style coming up the channel. The genoa can be a hassle but for tacking to windward, the
yankee is more likely to be set.
The cutter is my choice of rig up to 40 feet or even 45.
106452.2173@compuserve.com
hard on the wind, and put in 10 tacks in fine style coming up the channel. The genoa can be a hassle but for tacking to windward, the
yankee is more likely to be set.
The cutter is my choice of rig up to 40 feet or even 45.
106452.2173@compuserve.com
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Joe Mac Phee
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
Mike,
I think that you could single hand either the cutter or the ketch easily. If you are a lazy single hander, like me, consider the ketch. My ketch has a 135 genoa or a club footed jib on a Harken furler, a main with lazy jacks, mizzen (lazy jacks), mule, mizzen staysail, and assymetric spinnaker (with sock). My working sails when on the wind (from 5 to 15 knots) are the working jib, main, mizzen, and mule. I routinely sail this boat on and off the mooring in a crowded harbor with this suite, close hauled into our prevailing SW wind. The entire rig is self tacking, you turn the wheel, a miracle occurs, and you are on the other tack. You never take the covers off the winches! I do not usualy use the genoa or the mizzen staysail when sailing alone. The assymetric spinnaker is a fun sail when off the wind and is manageable when you have the stuff sock. My autopilot is handy when raising or lowering the sspinnaker.
When you are on the wind, it is almost always possible to get the boat to sail herself for long periods of time by trimming either the jib or the mizzen. In confused seas, she may need help from the autopilot.
When the wind pipes up, it is easy to reduce sail by removing sails from the inventory. In heavy winds, she sails very comfortable and balanced with jib and jigger (working jib and mizzen).
Under 5 knots, with this rig, you are motoring or motor-sailing.
With a crew, she is quite a sight with all of the sails flying. You can put quite a cloud of sail with the spinnaker and the mizzen staysail.
To be sure, there is going to more windage in the ketch. She has a lot of rigging, but she can also put up quite a bit of sail. With working sails, my boat will will point about 40 degrees to apparent wind ( on my AWI indicator), and that is good enough for me.
Good luck with your choice. I think that either rig will give you many years of enjoyment. By the way, do not believe any advertising put out by the factory. For long distance cruising, the 30 footer is a 2 person boat!
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30 K
jvmacpjee@aol.com
I think that you could single hand either the cutter or the ketch easily. If you are a lazy single hander, like me, consider the ketch. My ketch has a 135 genoa or a club footed jib on a Harken furler, a main with lazy jacks, mizzen (lazy jacks), mule, mizzen staysail, and assymetric spinnaker (with sock). My working sails when on the wind (from 5 to 15 knots) are the working jib, main, mizzen, and mule. I routinely sail this boat on and off the mooring in a crowded harbor with this suite, close hauled into our prevailing SW wind. The entire rig is self tacking, you turn the wheel, a miracle occurs, and you are on the other tack. You never take the covers off the winches! I do not usualy use the genoa or the mizzen staysail when sailing alone. The assymetric spinnaker is a fun sail when off the wind and is manageable when you have the stuff sock. My autopilot is handy when raising or lowering the sspinnaker.
When you are on the wind, it is almost always possible to get the boat to sail herself for long periods of time by trimming either the jib or the mizzen. In confused seas, she may need help from the autopilot.
When the wind pipes up, it is easy to reduce sail by removing sails from the inventory. In heavy winds, she sails very comfortable and balanced with jib and jigger (working jib and mizzen).
Under 5 knots, with this rig, you are motoring or motor-sailing.
With a crew, she is quite a sight with all of the sails flying. You can put quite a cloud of sail with the spinnaker and the mizzen staysail.
To be sure, there is going to more windage in the ketch. She has a lot of rigging, but she can also put up quite a bit of sail. With working sails, my boat will will point about 40 degrees to apparent wind ( on my AWI indicator), and that is good enough for me.
Good luck with your choice. I think that either rig will give you many years of enjoyment. By the way, do not believe any advertising put out by the factory. For long distance cruising, the 30 footer is a 2 person boat!
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30 K
jvmacpjee@aol.com
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Olli Wendelin
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
Mike,
Ketch or cutter? Good question. The sloop and cutter rig certainly appear to be more popular. All the later year Cape Dorys are cutters or sloops. All the listings I have seen for ketches are either 77's or 78's. Note that the hull is the same for either rig. The interior varies a bit by year, but not by rig. I purchased a ketch because of opportunity, cost, and timing (1977 CD30 #36). I liked the idea of a ketch rig, but was concerned that it might be a bit crowded in a 30 ft boat.
I can seat five comfortably in the cockpit, seven with some crowding. This is with the helmsman sitting on the steering gear. Without the mizzen mast I could probably fit one more. The mizzen mast and boom turn out to be good cockpit handholds in rough weather. The mast is just right as a handhold when coming up from the cabin. The mizzen shrouds and main split backstay are a little busy, but again provide good handholds. I have a cockpit awning that goes under the mizzen boom and provides good rain and sun protection, and can be used while flying the mizzen.
The main mast is farther forward on the ketch rig (2 ft ?). This allows me to store my 8' 6" dinghy on the cabin top for offshore work. I don't believe you could do this with the cutter rig.
The main boom does not extend over the cockpit as it does on the cutter, which is a saftey plus in case of an accidental jib.
Handling of the mizzen sail is a snap. In addition to the standard sails, a mizzen staysail and mizzen spinnaker could be flown from the ketch, if you really want to stay busy.
I also use the mizzen boom as a crane for my dinghy outboard.
Here are the comparison working sail sizes for the cutter and ketch:
Cutter: Fore Triangle 232, Main 205, Total 437
Ketch: Fore Triangle 207, Main 165, Mizzen 66.5, Total 438.5
I fly a 150 genoa on light air days. When that flaps, I break out the iron genoa.
One final point in favor of the ketch is that it is a blow against the humdrum skyline of single masted, sloop rigged, plastic boats seen on most sailing days and at most marinas.
I bow to others to highlight the benefits of the cutter rig.
Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC
wendelin@spawar.navy .mil
Ketch or cutter? Good question. The sloop and cutter rig certainly appear to be more popular. All the later year Cape Dorys are cutters or sloops. All the listings I have seen for ketches are either 77's or 78's. Note that the hull is the same for either rig. The interior varies a bit by year, but not by rig. I purchased a ketch because of opportunity, cost, and timing (1977 CD30 #36). I liked the idea of a ketch rig, but was concerned that it might be a bit crowded in a 30 ft boat.
I can seat five comfortably in the cockpit, seven with some crowding. This is with the helmsman sitting on the steering gear. Without the mizzen mast I could probably fit one more. The mizzen mast and boom turn out to be good cockpit handholds in rough weather. The mast is just right as a handhold when coming up from the cabin. The mizzen shrouds and main split backstay are a little busy, but again provide good handholds. I have a cockpit awning that goes under the mizzen boom and provides good rain and sun protection, and can be used while flying the mizzen.
The main mast is farther forward on the ketch rig (2 ft ?). This allows me to store my 8' 6" dinghy on the cabin top for offshore work. I don't believe you could do this with the cutter rig.
The main boom does not extend over the cockpit as it does on the cutter, which is a saftey plus in case of an accidental jib.
Handling of the mizzen sail is a snap. In addition to the standard sails, a mizzen staysail and mizzen spinnaker could be flown from the ketch, if you really want to stay busy.
I also use the mizzen boom as a crane for my dinghy outboard.
Here are the comparison working sail sizes for the cutter and ketch:
Cutter: Fore Triangle 232, Main 205, Total 437
Ketch: Fore Triangle 207, Main 165, Mizzen 66.5, Total 438.5
I fly a 150 genoa on light air days. When that flaps, I break out the iron genoa.
One final point in favor of the ketch is that it is a blow against the humdrum skyline of single masted, sloop rigged, plastic boats seen on most sailing days and at most marinas.
I bow to others to highlight the benefits of the cutter rig.
Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC
wendelin@spawar.navy .mil
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Joe Valinoti
Re: CD30: Cutter or Ketch?
I successfully raced a CD28 for 10 years without the club and with a 160 roller jib. Worked great. Just purchased a CD30 cutter and the first thing I did was to take off the inner forstay and send the staysail out to take off the hanks and put in a low stretch bolt rope for using of the wind. Will purchase a 150 or 160 jib for upwind work.Michael O'Connor wrote: I am considering purchasing a Cape Dory 30. I had been leaning toward a cutter when I came upon messages at this site discussing the difficulty of tacking the cutter when using a genoa (e.g., partially furling in the genoa while tacking, etc.). I sail single-handed frequently (I am currently the proud owner of a CD25). Perhaps the ketch-rigged CD30 would be better suited for single-handed sailng? Does the ketch perform as well as the cutter? I have read that ketches in general do not perform as well to windward as cutters and sloops. I would appreciate any advice and/or sharing of experience from owners of both cutters and ketches.
Mike O'Connor
Joe
vwman@coastalnet.com