Typhoon Angle of point on a beat

[jdlomonaco]

I recently tried to access the ability of my Typhoon Weekender to point on a beat. I used a GPS to measure my speed and my compass heading on port and starboard tacks (my tacks were about 130 degrees apart, but I can' be sure that wind shifts were factored out). I realize that the Typhoon, with the full length shoal draft keel is not known for its pointing ability, but I am a little concerned that 65 degrees to the wind was the best I could do in the short trial I made. I was sailing with my 155 Genoa in about 8 or 9 mph winds. I had pretty good sail shape and telltales on the main leech and jib luff looked good also. I was able to sail at about 5.5 mph (which was quite good given that hull speed is between 5.7 and 6.6 mph depending on how much of the water line is in the water). Does anybody have a idea if this is typical? Any suggestions?

[Skeep]

You take up a subject about which I believe all of us are familiar, Typhoon pointing problems. I'm not going to suggest that I have the best answer, will leave that to other more sagacious individuals on this board to whom I'd go for advice. However, my experience on the water with the Typhoon leads me to agree with your observation that she doesn't point that well at all.

For that I have made sure I've done everything I can to assist her in the process, moving the head-sail as far forward in the bow plate as possible and keeping sufficient trim in that sail as well and allowing for those ubiquitous "speed wrinkles" in the main. Yet, for all I do, she can only get so close, and while other sleak and snarky vessels pass her by, I remind myself of her status and history and take pride that she's in a class of her own. And sailing with other Typhoons, she's a whole lot better understood!

But then I've not retrofitted mine with a traveler either, and this would definitely make a bit of difference in pointing. I am reticent to retrofit too much on my Ty less I change her into something else just because I don't like her design. I often wonder that once we begin adding this and that, we're changing an old design and putting new stressors on a hull that may not have been intended to accept such. But in the end, you're right, she doesn't point very well at all lol...

Others will provide more rational responses I'm sure. I don't sail Baggy Wrinkles to race but to savor life. Alas..

[jdlomonaco]

Thanks for your reply Skeep. The others you talk about have not yet posted responses to my inquiry. I have known for 25 years that my TY (Salty Dog II, #1792) didn't point very well, but I too like her classic design, single hand ability, and ruggedness. This year, being that I just refitted her after an 8 year stay in my back yard, I have been tuning the rigging and trying to quantify how well she points. Noting that the results I stated in my first post are only from one trial (and I need to do some more trials) I find that the results are worse than I expected. Can you tell me if your TY points better than the 65 degrees I have measured?

Let me say that I believe I have the stays, upper and lower, port and starboard, set appropriately as my mast is laterally straight under sail and there is little to no looseness in the leeward stays. I am not so sure about my fore/back stay tension. At the dock the mast is fairly plumb and has a slight backward "hook" from the lower to upper stays (the results of a fractional rig no doubt). The stay deflects about 3 to 4 inches when I pull on it. Under sail, the sails shapes look good, camber in the right place, no wrinkles, telltales flying correctly, etc. and I can adjust this well with the sheets and boom vang (modification I made). I have been told (and I believe) that fore stay leeward sag can affect pointing ability. So, what I am considering is that the fore stay might be a little loose. I could use some help to determine if this is the case. Beyond this I am not sure what else to look at.

[Klem]

I have never sailed a Ty so can't comment on the exact performance but there are a few things that come to mind.

I don't know what your level of sailing ability is but if you have any friends that are good racers, you might try inviting them out for a sail and letting them see what they can get out of the boat. Often, a little bit of tweaking can really make a big difference and if you are not knowledgeable enough to do it yourself, racers are usually the next best.

When measuring your tacks by looking at track lines on a GPS, any current can really play a huge role. I have seen my tacking angle look like 60 degrees and also like 150 degrees depending on the current. If you simply use a compass, you miss the loss due to leeway so there is no perfect solution.

In lighter airs or if there is much chop at all, it can be tricky to point high. Also, big overlapping genoas can really create problems if they are not cut right for going to weather.

I hope this helps.

[jim trandel]

My Typhoon does much better with a 100% -105% #3 jib heading upwind.
Best regards,
Jim Trandel

[jdlomonaco]

Klem thanks for the reply. I would call myself an advanced intermediate sailor. I have been sailing since 1985 (except my 8 year break). Early on I sailed a Highlander and did some crewing in races with them. I did a lot of reading in my time. I assume you are a Cape Dory owner (as you are visiting this message board). BTW I failed to mention that I am sailing in a lake so the current issue is mute, but a good suggestion. Wind shift can certainly mess with the angle switching from port tack to starboard tack in a similar way.

I would like first to discuss the lee way issue. My understanding is what the full length keel takes away in point ability it give back in decreasing leeward slip. Is that your understanding? Second, I believe that my sails are of a good quality/well cut (made by Shore) but it is interesting to note that I was sailing with a 155% jib in my trial. Another good suggestion. I need to do additional trials with it and my 105%. Finally I would like to address my method of determining my pointing angle perhaps there is a flaw in this. What I did was to sail on port tack for a few minutes and used my GPS to give me a compass heading, then likewise on starboard tack. I then calculated the difference between the two headings and divided by 2. Do you see any fault in this approach?

[jdlomonaco]

Jim Trandel thanks for the reply. As I stated in my post above I need to try my 105%. However, no one seems to have any suggestions about correct fore stay tension. I have looked in the TY book and am going through my books on sailing. They have some info but I still have questions. Also, no one has replied about their TY pointing angle to windward. Maybe I asking for too much. Anyone?

[Stan W.]

Converting mph to knots, you're getting over 4.5 knots out of a Ty in about 7.5 knots of wind. I think that's pretty good and an indication you're not doing anything fundamentally wrong.

Tightening the forestay will flatten the sail, which gives a finer entry, which is better for pointing, but it will also depower the sail. In only 7.5 knots of wind, you normally would be trying to maximize power and would not do this.

You might try loosening the genoa halyard until the luff just starts to scallop. That will move the draft back, which gives a finer entry, which is better for pointing. However, it will also narrow "the groove." Thus, you normally would do this only if you're sailing in flat water.

[Skeep]

Good points all. Fundamentally, the Typhoon is not a performance sailboat. And underneath the waves is a full and heavy keel more suitable for surviving in the most horrendous water turbulence than slicing a precision azimuth. She's sturdy and a well built girl. But a racer she's not! My recommendation is you plan now to head to Rappahannock VA for the Typhoon Nationals in 2016 where you can sail with Typhoons and watch the pointing of the Tys in motion. Most point in largely the same fashion. However, technique and strategy often play a critical role in winning with one's own class. I've given up on competing with other sailboats because of her inability to point upwind as well as other designs.

[Jim1945]

This is just a seat of the pants observation on how my Ty points. I have had many smaller boats - Snipe, Lightning, Hobie 16, Interlake, Chrysler Mutineer- and some larger boats - Catalina 22, Catalina 27, S2 7.3, Bristol 22. On my Ty I have only one head sail, a 150 on a CDI furler which I think makes it harder(maybe impossible) to control head stay tension very much, and the original main for my first year of sailing the Ty (last year). I had a new main built last year but wasn't happy with the cut and ended up using the original mail that came with the boat all summer. I now have had the new main re-cut and will be using it when I launch in a few weeks.

Enough background. My gut feel is that I think my Ty points very well. Compared to all the other boats I have owned I feel it points with the best of them. My 150 is a really nice sail. I don't know the brand as it doesn't have a name stitched on it anywhere but it is cut really nice and is one of the best genoas I've ever owned. It is very new and stiff. I'll be doing some compass readings like you have done but with a regular compass not a gps. Not sure if that will give me an accurate measure or not. As far as boat speed I'm really happy with the Ty. In a 12 to 15 mph wind it just seems to fly on any point of sail. That's probably partly due to the fact that you are close to the water in a Ty and the feel of speed is accentuated I think. I had trouble getting my Catalina 27 to point and it was the last boat I sailed before sailing the Ty. I've often felt I can sail to wind better in the Ty than the C27 and the C27 had new sails. My seat of the pants feel is that the Ty sails rings around the C27.

Whether or not it really does point that well I don't know if I really care that much. The experience on the water the Ty gives is just superb. My only regret is that I didn't own one of these boats many, many years ago. I used to race a fair amount(Hobie 16 and Catalina 22) but don't anymore. I was kind of obsessed with the potential pointing ability of the Ty before I sailed it but that's all in the past. As you can probably tell I just love the Ty for it's ore sailing qualities. If your a racer lack of pointing ability may be bothersome. But for day sailing to me the Ty is hard to beat.

One other thing is that this is my first full keel boat. I love the feel of these boats and if I were to get another boat it would be with a full keel. I'm sure that the TY does as well to weather as any of the other Cape Dory's and full keel boats generally.

Good luck in your quest for better performance. I know how it can be frustrating when your boat's performance just doesn't feel right.

[jdlomonaco]

Stan W thank you for your response. As I stated in a previous post the tell tales on the luff are flying well. However, have to admit that I am just getting around to paying more attention to my jib sail camber. It is harder to see than the main but I will look into you halyard suggestion as I do more trials.

[jdlomonaco]

Jim1945 thank you for your response. As I mentioned in a previous post, I also love how my TY sails. (I have sailed a considerable amount on a Highlander and Hobie 16.) I am only considering the windward performance (not frustrated) because I recently refitted my TY and want to get the best from her. Also, as stated in a previous post, she moves along well with respect to her hull speed limitation in a moderate breeze. Alas, beating is the point of sail where pointing angle as well as boat speed is a factor of getting to where you want to go. So that is why I am even discussing this (other than that I am an engineer with the curiosity implied by that avocation).

[Jim1945]

Jim1945 thank you for your response. As I mentioned in a previous post, I also love how my TY sails. (I have sailed a considerable amount on a Highlander and Hobie 16.) I am only considering the windward performance (not frustrated) because I recently refitted my TY and want to get the best from her. Also, as stated in a previous post, she moves along well with respect to her hull speed limitation in a moderate breeze. Alas, beating is the point of sail where pointing angle as well as boat speed is a factor of getting to where you want to go. So that is why I am even discussing this (other than that I am an engineer with the curiosity implied by that avocation).

Understood. Sail shape and angle to the wind is always something I take care to get right even if just day sailing. I always considered pointing ability as a must have on any boat. I never did understand how a Hobie 16 pointed as well as it did with nothing more than those shallow asymetrical hulls in the water, but it did well upwind. Again just gut feel but my Ty seems to do OK.

[swhfire21]

Not sure if this fits in, but my previous Ty had a roller curling genoa. I always felt moving the sheets to the inward blocks made a big difference in pointing ability any time the sail was rolled in to about 100% or less. No measurements, just seat of pants.

[Klem]

Klem thanks for the reply. I would call myself an advanced intermediate sailor. I have been sailing since 1985 (except my 8 year break). Early on I sailed a Highlander and did some crewing in races with them. I did a lot of reading in my time. I assume you are a Cape Dory owner (as you are visiting this message board). BTW I failed to mention that I am sailing in a lake so the current issue is mute, but a good suggestion. Wind shift can certainly mess with the angle switching from port tack to starboard tack in a similar way.

I would like first to discuss the lee way issue. My understanding is what the full length keel takes away in point ability it give back in decreasing leeward slip. Is that your understanding? Second, I believe that my sails are of a good quality/well cut (made by Shore) but it is interesting to note that I was sailing with a 155% jib in my trial. Another good suggestion. I need to do additional trials with it and my 105%. Finally I would like to address my method of determining my pointing angle perhaps there is a flaw in this. What I did was to sail on port tack for a few minutes and used my GPS to give me a compass heading, then likewise on starboard tack. I then calculated the difference between the two headings and divided by 2. Do you see any fault in this approach?

Yes, I am a Cape Dory owner, we have a 30 ketch.

The full keel will actually have a bit more leeway than a fin keel generally once the boat is moving. Before the boat gets moving, the shear area of the full keel resists better but once a fin keel gets going, its shape is more efficient and will have less leeway. If you look at a fin keel, you will notice that it has a foil shape, there are a standard set of NACA foils that the naval architects use. Also somewhat related, high heel angles result in higher leeway and most full keel boats have lower initial stability.

Your method of measuring angle is perfectly legitimate but the key is to understand what you are really measuring. You are measuring the actual course made good. In the end, this is what matters as it includes everything. If you were to only look at your compass, you would be ignoring leeway (but a lot of people actually claim this as their tacking angle). The trick with using a gps is that it also includes effects which are not due to the boat such as current. Since you say there is no current, then I think that your method is probably best. In the end, you want the best velocity made good towards a target to weather. With a GPS, you can really spend some time tweaking to try to improve this.