Question on fin keels

[tom ricks]

A question that often occurs to me when I see fin-keeled boats for sale on Craigslist Maine Boats: Is it even safe to sail such boats on ocean water? It seems to be that such boats could go over and not come back up.
Thanks,
Tom Ricks

[Steve Laume]

Fin keeled boats are still heavily ballasted so they will have much the same righting qualities.

It is the spade rudders and exposed props that worry me about fin keeled boats. Raven has shed a few lobster warps like water off a duck's back. I try not to hit any but it happens and is of little consequence. The rudder and prop are tucked away nicely. I see some spade rudders in the yard that have plenty of room to jamb a wrap up between the rudder and the hull. Exposed props are vulnerable to lines and even seaweed, much more so than a prop in an aperture.

Grounding is another situation where I want my keel to be part of the hull and the rudder firmly attached to it. Lost keels or torn out keel bolts are things that could ruin your day. We had a boat in our yard a few years ago that hit some rocks a Cape Dory would have probably bounced right over. The results were not the same for the fin and spade boat. The keel blots ripped right through the stringers in the bottom of the hull. She evidently bounced over the obstruction after that and the second hit came to the spade rudder which bent enough to prevent it from turning in any direction but the weird angle it ended up in.

So in answer to your original question, I would say fin keeled boats are very safe to sail in the open ocean. It is when the water gets thinner that I would worry more about having one, Steve.

[Klem]

Hi Tom,

Yes, it can be completely safe to sail a fin keeler on open water. From a stability perspective, they are usually better than a full keel boat. The reason for this is that the center of buoyancy is a lot higher as the full keel boat will have a lot of volume quite low in the water.

From a strength perspective, it is perfectly possible to design one to be more than strong enough for offshore sailing or a hard grounding. However, not all boats are designed this way. One major concern with a fin keel boat is what the condition of the keel bolts are as they do tend to corrode away over many years and it is quite expensive to drop the keel to check. The other consideration is how the rudder is supported. There are some examples of poor design and poor craftsmanship that resulted in lost rudders but it is perfectly possible to design one that is plenty robust. I should note that I am making a huge generalization here with regards to internal or external ballast. The fact is that either design can have either type of ballast but fin keels tend to be bolted on and full keels tend to have internal ballast.

Finally, I think that it is worth looking at the handling. Long keel boats tend to go straight which can be great in many conditions. A well designed fin keel boat can be just as well behaved but also much easier to turn. There have been some very poorly behaved fin keel boats in this category which have given them a bad name.

Overall, it comes down to the design, there are well executed examples of in and full keel boats. If you look at the boats out sailing around the world, I am pretty sure that the vast majority are fin keel boats. Interestingly if you look at the high latitudes, many of them are going to lifting keels.

[Paul Clayton]

I count myself as of the full keel persuasion, but as an example of a seaworthy fin-keeler, consider the Contessa 32 that John Kretschmer sailed and wrote about in "Cape Horn to Starboard". A solidly built boat with a fine entry, relatively long fin and rudder hung on a skeg. For a review, see http://bluewaterboats.org/contessa-32/. In some ways, similar to our Cape Dories - low freeboard, narrow, relatively small interior volume, long overhangs, reputation for being wet boats - the Contessa 32 has been nicknamed "the sailing submarine". With tiller steering, a real sailor's sailboat.

[Paul D.]

My favorite keels for blue water sailing include our Alberg cut away forefoot full keels, the S&S designed Tartan 34C's or Bermuda 40's longish fin with centerboard and keg hung rudder and the boxy but functional keels on the Crealock Pacific Seacrafts or Amel super maramus.

All have their place. Like others said, design for the purpose is key. I am not a fan of spade rudders and high aspect fins for any boat I'd live aboard and really cruise.

[pjust]

Tom, when I was looking to start sailing here in Penobscot Bay, I asked around for advice on what kind of boat a beginner like me should get. I asked the guy who runs the local moorings and he suggested a Cape Dory Typhoon. "Why?" I asked. "Well it's a very forgiving boat," he said, "which is good for someone just learning. Plus, it's got a full keel." "Ok," I said, "why do I want a full keel?" "Look out there," he replied. "What do you see?" "You mean all those lobster buoys?" I asked. "Yes," he said. "If you've got a fin keel or a centerboard, you're going to spend half your time unfouling yourself from pot warps. With a full keel, they just slide right off." Another reason to prefer a full keel to a fin keel (or spade rudder), especially sailing coastal Maine.

[tom ricks]

Oh yeah, no question that a fin keel in Penobscot Bay is an invitation to war with lobstermen.

Remember, all that lobster gear is expensive. I always cringe when I read sailors write about getting tangled, having to cut a line off their prop. At the very least, try to tie the cut line together. But much better not to go dragging lobster trap lines.

[pjust]

Oh yeah, no question that a fin keel in Penobscot Bay is an invitation to war with lobstermen.

Remember, all that lobster gear is expensive. I always cringe when I read sailors write about getting tangled, having to cut a line off their prop. At the very least, try to tie the cut line together. But much better not to go dragging lobster trap lines.

I couldn't agree more. If you cut a pot warp you're cutting away a piece of someone's livelihood. As another friend--and lobsterman--put it: "If you cut the line on someone's trap, they will find you, and they will slash your tires."

[Steve Laume]

Worse than fin keels are the ones with bulbs or wings. I just look at these and cringe when I think about sailing through a sea of pots. I saw a boat a few years ago that had added a bulb on the bow, like the big ships tend to have these days. I never got to talk to the owner or saw it again but always wondered how much speed that thing cost them rather than increased it. In a perfect world of water it might have been a good design. Where there is eel grass, kelp and lobster pots it was just a debris magnet.

Raven tends to slide over any wrap I happen not to miss. I did have one a couple of years ago that slide right under the boat but then did a pretty serious ping off of the Monitor water vane. It was over before I could trip the thing but I am so glad I don't have to worry about hanging up the hull itself.

And then there is steering in reverse, Steve.

[Jim Walsh]

I was lucky a couple years ago. I'd just dropped my sails, started the engine, took a last look for an errant sheet, and engaged the tranny. Just as I started to gain headway I heard a thump and saw a pot buoy trailing astern under water. I put the tranny in neutral in a heartbeat. Turned the helm full over which spun me slowly and the pot buoy was still in the same position! Uh oh! I had just enough headway to once again put the helm over just started to turn in the opposite direction when I heard a second pot buoy scrape along the hull and I was free. Apparently this pot had a pot buoy and a pickup buoy and I was cradled between the two. I lucked out but it was a minute of excitement I could have done without.

[pjust]

I just finished a dinner of scallops and pasta. Words cannot express my appreciation for the men and women who bring seafood to the market.

[Skeep]

Well, interesting comments all, yet in the end, it is a matter of what you want to sail isn't it? I loved my Beneteau 473. A fin keel with a bulb and adequately fast. But I was sailing in the Carribbean and Meditterranean not in Maine! And now, with a Typhoon, I'm loving the sluggish pace but certain and stedfast feeling of the full keel.

I'd think that the larger Cape Dories are a dream to sail in the ocean and I'll take any invites to experience that! The wide beam hulls and fin keels are fast in the ocean but heel over quite a bit in the cruiser class providing much excitement. I love them both!

What shall ye sail?

[Tom Keevil]

Two years ago we were sailing in a three boat flotilla in Northern British Columbia when one of our friends hit a log. The log wedged between the fin keel and the spade rudder. We were able to get a line on them, and keep them from drifting onto the rocks, got the log out, and eventually got them anchored in a nearby cove. Their prop shaft and their rudder wouldn't turn. We were a full day sail from the nearest town. Fortunately the seas were calm the next day, and we towed them in to civilization (such as it is in Northern British Columbia). We eventually got the boat hauled, and found a bent rudder shaft, a bent prop shaft, and a prop that looked like a pretzel. Their sailing season was finished.

A few days later, in nearly the same spot, we hit a log. It made it's way under the keel, and popped up astern. Scared us to death, but Rover carried on as if nothing had happened.

A full keel is not a perfect defense though. Later in that trip we met a full keel boat that had bent their prop on a piece of ice they ran over.