Usefulness of Vane self steering

[swhfire21]

I have a CD 26 and single hand all of the time. I've been using a tiller clutch and have previously used a tiller tamer (Typhoon) and found that neither are capable of holding the boat on a course long enough to allow adjustments to be made in a nice, relaxed manner and without disturbing my wife/admiral. So most of the time I just slog along leaving sail trim problems be, which the engineer in me finds highly annoying.

I sail in shallow bays (4 - 8 ft in most places) which are usually quite choppy, but big enough to allow tacks/headings to be held for 10 - 30 minutes depending on wind conditions and course. I was debating if a wind vane self steer would help or just complicate things (frustrate) even more. Are these things easy to engage/disengage and adjust or am I going to spend 10-15 minutes just tuning it in to get 5 minutes of freedom?

I was thinking of going this route because 1) The 26 has a pretty simple battery/DC/charging system and I'd like to keep it that way, 2) I've become quite attached to the freedom of not having a ton of lines in the cockpit and would like to keep everything other than sheets and roller furling line at the mast, 3) heaving to just to make minor sail tension or block position adjustments is just a pain (also it disturbs the admiral).

I was looking at some vanes from South Atlantic (www.south-atlantic.com.ar), which appear simple and relatively inexpensive. They are not top grade units (aluminum), but then again I am primarily a day sailor and am not looking to cross the Atlantic or Pacific. We do overnight occasionally, so I'd rather reserve battery capacity for lights, etc... in lieu of chewing it up with an electronic autohelm.

Any feed back would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[CD_Sailor]

I have a CD 26 ... debating if a wind vane self steer would help ... The 26 has a pretty simple battery/DC/charging system and I'd like to keep it that way ... I'd rather reserve battery capacity for lights, etc... in lieu of chewing it up with an electronic autohelm ...

Fair enough question and fair enough that you don't want to get complicated when it comes to electrical requirements. However it's also "fair enough" to know that when going from place to place, whether coastal or offshore, a VERY large percentage of the time is spent under power. The consequences of this rerality for your application are obvious.

I have a slightly larger boat (CD28) that sports a Navik vane dating from 1987. This is an ideal unit for my particular application (although unfortunately no longer available). However I also have four (yes, 4) electronic pilots that provide tremendous flexibility when required. IOW, I would first add some sort of pilot (e.g., Autohelm 2000), get a bit of time with that, and then decide if the "high cost route" (AKA windvane self steerer and its complications) is absolutely necessary.

Remember, you will never again see the money when it comes time to move to your next yacht. BTW, I never have moved on after something like 33 years.

[cbrenton]

I sail a CD 33 with an Autohelm and a monitor windvane. I love both. They each have a place. The Monitor takes time to set up and adjust. I don,t even consider using it unless I will be on the same course for at least an hour. The Autohelm is perfect for motoring and for short breaks from steering such as for saill adjustments or navigation.

Charlie

[Steve Laume]

I love to sail but don't really enjoy steering for more than short periods of time.

The Monitor wind vane I added to Raven is the best boat modification I ever made to her. I have put a bunch of off shore miles on it and it steers the boat flawlessly in all sorts of conditions. Once you trim the sails and set it, it will keep the boat moving even if the wind shifts. I also use it for short day sails as it only takes a couple of minuets to set up and less time to adjust. It takes no power to operate.

I love the thing but it is not good at certain times.

It will do you no good when there is no wind. It will not hold a compass course if the wind shifts. It is usually worthless when you are trying to put up or take down sails. Sometimes it will work if there is enough wind while you are motoring. It was expensive and a PIA to install. The control lines take up space in the cockpit. Seaweed and lobster pot wraps can hang up on the steering oar. Some may also argue that it clutters up the stern of the boat. Lets see, it also gets in the way when you are trying to fight a fish.

All of those negatives are far outweighed by the positives for my situation. Part of the reason is that I already have an autopilot. Or I did until it died. The last long trip I did, there were many hours of motoring and some of that was in heavy fog. There is no misery greater than hand steering for hours without a focus point. I will never do another long trip without an autopilot.

Every situation is different but judging from what you have said and what you expect, I would pick up a tiller pilot. It will do everything you want it to do while being much cheaper and easier to instal. If power consumption is your only issue, you could change to all LED bulbs or a bigger battery bank and be ahead of the game. You would still come out way ahead on price. Those tiller pilots don't use that much power and it doesn't even sound like you would be using it all the time.

My advise would always be, autopilot first and then a wind vane if you felt the need. That is unless you are doing a lot of off shore sailing with no engine, Steve.

[Neil Gordon]

Short breaks won't consume much battery power.

Consider also that vanes will hold you on a course relative to the wind, i.e., if the wind shifts, you're going to shift with it. Sailing close to shore and where there's traffic to consider, I'd opt for keeping the pointy end going in the same direction as when you left the cockpit.

[Russell]

I love my vane and wouldnt cruise without one, but it has its place, its great for offshore sailing, but for inshore use I use my autopilot. In your situation I would for for an autopilot.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Steve:

If you decide to go with an autopilot you may want to read the user comments concerning the Raymarine ST1000 versus to ST2000 at:

http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... 000+ST2000

[pete faga]

I was thinking of going this route because 1) The 26 has a pretty simple battery/DC/charging system and I'd like to keep it that way,

Steve
One solar panel would help if you go the tiller pilot route.

[mike ritenour]

I also have a monitor wind and, aptly named "Windy" by my son and a ray marine autopilot named Otto", also by Jesse Ray.
Having just recently completed a 36 day passage from Rochester, NY to Key West I can testify that
Both are indispensable.
I started out, years ago, mounting an autopilot on the monitor, but
Scanmar, makers of the monitor, suggested not using the wind vane while motoring as the propeller wash sets up vibrations in the unit that will hasten the demise of certain parts.
I then installed Otto, and life has been a breeze since.
Fair winds,
Rit

[swhfire21]

Thank you all for the feedback. Looks like I'll be high jacking my own thread. Any thoughts on tiller pilots recommendations and selection cautions?

This is actually the winter of the "electrical system" for Peaceful Journey as I have some navigation light issues that need to be taken care of and need to change out the battery. I ran on an old starting battery from my diesel pickup last season, but was only operating a depth finder and refrained from over nighting away from the dock. My project list for the winter will expand to include a tiller pilot and already included:

New nav lights with LEDs (mast lights shorted, everything else uses old style festoon bulbs with dimpled ends which are hard to find)
Replace cabin incandescent bulbs with LEDs
Wire outboard into system for electric start
hard wire in GPS
Install a real battery
Evaluate charger set up

I simply do not have enough high rpm engine running time in a typical day of sailing (20 -25 min. up and down a busy, no wake zone creek at each end of trip) to count on the alternator doing much charging. So I know my battery system needs to sustain me for an entire outing (maybe one night out on hook). I'm reading up on battery sizing/selection now in Casey's new book (This Old Boat, 2nd Ed.).

I have a smart charger that can be programmed to provide the correct charging curve for most batteries. What I'm, not sure about is how do I use my DC lights at the dock as all the chargers I've looked at (including mine) recommend there be no load on the batteries during charging? The CD 26 does not have an AC distribution system, so charging power is provided via a GFI protected shore connection using a double insulated charger. We used a double insulated fluorescent drop light when over nighting at the dock this year, which I'd like to eliminate if practical (system described in a thread under projects).

Thanks again,

[Paul D.]

Steve,

With your electrical overhaul I would consider adding some form of solar panel and maybe charge regulator in the mix.

My year of electrics found me consulting with a bunch of folks I admired for their knowledge and got several systems recommended of widely varying complexity. I worked out we would use a high maximum of 100 amp hours daily with fridge, autopilot and nag lights, the average daily usage would likely be lower. One of my goals was to keep it simple. I ended up adding a house bank of two golf car 6 volt lead acid batteries for 200 am hours and a starting battery, an Echo Charger between them, 60 watt solar panel and charge regulator and a Link 10 battery monitor which I set to monitor the house bank.

This system has served us well for a dozen seasons and, as a system, couldn't be simpler. Last season I replaced the original batteries so I got ten years out of them simply maintaining their water levels and leaving them hooked to the solar panel and charger over the long Northern Wisconsin winters. The solar panel and charger almost cover the operation of the fridge (northern summers help) when there's a bit of sun and with the new LED cabin lights added over the years, the actual daily amp hour use has really dropped.

I think the real key is first doing an honest assessment of what power you will think you will use in a day - (Nigel Calder's Boat Owners mechanical and electrical manual has a working spreadsheet for this) basically thinking about each electrical device you have and guessing how much you'll have it running. Don't forget charging all those iPad's and stuff!

This was a fun winter project and I still have the schematic I drew out somewhere. It changed the way we cruised from constantly worrying about power to only monitoring it pleasantly while on a longer cruise. Hope this helps and good luck!

[Tom Keevil]

Rover came with an Autohelm 4000, which served us well for 12 years. This past summer it died when the small nylon gears wore out. We eventually decided to replace it with a Raymarine EV-100. The improvements made over the intervening years are mighty impressive. It has no fluxgate compass, using solid state motion sensors, and remarkable software. It figures out your compass heading just sailing along with no special procedure. It has none of the 4000's slight weaving back and forth - it holds the course like a rock, with less movement of the wheel. We didn't give it a really big challenge, but in a 6-ft quartering sea it was unfazed. It seemed to know when the next swell was coming, and made suitable accommodation for it. (One advantage of being retired, and not having a schedule, is that you can usually avoid giving your boat really big challenges!).

As for house batteries, we have way more capacity than we usually need. This eliminates the need to fret about the state of charge (though we monitor it daily), allows us to stay at anchor longer than usual if the weather is bad or the anchorage is wonderful, and extends the life of the batteries, since they are rarely deeply discharged.

[Maine_Buzzard]

What did you land on for your battery budget?

It looks like:

2AH (4W) for running lights
3AH (6-10W) for cabin lights
10AH (12W) for the VHF
5AH (5W) for the GPS
0-10AH (100W intermittent peak) occasional use of the autopilot
2AH (10W) iPad charging

And a few more Amp-hours for other lights and stuff.

(and I now want to go measure the draw on my GPS and VHF, as I wonder if they are really that high of a draw.)

After a hard day's night, you need to put about 30-40 AH back in the batteries. Yep, the outboard won't do that.

Would a 60W solar panel be in your budget? That would keep up most use, a big consideration is orientation to the sun if you swing around on a mooring, as a partly obstructed panel gives nil charging. Paul's example is pretty close to what you describe.

Is the charger a 10A or larger? It will not hurt the charger to have 1/2- 1A of cabin lights on while charging. They can handle any voltage a charger puts out, since they seem to survive an alternator's 14+ volts all day...

Really wish the hydro generators were not 3-4K... they seem like a great answer, and I'll be happy when they trickle down to the recreational community.

[Dick Kobayashi]

This is on the assumption that the 26 is outboard powered and so there is a very small alternator.

I would investigate the following

- a tiller pilot
- wired to a portable battery like those sold in auto parts stores for jump starting and back up power.

Take it home when you leave the boat, charge it and then bring it back along with the beer.

I have one and I use it for all kinds of things - cell phone charging, occasional lights, etc. I usually day sail and stay out for a night or two and it is quite adequate and I don't fret about my house and starting battery, ever.

This is consistent with my approach of avoiding gizmos and keeping things as simple as possible.

[Klem]

I think that you are on the correct track with looking at a tiller pilot. Windvanes are great when you are in an area of steady winds and have the time to balance the sail plan and then tune the steering but they are not suitable for quick moments when you want to hold a steady course. Have you tried sheet to tiller steering? While it takes a while to get it dialed in perfectly, you can often quickly throw the sheet on for a few minutes and have the boat not wander too far off course provided you are reaching in some fashion.

How you handle power for the tiller pilot is really all about what you want to do. First, it is worth noting that if you sail with a balanced sail plan, the power consumption will be much lower. Then you should evaluate how much you expect to use it and how long you will go between periods of motoring or shore power (potentially by moving the battery). Solar is great and if you only sail a day a week, you can use a very small panel to bring the bank back up as it will have many days of recovery. Frankly, if you are not sure on how to handle power, provided that you have an engine powered way to charge, I would run it for a season without any additional power generation and see how much you will need. You might run the engine a bit more just for charging but it is not a huge deal if it is just for a season.

My wife and I have found that if we are sailing, we never use the autopilot for more than a minute or two even at night so the draw is negligible. If we are motoring for long periods in wide open places with no pot buoys, we will often use the wheel pilot. I would guess that we hand steer much more than most (when offshore people are always surprised that I hand steer but it is one of the most enjoyable things to me and I get almost no reading done unlike others) but we never worry about power draw.