refinishing teak - varnish or oil?

[tom]

any suggestions on what the best way is to restore dull gray teak trim to lustrous perfection?

[Don Craig]

Depends on time you have for maintenance, your patience, and the degree of "lustrous perfection" you want. Choice is basically varnish vs. Cetol/similar products. Varnish, properly done, will give you a show-quality yacht finish. Cetol etc. takes less time and skill, and delivers a lesser result. In any case, your trim will require some serious prep before ANY finish is applied. If you're serious about having trim you'll be proud of, suggest you get a copy of "Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood" by Rebecca Wittman. It's the bible of yacht finishing and covers everything from history to choices to prep to maintenance. Any outlet that carries books on boats will have it or can order. Good luck. Beautifully done brightwork is one of the most satisfying aspects of boat ownership.

any suggestions on what the best way is to restore dull gray teak trim to lustrous perfection?

[Tom]

any suggestions on what the best way is to restore dull gray teak trim to lustrous perfection?

What Don said is true, however there is another little twist to it. If you go the varnish route you must do it once a year and perhaps twice. Lustrous perfection means taking all the hardware off, sanding down the entire boat and so on. Everyone agrees it's the most beautiful finish you can put on the boat, but it'a a maintenance chore that many don't have time or inclination to do except for the first year when you're thrilled about the new boat. Walk down any marina and look at the varnish -- very few maintain that perfection. Varnish is not very wear resistant. Pulling muddy anchor chain across your beautifully varnished rail does it in and people WILL step on your varnished cap rail coming aboard. In the old days when varnish contained lots of lead and vocs it held up pretty well, but modern environmental laws have weakened it so that it doesn't wear as it used to.

So you have to ask yourself - am I actually going to sail this boat and be pulling the wet, sandy inflatable up over rail and having sandy feet walking on the rail and muddy anchor chain on the foredeck etc? If the answer is yes you may choose someting other than varnish as many of us have done. If you really don't plan to sail that much but enjoy hanging around the docks, chatting with other boaters, putzing around on the boat, and enjoy admiring her beautiful lustrous teak, then perhaps varnish is the answer for you.

Oil goes on quickly doesn't require fancy varnish brushes and can be wiped on with a rag. It doesn't last very long but has to be redone 3 or 4 times a year to keep it right. It never looks as good as varnish but it doesn't cost the well over $100 a gallon that marine varnish does either. You can go back and touch it up (which with varnish requires a complete strip down.) Oil has the disadvantage that it darkens with age so that every few years you have to strip it off and start again to keep it looking right. Still you're never going to get lustrous perfection with oil.

But it isn't either varnish or oil. There are some in between products such as Cetol, Wood Pro, and what I use Armada. These are quasi varnishes. They are applied like varnish probably last a little longer than varnish but still need doing every year. They have the very great advantage that you can go back and touch them up without a complete strip down if you happen to let them go or damage them with a muddy anchor chain. From a distance they look just like varnish and most people can't tell by looking that they are not. However there is nothing like varnish for lustrous perfection. If you've got the time and money and the temperament it can't be beat.

In answer to your specific question about gray teak. It depends upon how bad it is. If it's not too bad, Oxalic Acid may brighten it up or one of the commercial "teak brighteners" which are usually just oxalic or phosphoric acid premixed for you. Usually the brighteners won't do it and you have to sand and use pull scrapers to get down to clean wood. If the soft parts of the grain are eaten away you definitely have to sand. Start with 80 grit sandpaer and work you way down through the grits until you get to 600 grit. You want a perfectly smooth surface with no cracks or checks where water or salt can get in and lift your varnish. Surface preparation is everything. Allot plenty of time and don't skip any grits. When the surface is absolutely perfect it's time to do the easy part which is to apply the finish of choice. With varnish you'll need 10 coats sanding between each coat. With Cetol or Armada don't put on more than 3 because it has to breathe. Larry DeMers posted some good information about this a little while back.

For varnishing tips, books have been written about the subject and this board is full of them -- or ask any guy along the dock. Everybody has a trick and a method that they like. Just my humble opinion and you know what they say -- opinions are like noses, everybody has one. Congratulations on restoring one. We love to see beautifully maintained Cape Dorys in all their lustrous perfection.

[Ben Thomas]

Tom:
The preceding comments are right on the money. It really boils down to time and personal preferences and on this variables are endless.

I just replaced the coaming boards on my cd 30, they were split aft/forward all the way to the winchs, cleats were wobbly. used 13/16" teak boards with laminated strip from cleat aft (3/4"x3/4") along top.
I've never really liked that opaque orangy look that the cetol has. and after seemingly endless deliberation of varnish versus cetol I made a lateral shift and opted for the bristol finish from C-tech Marine.
This is a three part acrylic urethane base resin. you must mix a catalyst and reducer to base. easy instructions. applyied 5 coats to boards. a beautiful deep clear amber finish that makes the teak come alive! This stuff is really toxic and takes out braincells with every breath. so an extremely good respirator with dual filters to the microns is a necessity. even when mixing. quite the brew.. but the results are well worth it.
I work my boat hard, I want functionality and grace/beauty at the same time I hope this finish holds up as they say it does. their e mail is
ctmarine@bellsouth.net out of florida with local distributors around the country. phone 407-752-7533 fax 407-752-5899
good luck, Ben




btlandscapers@imagina.com

[Bob Pence]

any suggestions on what the best way is to restore dull gray teak trim to lustrous perfection?

NEITHER, sand to bare and CETOL. HOLDS UP WELL, EASY TO APPLY, LOOKS GREAT.



sixpence@dmv.com

[Don Craig]

Tom, excellent and informative post. But permit me to correct a misconception about touching up damaged varnish. It CAN be done with great success. I cruised for a year on a Bristol Channel Cutter with lots of teak brightwork (including cap rail--that's one part I now recommend leaving bare) that I successfully maintained with a couple hours' work a week (remember, this is hard use, and when you're cruising, varnish work is good therapy). I kept some varnish in one of those bottles with integral brush in the cap. Whenever I spotted a ding, I spot sanded with 220 and applied a dab of varnish. Second sand and dab next day. Then I'd make a mental note to do a couple maintenance coats reasonably soon over the whole trim area where the damaged occurred. As long as your foundation coats are solid, you can keep varnish intact and looking superb with a couple coats twice a year. I have friends who cruise or race every week with beautiful varnish trim that has not required wooding in ten years. The trick is not letting the finish go; maintenance can be simple, relaxing and satisfying if you stay on top of it. Of course, none of this makes sense if your personality doesn't fit the routine. Better go the Cetol or Armada route in that case.

In my opinion, oil is a very poor option for exterior teak. I speak from sad experience. It's a magnet for dirt, it spatters onto gelcoat during application, and the repeated cleanings in preparation for reapplication wear the grain of the wood. Plus, it looks good for about a week after it goes on, then looks terrible.

Final note: Sealer coat + eight usually considered ideal foundation for varnish.

any suggestions on what the best way is to restore dull gray teak trim to lustrous perfection?

What Don said is true, however there is another little twist to it. If you go the varnish route you must do it once a year and perhaps twice. Lustrous perfection means taking all the hardware off, sanding down the entire boat and so on. Everyone agrees it's the most beautiful finish you can put on the boat, but it'a a maintenance chore that many don't have time or inclination to do except for the first year when you're thrilled about the new boat. Walk down any marina and look at the varnish -- very few maintain that perfection. Varnish is not very wear resistant. Pulling muddy anchor chain across your beautifully varnished rail does it in and people WILL step on your varnished cap rail coming aboard. In the old days when varnish contained lots of lead and vocs it held up pretty well, but modern environmental laws have weakened it so that it doesn't wear as it used to.

So you have to ask yourself - am I actually going to sail this boat and be pulling the wet, sandy inflatable up over rail and having sandy feet walking on the rail and muddy anchor chain on the foredeck etc? If the answer is yes you may choose someting other than varnish as many of us have done. If you really don't plan to sail that much but enjoy hanging around the docks, chatting with other boaters, putzing around on the boat, and enjoy admiring her beautiful lustrous teak, then perhaps varnish is the answer for you.

Oil goes on quickly doesn't require fancy varnish brushes and can be wiped on with a rag. It doesn't last very long but has to be redone 3 or 4 times a year to keep it right. It never looks as good as varnish but it doesn't cost the well over $100 a gallon that marine varnish does either. You can go back and touch it up (which with varnish requires a complete strip down.) Oil has the disadvantage that it darkens with age so that every few years you have to strip it off and start again to keep it looking right. Still you're never going to get lustrous perfection with oil.

But it isn't either varnish or oil. There are some in between products such as Cetol, Wood Pro, and what I use Armada. These are quasi varnishes. They are applied like varnish probably last a little longer than varnish but still need doing every year. They have the very great advantage that you can go back and touch them up without a complete strip down if you happen to let them go or damage them with a muddy anchor chain. From a distance they look just like varnish and most people can't tell by looking that they are not. However there is nothing like varnish for lustrous perfection. If you've got the time and money and the temperament it can't be beat.

In answer to your specific question about gray teak. It depends upon how bad it is. If it's not too bad, Oxalic Acid may brighten it up or one of the commercial "teak brighteners" which are usually just oxalic or phosphoric acid premixed for you. Usually the brighteners won't do it and you have to sand and use pull scrapers to get down to clean wood. If the soft parts of the grain are eaten away you definitely have to sand. Start with 80 grit sandpaer and work you way down through the grits until you get to 600 grit. You want a perfectly smooth surface with no cracks or checks where water or salt can get in and lift your varnish. Surface preparation is everything. Allot plenty of time and don't skip any grits. When the surface is absolutely perfect it's time to do the easy part which is to apply the finish of choice. With varnish you'll need 10 coats sanding between each coat. With Cetol or Armada don't put on more than 3 because it has to breathe. Larry DeMers posted some good information about this a little while back.

For varnishing tips, books have been written about the subject and this board is full of them -- or ask any guy along the dock. Everybody has a trick and a method that they like. Just my humble opinion and you know what they say -- opinions are like noses, everybody has one. Congratulations on restoring one. We love to see beautifully maintained Cape Dorys in all their lustrous perfection.

[Tom]

Tom, excellent and informative post. But permit me to correct a misconception about touching up damaged varnish. It CAN be done with great success. I cruised for a year on a Bristol Channel Cutter with lots of teak brightwork (including cap rail--that's one part I now recommend leaving bare) that I successfully maintained with a couple hours' work a week (remember, this is hard use, and when you're cruising, varnish work is good therapy). I kept some varnish in one of those bottles with integral brush in the cap. Whenever I spotted a ding, I spot sanded with 220 and applied a dab of varnish. Second sand and dab next day. Then I'd make a mental note to do a couple maintenance coats reasonably soon over the whole trim area where the damaged occurred. As long as your foundation coats are solid, you can keep varnish intact and looking superb with a couple coats twice a year. I have friends who cruise or race every week with beautiful varnish trim that has not required wooding in ten years. The trick is not letting the finish go; maintenance can be simple, relaxing and satisfying if you stay on top of it. Of course, none of this makes sense if your personality doesn't fit the routine. Better go the Cetol or Armada route in that case.

In my opinion, oil is a very poor option for exterior teak. I speak from sad experience. It's a magnet for dirt, it spatters onto gelcoat during application, and the repeated cleanings in preparation for reapplication wear the grain of the wood. Plus, it looks good for about a week after it goes on, then looks terrible.

Final note: Sealer coat + eight usually considered ideal foundation for varnish.

Don, I knew some varnish chauvanist would point that out. OK, I admit that it CAN be done if you're willing to spend 2 hours per week (!) on maintenance of the varnish AND you're on top of it the second it happens and you're willing to re-varnish whole sections frequently and so on. If you're that kind of a guy I don't think you'd be posting on this board asking whether you should use varnish or oil. Oil would be out of the question. You'd be spending your time shopping for varnish brushes.

I'm sure you'd agree that the vast majority of varnish jobs in any harbor don't get that kind of care. Most people let it go until it's checked and yellow and by that time there is no way to patch it without it showing.

As far as a base coat and 8 subsequent coats being sufficient. You're probably right. I just picked 10 coats out of the air as an order of magnitude. If only having to apply nine coats rather than the ten I mentioned tips the scales for you then I certainly think you're a varnish man.

Don't get me wrong, I admire a beautifully varnished boat just like everybody else. I varnished mine for many years and may yet go back to it. I just switched to Armada this year and so far I've been pleased with it but time will tell. It doesn't have any orangey look at all. A few things are still varnished such as the teak coffee cup holder on the binnacle. So far no one has been able to identify which things are varnished and which aren't, but it's only been a year and many things start well... But I wasn't trying to proselytize for Cetol or Armada or something else against varnish. Each has it's place for certain types of owners and I was just trying to give the poster a sense of what the factors are in making a choice. I'll bet you've got a beautiful and beautifully maintained boat!

any suggestions on what the best way is to restore dull gray teak trim to lustrous perfection?

What Don said is true, however there is another little twist to it. If you go the varnish route you must do it once a year and perhaps twice. Lustrous perfection means taking all the hardware off, sanding down the entire boat and so on. Everyone agrees it's the most beautiful finish you can put on the boat, but it'a a maintenance chore that many don't have time or inclination to do except for the first year when you're thrilled about the new boat. Walk down any marina and look at the varnish -- very few maintain that perfection. Varnish is not very wear resistant. Pulling muddy anchor chain across your beautifully varnished rail does it in and people WILL step on your varnished cap rail coming aboard. In the old days when varnish contained lots of lead and vocs it held up pretty well, but modern environmental laws have weakened it so that it doesn't wear as it used to.

So you have to ask yourself - am I actually going to sail this boat and be pulling the wet, sandy inflatable up over rail and having sandy feet walking on the rail and muddy anchor chain on the foredeck etc? If the answer is yes you may choose someting other than varnish as many of us have done. If you really don't plan to sail that much but enjoy hanging around the docks, chatting with other boaters, putzing around on the boat, and enjoy admiring her beautiful lustrous teak, then perhaps varnish is the answer for you.

Oil goes on quickly doesn't require fancy varnish brushes and can be wiped on with a rag. It doesn't last very long but has to be redone 3 or 4 times a year to keep it right. It never looks as good as varnish but it doesn't cost the well over $100 a gallon that marine varnish does either. You can go back and touch it up (which with varnish requires a complete strip down.) Oil has the disadvantage that it darkens with age so that every few years you have to strip it off and start again to keep it looking right. Still you're never going to get lustrous perfection with oil.

But it isn't either varnish or oil. There are some in between products such as Cetol, Wood Pro, and what I use Armada. These are quasi varnishes. They are applied like varnish probably last a little longer than varnish but still need doing every year. They have the very great advantage that you can go back and touch them up without a complete strip down if you happen to let them go or damage them with a muddy anchor chain. From a distance they look just like varnish and most people can't tell by looking that they are not. However there is nothing like varnish for lustrous perfection. If you've got the time and money and the temperament it can't be beat.

In answer to your specific question about gray teak. It depends upon how bad it is. If it's not too bad, Oxalic Acid may brighten it up or one of the commercial "teak brighteners" which are usually just oxalic or phosphoric acid premixed for you. Usually the brighteners won't do it and you have to sand and use pull scrapers to get down to clean wood. If the soft parts of the grain are eaten away you definitely have to sand. Start with 80 grit sandpaer and work you way down through the grits until you get to 600 grit. You want a perfectly smooth surface with no cracks or checks where water or salt can get in and lift your varnish. Surface preparation is everything. Allot plenty of time and don't skip any grits. When the surface is absolutely perfect it's time to do the easy part which is to apply the finish of choice. With varnish you'll need 10 coats sanding between each coat. With Cetol or Armada don't put on more than 3 because it has to breathe. Larry DeMers posted some good information about this a little while back.

For varnishing tips, books have been written about the subject and this board is full of them -- or ask any guy along the dock. Everybody has a trick and a method that they like. Just my humble opinion and you know what they say -- opinions are like noses, everybody has one. Congratulations on restoring one. We love to see beautifully maintained Cape Dorys in all their lustrous perfection.

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Don Craig]

Maybe my devotion to varnish has something to do with an addiction to the fumes. Well, you're right on all counts--except for my newly-acquired Weekender is only in early stages of restoration and still looking a bit forlorn (garage presently converted to varnishing factory). I would add only that required varnish maintenance of 2 hours/week for anything but a boat under hard use and with LOTS of trim is probably a little on the high side. Varnish is a lot more durable and forgiving than most people think. And one other key point: A boat cover will cut brightwork maintenance down to almost nothing, not to mention protect gelcoat, deck fittings and everything else from the destructive effects of the elements.

Your best point is that most owners DO let their finishes go, and that seems to be true for Cetol/Armada users as well as varnish. A quick tour of any dock will confirm--lots of yucky looking trim. ALL these finishes need regular attention...varnish probably more than the others. I'd like to see a well-done, well-maintained Armada job (hate Cetol orange). Be interesting to compare. Hang in there with the coffee cup holder...

Tom, excellent and informative post. But permit me to correct a misconception about touching up damaged varnish. It CAN be done with great success. I cruised for a year on a Bristol Channel Cutter with lots of teak brightwork (including cap rail--that's one part I now recommend leaving bare) that I successfully maintained with a couple hours' work a week (remember, this is hard use, and when you're cruising, varnish work is good therapy). I kept some varnish in one of those bottles with integral brush in the cap. Whenever I spotted a ding, I spot sanded with 220 and applied a dab of varnish. Second sand and dab next day. Then I'd make a mental note to do a couple maintenance coats reasonably soon over the whole trim area where the damaged occurred. As long as your foundation coats are solid, you can keep varnish intact and looking superb with a couple coats twice a year. I have friends who cruise or race every week with beautiful varnish trim that has not required wooding in ten years. The trick is not letting the finish go; maintenance can be simple, relaxing and satisfying if you stay on top of it. Of course, none of this makes sense if your personality doesn't fit the routine. Better go the Cetol or Armada route in that case.

In my opinion, oil is a very poor option for exterior teak. I speak from sad experience. It's a magnet for dirt, it spatters onto gelcoat during application, and the repeated cleanings in preparation for reapplication wear the grain of the wood. Plus, it looks good for about a week after it goes on, then looks terrible.

Final note: Sealer coat + eight usually considered ideal foundation for varnish.

Don, I knew some varnish chauvanist would point that out. OK, I admit that it CAN be done if you're willing to spend 2 hours per week (!) on maintenance of the varnish AND you're on top of it the second it happens and you're willing to re-varnish whole sections frequently and so on. If you're that kind of a guy I don't think you'd be posting on this board asking whether you should use varnish or oil. Oil would be out of the question. You'd be spending your time shopping for varnish brushes.

I'm sure you'd agree that the vast majority of varnish jobs in any harbor don't get that kind of care. Most people let it go until it's checked and yellow and by that time there is no way to patch it without it showing.

As far as a base coat and 8 subsequent coats being sufficient. You're probably right. I just picked 10 coats out of the air as an order of magnitude. If only having to apply nine coats rather than the ten I mentioned tips the scales for you then I certainly think you're a varnish man.

Don't get me wrong, I admire a beautifully varnished boat just like everybody else. I varnished mine for many years and may yet go back to it. I just switched to Armada this year and so far I've been pleased with it but time will tell. It doesn't have any orangey look at all. A few things are still varnished such as the teak coffee cup holder on the binnacle. So far no one has been able to identify which things are varnished and which aren't, but it's only been a year and many things start well... But I wasn't trying to proselytize for Cetol or Armada or something else against varnish. Each has it's place for certain types of owners and I was just trying to give the poster a sense of what the factors are in making a choice. I'll bet you've got a beautiful and beautifully maintained boat!

What Don said is true, however there is another little twist to it. If you go the varnish route you must do it once a year and perhaps twice. Lustrous perfection means taking all the hardware off, sanding down the entire boat and so on. Everyone agrees it's the most beautiful finish you can put on the boat, but it'a a maintenance chore that many don't have time or inclination to do except for the first year when you're thrilled about the new boat. Walk down any marina and look at the varnish -- very few maintain that perfection. Varnish is not very wear resistant. Pulling muddy anchor chain across your beautifully varnished rail does it in and people WILL step on your varnished cap rail coming aboard. In the old days when varnish contained lots of lead and vocs it held up pretty well, but modern environmental laws have weakened it so that it doesn't wear as it used to.

So you have to ask yourself - am I actually going to sail this boat and be pulling the wet, sandy inflatable up over rail and having sandy feet walking on the rail and muddy anchor chain on the foredeck etc? If the answer is yes you may choose someting other than varnish as many of us have done. If you really don't plan to sail that much but enjoy hanging around the docks, chatting with other boaters, putzing around on the boat, and enjoy admiring her beautiful lustrous teak, then perhaps varnish is the answer for you.

Oil goes on quickly doesn't require fancy varnish brushes and can be wiped on with a rag. It doesn't last very long but has to be redone 3 or 4 times a year to keep it right. It never looks as good as varnish but it doesn't cost the well over $100 a gallon that marine varnish does either. You can go back and touch it up (which with varnish requires a complete strip down.) Oil has the disadvantage that it darkens with age so that every few years you have to strip it off and start again to keep it looking right. Still you're never going to get lustrous perfection with oil.

But it isn't either varnish or oil. There are some in between products such as Cetol, Wood Pro, and what I use Armada. These are quasi varnishes. They are applied like varnish probably last a little longer than varnish but still need doing every year. They have the very great advantage that you can go back and touch them up without a complete strip down if you happen to let them go or damage them with a muddy anchor chain. From a distance they look just like varnish and most people can't tell by looking that they are not. However there is nothing like varnish for lustrous perfection. If you've got the time and money and the temperament it can't be beat.

In answer to your specific question about gray teak. It depends upon how bad it is. If it's not too bad, Oxalic Acid may brighten it up or one of the commercial "teak brighteners" which are usually just oxalic or phosphoric acid premixed for you. Usually the brighteners won't do it and you have to sand and use pull scrapers to get down to clean wood. If the soft parts of the grain are eaten away you definitely have to sand. Start with 80 grit sandpaer and work you way down through the grits until you get to 600 grit. You want a perfectly smooth surface with no cracks or checks where water or salt can get in and lift your varnish. Surface preparation is everything. Allot plenty of time and don't skip any grits. When the surface is absolutely perfect it's time to do the easy part which is to apply the finish of choice. With varnish you'll need 10 coats sanding between each coat. With Cetol or Armada don't put on more than 3 because it has to breathe. Larry DeMers posted some good information about this a little while back.

For varnishing tips, books have been written about the subject and this board is full of them -- or ask any guy along the dock. Everybody has a trick and a method that they like. Just my humble opinion and you know what they say -- opinions are like noses, everybody has one. Congratulations on restoring one. We love to see beautifully maintained Cape Dorys in all their lustrous perfection.

[Tom]

Gee, no varnish guy ever gave up before! Maybe those fumes have weakened your resolve? Actually there is a boat in our marina that is a 40 foot wooden schooner finished bright completely -- hull and all. The owner claims that it is no more of a maintenance chore than paint. In truth he doesn't seem to put that much work into her. It turns out that vertical sides don't suffer from the sun as much as horizontal surfaces such as cap rails. He hauls once a year and gives her topsides two coats of varnish with an 8 inch brush. Everything else gets the usual maintenance routine that we all go through. She's beautiful but in truth he doesn't sail her much. A motorboat ride to the haulout yard once a year is about it. Still and all just looking at that 40 feet of varnish to be maintained buckles the knees of strong men.

Maybe my devotion to varnish has something to do with an addiction to the fumes. Well, you're right on all counts--except for my newly-acquired Weekender is only in early stages of restoration and still looking a bit forlorn (garage presently converted to varnishing factory). I would add only that required varnish maintenance of 2 hours/week for anything but a boat under hard use and with LOTS of trim is probably a little on the high side. Varnish is a lot more durable and forgiving than most people think. And one other key point: A boat cover will cut brightwork maintenance down to almost nothing, not to mention protect gelcoat, deck fittings and everything else from the destructive effects of the elements.

Your best point is that most owners DO let their finishes go, and that seems to be true for Cetol/Armada users as well as varnish. A quick tour of any dock will confirm--lots of yucky looking trim. ALL these finishes need regular attention...varnish probably more than the others. I'd like to see a well-done, well-maintained Armada job (hate Cetol orange). Be interesting to compare. Hang in there with the coffee cup holder...

Tom, excellent and informative post. But permit me to correct a misconception about touching up damaged varnish. It CAN be done with great success. I cruised for a year on a Bristol Channel Cutter with lots of teak brightwork (including cap rail--that's one part I now recommend leaving bare) that I successfully maintained with a couple hours' work a week (remember, this is hard use, and when you're cruising, varnish work is good therapy). I kept some varnish in one of those bottles with integral brush in the cap. Whenever I spotted a ding, I spot sanded with 220 and applied a dab of varnish. Second sand and dab next day. Then I'd make a mental note to do a couple maintenance coats reasonably soon over the whole trim area where the damaged occurred. As long as your foundation coats are solid, you can keep varnish intact and looking superb with a couple coats twice a year. I have friends who cruise or race every week with beautiful varnish trim that has not required wooding in ten years. The trick is not letting the finish go; maintenance can be simple, relaxing and satisfying if you stay on top of it. Of course, none of this makes sense if your personality doesn't fit the routine. Better go the Cetol or Armada route in that case.

In my opinion, oil is a very poor option for exterior teak. I speak from sad experience. It's a magnet for dirt, it spatters onto gelcoat during application, and the repeated cleanings in preparation for reapplication wear the grain of the wood. Plus, it looks good for about a week after it goes on, then looks terrible.

Final note: Sealer coat + eight usually considered ideal foundation for varnish.

Don, I knew some varnish chauvanist would point that out. OK, I admit that it CAN be done if you're willing to spend 2 hours per week (!) on maintenance of the varnish AND you're on top of it the second it happens and you're willing to re-varnish whole sections frequently and so on. If you're that kind of a guy I don't think you'd be posting on this board asking whether you should use varnish or oil. Oil would be out of the question. You'd be spending your time shopping for varnish brushes.

I'm sure you'd agree that the vast majority of varnish jobs in any harbor don't get that kind of care. Most people let it go until it's checked and yellow and by that time there is no way to patch it without it showing.

As far as a base coat and 8 subsequent coats being sufficient. You're probably right. I just picked 10 coats out of the air as an order of magnitude. If only having to apply nine coats rather than the ten I mentioned tips the scales for you then I certainly think you're a varnish man.

Don't get me wrong, I admire a beautifully varnished boat just like everybody else. I varnished mine for many years and may yet go back to it. I just switched to Armada this year and so far I've been pleased with it but time will tell. It doesn't have any orangey look at all. A few things are still varnished such as the teak coffee cup holder on the binnacle. So far no one has been able to identify which things are varnished and which aren't, but it's only been a year and many things start well... But I wasn't trying to proselytize for Cetol or Armada or something else against varnish. Each has it's place for certain types of owners and I was just trying to give the poster a sense of what the factors are in making a choice. I'll bet you've got a beautiful and beautifully maintained boat!

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Clay Stalker]

Don- I have always been a varnish person as well....The maintenance of it seemed like a small price to pay for the appearance....I never really thought it took much effort...just some occasional touch-up and two coats at lay-up, either spring or fall. In any event, I am in the process of purchasing a CD 27 that was stripped down and refinished completely with Armada....I had my doubts until I saw it...very nice, and much closer to the appearance of varnish than Cetol...actually, I have never seen a Cetol job I really liked...I don't know how this Armada business will hold up, but it definately looks real nice...There's my two cents worth......

Maybe my devotion to varnish has something to do with an addiction to the fumes. Well, you're right on all counts--except for my newly-acquired Weekender is only in early stages of restoration and still looking a bit forlorn (garage presently converted to varnishing factory). I would add only that required varnish maintenance of 2 hours/week for anything but a boat under hard use and with LOTS of trim is probably a little on the high side. Varnish is a lot more durable and forgiving than most people think. And one other key point: A boat cover will cut brightwork maintenance down to almost nothing, not to mention protect gelcoat, deck fittings and everything else from the destructive effects of the elements.

Your best point is that most owners DO let their finishes go, and that seems to be true for Cetol/Armada users as well as varnish. A quick tour of any dock will confirm--lots of yucky looking trim. ALL these finishes need regular attention...varnish probably more than the others. I'd like to see a well-done, well-maintained Armada job (hate Cetol orange). Be interesting to compare. Hang in there with the coffee cup holder...

Tom, excellent and informative post. But permit me to correct a misconception about touching up damaged varnish. It CAN be done with great success. I cruised for a year on a Bristol Channel Cutter with lots of teak brightwork (including cap rail--that's one part I now recommend leaving bare) that I successfully maintained with a couple hours' work a week (remember, this is hard use, and when you're cruising, varnish work is good therapy). I kept some varnish in one of those bottles with integral brush in the cap. Whenever I spotted a ding, I spot sanded with 220 and applied a dab of varnish. Second sand and dab next day. Then I'd make a mental note to do a couple maintenance coats reasonably soon over the whole trim area where the damaged occurred. As long as your foundation coats are solid, you can keep varnish intact and looking superb with a couple coats twice a year. I have friends who cruise or race every week with beautiful varnish trim that has not required wooding in ten years. The trick is not letting the finish go; maintenance can be simple, relaxing and satisfying if you stay on top of it. Of course, none of this makes sense if your personality doesn't fit the routine. Better go the Cetol or Armada route in that case.

In my opinion, oil is a very poor option for exterior teak. I speak from sad experience. It's a magnet for dirt, it spatters onto gelcoat during application, and the repeated cleanings in preparation for reapplication wear the grain of the wood. Plus, it looks good for about a week after it goes on, then looks terrible.

Final note: Sealer coat + eight usually considered ideal foundation for varnish.

Don, I knew some varnish chauvanist would point that out. OK, I admit that it CAN be done if you're willing to spend 2 hours per week (!) on maintenance of the varnish AND you're on top of it the second it happens and you're willing to re-varnish whole sections frequently and so on. If you're that kind of a guy I don't think you'd be posting on this board asking whether you should use varnish or oil. Oil would be out of the question. You'd be spending your time shopping for varnish brushes.

I'm sure you'd agree that the vast majority of varnish jobs in any harbor don't get that kind of care. Most people let it go until it's checked and yellow and by that time there is no way to patch it without it showing.

As far as a base coat and 8 subsequent coats being sufficient. You're probably right. I just picked 10 coats out of the air as an order of magnitude. If only having to apply nine coats rather than the ten I mentioned tips the scales for you then I certainly think you're a varnish man.

Don't get me wrong, I admire a beautifully varnished boat just like everybody else. I varnished mine for many years and may yet go back to it. I just switched to Armada this year and so far I've been pleased with it but time will tell. It doesn't have any orangey look at all. A few things are still varnished such as the teak coffee cup holder on the binnacle. So far no one has been able to identify which things are varnished and which aren't, but it's only been a year and many things start well... But I wasn't trying to proselytize for Cetol or Armada or something else against varnish. Each has it's place for certain types of owners and I was just trying to give the poster a sense of what the factors are in making a choice. I'll bet you've got a beautiful and beautifully maintained boat!

cstalker@cheshire.net

[Jerry Hammernik]

any suggestions on what the best way is to restore dull gray teak trim to lustrous perfection?

I may be the only one on this board using Boat US Teak Coat! It is made by Armada for Boat US. I don't know how different the formula is from Armada, but the in store samples look different. I applied it for the first time this year and thus it is too soon to tell if it will hold up as I'm hoping. But it sure was easy to apply. I stripped and sanded and then put on 3 coats. There is no sanding between coats and the product is available in satin or gloss. I used gloss and you don't need base coats of satin. You just put on 1, 2, 3 coats. Annual maintenance is a rub with a scotbrite pad and 1 maintenance coat. It looks great so far. I love varnish and had it on my 25, but even with my own heated shed for the boat in the backyard, I couldn't keep up with it. Four kids is a factor, but I also went sailing instead of varnishing. That doesn't make me a bad person, does it? I'll keep the board appraised of my results as time goes by, but I'm happy so far!

Jerry Hammernik
Lion's Paw
CD 28 #341



dauntles@execpc.com

[Robert]

I second the use of Armada. It mimics the look of varnish closer than Cetol. Application and touch-up are easy. Will it hold up? I hope so! We used the Boat US Teak Coat version on our Typhoon last fall and it still looks great.

Robert Johnson
Glory
Typhoon #691








rjohn12@midsouth.rr.com

[John]

Jerry

This sounds like a product worth giving a try. How many quarts were required for the 3 coats on your 28?

John

[Don Sargeant]

I'm was tired of varnishing (my old boat's copius mahogany trim) and hate the look of Cetol- type coatings, so I found Teak Guard. The result is definately not varnish-like but, rather, a natural wood finish and color with a bit of gloss. The best part is it is an absolute no-brainer to apply. It's the consistency of water, has a slight teak-colored pigment which disapperars once dry, can be touched up or recoated with nothing but a light bronze-wooling. I've had it on for two summers now and the wood beneath has not changed color at all -- no black, no grey. We recoat once in the middle of the summer and again when we haul for the winter. We'll probably give it a coat in the Spring. It takes my wife about two hours to do the entire boat.
Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
Cd25D #189
Snug in Greenwich Cove



don@cliggott.com

[Jerry Hammernik]

Jerry

This sounds like a product worth giving a try. How many quarts were required for the 3 coats on your 28?

John

You should be able to get it done with two quarts. If you have a Boat US store near you check and see if they have a teak sample board with various finishes on it. That's what helped me make my decision.
Good Luck!
Jerry Hammernik
Lion's Paw CD 28 #341



dauntles@execpc.com