Replacing Typhoon Seacocks

[jrisler]

So I am a recent purchaser of a Cape Dory Typhoon and am very excited to get her out on the water as soon as possible. However, there is some work to be done before that can happen. One of the things I think needs to be tackled first is the seacocks. Currently, Aria has a pair of gate-valve seacocks. On the one the handle has pretty much rusted/crumbled into oblivion and the other is right behind it.

I have read plenty of previous posts on the Message Board regarding the need or lack thereof for seacocks. For my own peace of mind, I think I would prefer to have the seacocks. However, in looking at the different options I had a couple questions. First instead of a traditional seacock, I was looking at the Groco flanged adapter coupled with the inline ball valve. It just seems like it would be nice to be able to replace the ball valve without needing to replace the whole seacock in the future. For the additional $10, it seems worth it to me.

Now the question I have relates to using the limited space underneath the cockpit in the best possible way. I was considering putting a 45 or 90 degree street elbow between the adapter and the ball valve. It seems like a good solution, with my only concern being that a 90 degree turn could lead to a great chance of blockage of any debris that gets through the scuppers. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Also, another newbie question, I assume the seacocks and the thru-hulls should be replaced at the same times. I don’t know of any issues with the current thru-hulls other than the fact that they are over 40 years old. It seems most guides to replacing the seacocks also reference replacing the thru-hulls, but I thought I should double check. If I am doing so, I am safe to go with the regular length, or will I need to extra-long ones?

I appreciate any thoughts and am grateful for all the posts that have gotten my knowledge this far.

[Markst95]

On my 72 Typhoon one of the reasons I went with no seacocks is I couldn't get one to fit. What year is your boat? After 6 season the Marelon barbed through hulls with sanitation hose have performed flawlessly. My cockpit drains allowed me to increase the hose size to 1 1/4" and they drain great!. All I do is check the hose clamps a couple of times a season.

[casampson]

I went through the same process last year and, after hours of research, decided to replace my old gate valves with bronze seacocks from Jamestown Distributors. I bought new through-hulls but decided to reuse the old original ones, as they were just fine. This saved quite a bit of money. The installation was relatively easy, although getting the gate valves out was a bear. The only problem is that the hoses I installed weren't heavy duty enough, so they have a little kink in them. I lived with it last year, but will try to find better hosing this spring. Good luck with your project.

[Jim Walsh]

No seacock on a through-hull is just asking for trouble.

[Bob Ohler]

Mark,

I could not help but notice...

Your installation looks very neat, however, your double hose clamps should installed with one clamp on one side and the other clamp on the other side.

Just my 2 cents.

[Markst95]

The clamps are easier to get to this way and have worked out fine, when I change them I will switch them but I don't think it really matters. We've had this discussion about Typhoon cockpit drains on the board before, I think this is a very viable option. I've traded a somewhat complex system with multiple connections, fittings, hoses, valves, many places to leak for an extremely simple, robust system with almost zero maintenance and better performance. The drains should never be left closed so why complicate things with valves? If I have too much weight in the back and get water coming in I just put in a couple of rubber plugs. If I had a catastrophic failure I keep spare hoses, clamps, plugs available nearby, something you should have with seacocks as well. Don't get me wrong I think a proper seacock is vital to other systems but for the cockpit drain on a Ty I think it isn't the best solution. I keep the boat on a mooring and sail in the ocean and honestly wouldn't change it if I could find a seacock that fits.


By the way in all these discussions no one has ever given me a good reason why seacocks work better in this situation. I'd like to hear your reasoning Jim.

[jrisler]

Aria is a 1971 design. The gate valves that are presently in her are very large, so I think i should have the ability to put in a seacock, especially if I use a 90 degree elbow to turn the assembly on its side. I got the idea from Compass Marine:



Based on the image, it looks like I could have a seacock-like device at only two and a half inches. I just want to know if there is a reason why this design might be a bad idea. My main reasons for wanting a seacock rather than just crossing the hoses or some of the other fixes I have seen is two-fold:
(1) This is my first real boat and I don;t want to skimp on anything that could be an issue later, and many sources seem to regard it as gospel to have them.
(2) I am hoping in addition to the girlfriend to have a couple guests along with us on a regular occasion this summer, My understanding is that with that kind of weight in the cockpit, it might be appropriate to close the seacocks, especially for guests that aren't familiar with sailing.
As a rational human-being I know these are foolish concerns, but then again, if I were that rational I probably wouldn't have gotten a sailboat either...

Any thoughts are appreciated as always.

[Markst95]

J- If you can get it to fit the flanged adapter would be an acceptable choice. If you haven't yet check out Mainsails Excellent articles on Seacocks. One thing with the Ty's is I believe the original through hulls were 3/4" (could be wrong). Do they make a 3/4" flanged adapter? You might have to go to a 1". Also because they were only 3/4 they don't drain very quickly, having the 90 degree bend would slow that down. a 45 instead would help. One thing to consider also is I think the groco ball valves are stainless inside a bronze body, could be a corrosion problem if you intend to keep the boat in salt water. Have you checked out Spartan seacocks? They were OEM on many Cape Dories and they might have one that would fit better. Good luck and if you can take some pics of your project to share with us.

[M. R. Bober]

No seacock on a through-hull is just asking for trouble.

Can I get an "AMEN"?

Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster, (Where some lucky CD owner will be doing seacock maintenance starting in about an hour.) VA

[Bob Ohler]

AMEN Mitch!

[Steve Laume]

On anything but the cockpit drains I would echo an amen to seacocks. I close every seacock on Raven when it is not or will be used when I am aboard. All of those get closed when I leave the boat.

I tend to question everything and form my own opinion on what works for me and my boat. When you consider what the function of cockpit drains is on the Typhoon and then look at the pictures of Swift and Aria, which would better accomplish that? The Swift installation provides a large and straight forward path for cockpit drainage. It is unlikely to clog and would be easy to clear if it did. When I look at the Aria plumbing, I can't imagine that even a small piece of debris would not seriously restrict or completely block the drainage. Even if everything is clear, there is a tremendous amount of restriction in that system and it would be extremely hard to clear. There is also a lot to go wrong with so many fittings. This just looks like a case where less is more.

If a problem were to occur when you are not on board then both systems would react the same. You can't close the seacocks if you are not there. I think a blockage would be a much greater risk than the failure of a well maintained hose. With a 3/4" drain and an elbow in the system, a couple of leaves or something a sea gull dropped could easily plug one or both of your drains. Toss some marine life into the mixture of plumbing and one semi functioning drain might not be enough to keep the cockpit from flooding in a severe rain storm.

If you are on board and you had a failure in either system you could either close the seacock or shove a plug in the hose or through hull fitting. You should still have a plug for the Aria set up.

The Ty has a very large cockpit for it's size. Raven has been pooped twice in a matter of 5 min. This happened within 1/2 mile of shore so it is not just an offshore issue. She has 1&1/2" cockpit drains and it still took a while for the cockpit to drain but did not flood into the companionway. If it been a Ty with the already inadequately sized 3/4" drains the second wave would have definitely flooded the cabin.

This just seems like an area where the primary function outweighs the secondary concern that you might have to deliberately block off the through hull, Steve.

[Rollergirl]

I used a 45 degree elbow to ease the flow of debris through the system.
Here is an extract from my original repost of improved parts:
Try this:
All sizes are ¾”
West Marine Part # Part
402570 bronze thru-hull
8672735 Groco IBVF-750
106783 45 degree bronze “ell”, Female to Male
195420 “Apollo” brand bronze ball valve
113003 Grocco full flow tailpiece (uses 1” ID hose)
282285 1” ID hose (buy a 3’ section)
115655 8 ea. #316 Stainless hose clamps (don’t use the cheap
price ones – they rust too quick; and double clamp hoses at both ends)

Put in in parts order (ell between thru-hull and ball valve) with Teflon plumber’s tape. I used 3M5200 on the thru-hull to hull joint. Total cost twenty years ago was about $120, and the scuppers will drain long leaf pine needles right through. Took about two easy hours once I figured out the parts (which took days to do). You might want to put all the bronze together before tightening the thru-hull collar so you can make sure the ball valve levers can clear everything and test for full-open to full-close lever swing. Good luck.

The uproar was due to the fact that I put a NPT thread (the 45 degree ell) together with a straight thread (the thru-hull). Given the load and the possibility of damage from abuse or foreign objects (low) I thought it was a reasonable compromise. Still do.
However, i see the point of the people who feel that the mechanism must meet the highest mechanical standards. It's true, if you are running the Newport -Bermuda race, you shouldn't do it my old way. Instead, do it my new way.
Or, as I call it, my new untested way.
Substitute a Groco IBVF-750 adapter flange (West Marine number 8672735) for the thru-hull nut. That sub sets up a straight-to straight coupling and then converts it to a NPT -to-NPT coupling. You may have to shorten the thru-hull for clearance.
The rub is that, having sold my Ty over a decade ago, i have not tried this. But i think it will fit.
Try it and report back here if you do.

Bill

[Jim Walsh]

ABYC Seacocks, Thru-Hull and Drain Plugs, Standard H-27 requires all piping, tubing or hose penetrating the hull below the maximum heeled waterline be equipped with a seacock except for exhaust which must be double clamped.

[Steve Laume]

ABYC Seacocks, Thru-Hull and Drain Plugs, Standard H-27 requires all piping, tubing or hose penetrating the hull below the maximum heeled waterline be equipped with a seacock except for exhaust which must be double clamped.

Jim, that standard is a recommendation not a requirement. It is a very good one in general but there may be exceptions and this may be why they are only recommendations, Steve.

[Megunticook]

Wonder what an insurance company covering the boat would say to that arrangement? Not judging it as right or wrong, just wonder if it could be an issue in the event a claim was made.

I had to labor mightily to free the seized seacocks on my new TySenior last fall, but feel the time and effort was well spent. Of course I did notice that the owner's manual recommends leaving them open when off the boat so the cockpit doesn't flood in rain, but when aboard with kids in the middle of the bay I think I'll feel better having them both working.