25D Offshore

[SV Tatyana]

I've recently purchased a 25d and plan to refit this summer for some extended offshore cruising next winter. A few questions I'm wondering,

-Has anyone mounted a windlass on a 25d, looking at going with a lofrans manual windlass but not sure how to mount to still utilize the anchor locker?

-Planning to replace the chainplates with bronze flat bar externally mounted on the hull and beef up the entire standing rigging using dynex dux synthetic line. Any other structural recommendations for offshore voyages?

-On a cosmetic note does anyone know if the original teak sole in the cabin is veneer or solid teak?

Thanks,
Richard

[barfwinkle]

Good morning

The original cabin sole is/was veneer. Can't help with the rest.

Fair winds

[Russell]

For a windlass, height is going to be the concern, is it too tall to fit inside the locker? Normally with lidded lockers like that I see people mount them inside the locker. But the 25D is going to have a comparatively small locker to boats I have seen do it this way. Maybe you could cut a small hole in the top of the locker for the top of the windlass to poke out of when its closed?

The cabin sole is certainly veneer unfortunately, so if damage is bad there isn't much you can do. But a 25D you should be able replace it all with a single sheet of teak and holly plywood. Though replacing it with solid teak is an option too (which is what I did on my 36), but not cheap.

[Steve Laume]

I am not sure where you are planing to go or how deep you expect to be anchoring but question weather you really need a windlass on a CD25D.

Raven has a 35lb CQR with 90ft of 5/16" chain and no windlass. I did install a good bow roller and try to anchor in 30ft or less but have never needed a windlass. I have given it some thought but as a fit 60 year old, do not see the need just yet. You would be running 1/4" chain and a 25lb anchor. Even with 90ft of chain that is only 88lbs of tackle. This might seem like a lot but the fact that you will be lifting it in the water makes it much easier. A bow roller is essential but I don't want to clutter up the deck and add the weight if I can still manage the ground tackle by hand.

I windlass costs a lot and my budget has always caused me to have to chose what is most important. Over sized ground tackle and bomb proof self steering have been more important concerns for me. Your situation may be different but it is something to consider.

I must admit I am always a bit envious when I see someone casually standing on the bow at an anchorage and hear the chain just rattling into the chain locker, Steve.

[Shinok]

There was another CD25D for sale that had Dynex rigging, it was the one with the $80k asking price though

Why do you want to replace the chainplates? Are the backings in bad shape?

We replaced our backstay with a bronze piece and it was a fair bit of $$ and work, I'm not sure I'd do it for them all unless it was absolutely necessary (e.g. the backing plates are shot). I would just rebed the chainplates and replace the bolts that run through the deck. We inspected the backings on Mariah with a $25 borescope from Amazon and were able to see the entire plate, which looked fine on our boat. Even the backstay "thing", which looked horrible on the outside, had a ton of material left and was fine.

[fenixrises]

Hi Richard,

Winter cruising off shore in the north Atlantic. I hope you mean in the tropics.

I think a windlass of any size on a 25D is over kill, unless you are even older and more beat
up than I. I'm 65 and single hand my 36 pretty well but 200' of 8mm chain and a 45lb plow
would be a bit tough to haul in by hand these days. I would think 100'~150' of quarter inch chain
would be about right for a 25. That is what I used on my 28 with good effect and I did have a
Lofrans. But I hauled most of the chain by hand, it is much faster. In a pinch a chain hook
with a piece of line led to a sheet winch would work if you have a fair lead and should be aboard in any case.

The line you mentioned I hope is for running rigging. If not think about this. Cut a piece of dacron with a SS knife. Now cut a piece of SS rigging wire with a piece of rope. Probably expensive. I have found plain
old double braid dacron to last a long time if not chaffed and pretty reasonable price wise.

One big thing is the standing rigging. If it is over five years old I would replace all of it
before I went offshore for an extended distance. The external bronze chain plates will work.
About 1 & 1\2" wide by 1|4" thick and fastened with three 3\8" hex bolts each should be
overkill. But if the standard setup is still good there would be little reason to change.

You might consider adding a removable baby stay. Say from just above the spreaders to
somewhere on the foredeck. On this you could set a smallish storm jib back from the bow.
Make sure the deck where the tack end of the stay is attached is structurely sound. One
thing I found on the bigger boat is that the at sea motion is easier. This makes handling the
boat in rough conditions easier. So whatever you can do to make things easy on yourself might
pay off.

Because It is not the pleasant 15 knot sailing conditions that matter in the long run. It is
the occasional times when the seas are 12' plus and the wind is howling through the rigging
that you appreciate the ease of motion and the ease of handling that your fore thought has
brought you.

Think before you act might be good bywords.
And have a good time.

Take care,
Fred

[SV Tatyana]

Thanks for all the insight,

-the windlass is pretty far down on my list and I wasn't even thinking about one until reading a post by James Baldwin on atom voyages where he highly reccomended a windlass. My current setup for ground tackle is 150' of 5/16" chain with a 25lb CQR. At only 23 years old I'm not to concerned about the extra weight, for now I plan to be in the caribbean next winter but will be sailing offshore from somewhere around NC.

- As far as the chainplates go I think they are in decent, the backing plates are pretty rusted, however offshore I would prefer the extra peace of mind knowing that the rig is solid rather than relying on a piece of mild steel backing plate. Going external with the chainplates seems to be the most logical DIY solution for this matter and bronze seems easier to work with than stainless.

- I'm not totally sold on the DUX but am pretty amazed with the stuff, a friend of mine rigged a corsair tri with it and after 2 seasons is holding up pretty well, and I've read nothing but great things about it especially from some respected riggers like Brian Toss. I would be using it for standing rigging and like the idea that for the 5mm line the breaking strength is twice the 3/16 stainless thats currently on there. On top of that its very easy to DIY with just a few tools. I guess it will depend whats left in the budget.

-Richard

[SV Tatyana]

Also I really like the idea for a baby stay for a storm jib and added rig strength I think I will look into that since I will be re-coring some of the foredeck as well.

[Russell]

I was not going to comment on the windlass on the 25D being unnessisary, figuring it entirely possible you are a one armed 80 year old man with sailing dreams and didn't want to jump to conclusions and sound preachy. But a 23 year old? Yeah, skip the windlass, put that cash elsewhere. 150' of 5/16 is a LOT of weight in the boat of a 25D, I use 5/16 on my CD36! Seriously consider stepping down to 1/4". 150' is a nice length, can you modify the boat to get that chain further down and aft? If not, consider 100' instead. 100' will cover you in 95% of Caribbean anchorage. Consider having 100' of primary chain rigged and ready, and another 75' in the bilge or elsewhere ready to shackle onto it for the odd deep anchorage. The point being keeping all that permanent weight out of the bow of such a short boat. I am surprised you can even fit 150' of 5/16 in the chain locker already.

I won't be so quick to steer you away from the synthetic standing rigging, at this point its proven. No hidden crevice corrosion, chafe from sails and running rigging is easy to see with the plain eye and in the field repairs are far easier to do. Sure, part of me feels a bit iffy about line holding up the rig rather then wire, but the truth is in the numbers and the results. And I am with you on trusting Brian Toss on just about anything rigging.

I am definitely all about the external chainplates, especially if you have existing issues. Though I would ask yourself this: How long do you plan to keep the boat? If its a few years of cruising before moving onto other things (or bigger boats), repairing the existing backing plates may be cheaper and give plenty of peace of mind for the time you need. Do you plan to cruise for years and years on a 25D? If you are looking for a one or two year cruise before selling and moving onto other things, then repair whats there and save the time, money and sweat for other things.

A way to set a small jib, such as a baby stay I also agree with, can get pretty windy in the Caribbean, especially during the christmas trades. Though I like a side by side forestay arrangement, like you see on Shannons. This has a lot of advantages, you don't have the slot issue for tacking the jib, no major reinforcement to do in an odd section of deck that may be difficult due to interior arrangements, doubles as a backup forestay should the forestay fail. Though this is all assuming you will have a furler on the forestay, if you don't have a furler and its hank on, then the baby stay is unnessisary.

For the cruise you are planning, I know you didn't mention it, but what kind of self steering do you have? I know you didn't ask about it, but a good self steering system (and I mean wind vane, not a tiller pilot) is essential to your plans and far more valuable then a windlass!

[tjr818]

...Though I like a side by side forestay arrangement, like you see on Shannons. This has a lot of advantages, you don't have the slot issue for tacking the jib, no major reinforcement to do in an odd section of deck that may be difficult due to interior arrangements, doubles as a backup forestay should the forestay fail. Though this is all assuming you will have a furler on the forestay, if you don't have a furler and its hank on, then the baby stay is unnessisary.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but Russell, tell me more about this "side by side forestay" that sounds very comforting to me. We do have a fuler on the forestay of our 27, but I can only inspect it at each end and that when the mast is down during our haulout.

[Russell]

...Though I like a side by side forestay arrangement, like you see on Shannons. This has a lot of advantages, you don't have the slot issue for tacking the jib, no major reinforcement to do in an odd section of deck that may be difficult due to interior arrangements, doubles as a backup forestay should the forestay fail. Though this is all assuming you will have a furler on the forestay, if you don't have a furler and its hank on, then the baby stay is unnessisary.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but Russell, tell me more about this "side by side forestay" that sounds very comforting to me. We do have a fuler on the forestay of our 27, but I can only inspect it at each end and that when the mast is down during our haulout.

Think of basically two forestays, side by side, both a bit offset from center. One with a furler on it, the other bare. Its not really intended to be a redundancy, but ends up being such by design, its main purpose is to be able to hank on extra jibs when you have a furler, such as a drifter or a storm jib or a second one for wing on wing downwind. You could also do it fore and aft, a bit like a solent rig, but side by side solves and slot issue when tacking. You would have to modify the bow chainplate, but if I recall on the 25D its a big beefy bronze plate. If I had a sloop rather then a cutter, and was going offshore, I would seriously consider this setup myself, though the cutter offers enough headsail options to not really need such a setup (even though shannon does do it on cutters, essentially giving you 3 headsail options).

[Bill Goldsmith]

Though replacing it with solid teak is an option too (which is what I did on my 36), but not cheap.

Russell--would love to see pictures and a description of the solid teak floor project.

Thanks,

[SV Tatyana]

Russel thanks for the thoughts, I also was really surprised that James Baldwin was suggesting a windlass on a triton 28, just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something there but I have no concerns pulling up anchor by hand... the chain is going to be run through the anchor locker down to the hanging locker below in an effort to keep the weight low...I already have 5/16" chain that I got from another friend or else I would go smaller but I'll trim it to just 100'. As far as the chainplates I'm still up in the air I'll see how the budget looks I guess but money may be better elsewhere. For self steering I'm trying to rig up a solid sheet to tiller setup but if I can pull the cash together I really like the Cap Horn wind vanes. I do have a furler on now and the bow does have a big bronze plate that I can take another stay to I like that idea compared to an inner stay for tacking simplicity.


Thanks,
Richard

[Steve Laume]

I seem to recall reading about the double head stay rigs having problems with jib luff tension. With two luff grooves in the roller furling foil, you can still run double head sails. It seems like the double head stays were a solution before roller furlers became so popular.

I know I have seen a couple of different ways to set them up in some of the books I have but can't remember which one's at this time, Steve.

[fenixrises]

Hi Richard,

If you are at all handy and would rather not fork out $1,000~$6,000 for a used\new commercial wind vane go here and contact Walt Murray He will send you detailed drawings and design info for a DIY wind vane that can be made for a few hundred dollars and that's if you go overboard on materials. He provides the info for free.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... -ne78v4yqI

I bought a used original Nick Franklin Aries gear in Langkawi, Malaysia for about $175. A rare find. But I got there on a self built system. I have now had three different cruising boats and built my own self steering for each. All told that represents something like 50,000+ miles and less than $1,000 for all three.

Another advantage of a windvane system is that you can use a simple tiller pilot to turn the vane blade mechanism. This requires very little electrical power and only a small A\P like a Simrad TP 10. For some cruising both are really necessary. Because you need an AP under power and it is sometimes more important to stay on a given compass course than on a course determined by the apparent wind.

Go for it,
Fred