Factory bedding and sealing

[John R.]

I haven't been on the board for a very long time but an issue has come up that prompted me to make this post.

I am involved in a refit of a '83 30 cutter. I wanted to make everyone aware of a repeating problem I have been uncovering as I have been refitting many components on the boat. This is a matter that all CD owners should pay very close attention to.

I have discovered from investigating and correcting a couple of leaks that the factory used silicone sealant a great deal as a bedding compound, which is not a good choice. I found it had failed and was about to fail on several components. I also uncovered very poor workmanship in sealant application in the bedding process of components, which has resulted in a lot of work and damages. In addition, it appears the factory also used another sealant which could be Dolphinite or a unusual type of polysulfide or something similar. This other sealant mostly remained intact but for a few areas where it had dried out completely and was brittle. The general workmanship of sealant application was shoddy at best which was shocking to discover and was the cause of damaging leaks.

I might add that most of these issues have been involving deck and cockpit hardware and also companionway and hatch components. It is not unreasonable to suspect other components may have similar latent issues.

Also, be aware that the factory never sealed any exposed coring during hardware installations. So, if something does develop seepage or a larger leak you stand the risk of seriously damaged balsa coring. These boats are getting up there in years now and so this situation becomes all the more important. I have not seen any issues with port light leaks so it is safe to say they were bedded properly.

Deck fill fittings were all poorly bedded. Companionway teak trim was terribly bedded. Steering pedestal was poorly bedded which has caused damage to the iron sub assembly. Sea hood silicone bond failed, coaming silicone bonds failed, Stern cleat bolt heads not bedded. Cam cleats partially failed bedding. Winch support stands with failed bedding.

It is unfortunate, but in most cases there is no outward sign an item is leaking. Although, on some items fasteners are the first indicators something may be compromised. Look for crevice corrosion around fastener heads and also on through bolts that penetrate the deck. Look for signs of any corrosion of fasteners below deck. Inspect any wooden backing blocks for discoloration or distortion. Look at aluminum backing blocks for oxidation near fasteners. Look for any opening of teak joints or seams. Look for any staining patterns on any surfaces. Look for dark patches or discolorations on the underside of the deck near any fasteners where they penetrate the deck.

[hilbert]

At first, I thought that my boat was unique. Few people have responded to my posts that described poorly bedded fittings and rotten balsa core.
While everything you described is spot on, it is easy for people to ignore that which can be expensive, time consuming and especially out of sight.
The latest example that I found was wet core in the cabin sole, under a wooden compression post. I discovered this just by chance, as there was no outward signs of a problem.

[Shinok]

Did you buy your CD30 recently from St. Augustine?

I have had the opposite experience, all of our hardware was bedded REALLY well. We pulled the chainplates a few weeks ago and we still had to use a chisel to get them off the deck, I've had the same experience with all the fittings installed by the factory. That said, the PO of our boat used silicon on everything and I've had to rebed it all. I know it was the PO, because he told me that he used it :/ There is a clear difference for us in parts that were bedded by the PO and the factory.

In addition, all factory installed components were drilled out, chamfered, and bedded, which prevents gelcoat cracking. The components installed by the PO were not chamfered.

It may have been someone at the factory that was just being lazy, in your case. It's unfortunate that one person's laziness can have such damaging long term effects, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on Cape Dory as a whole, especially since other boats don't seem to have that issue (that I'm aware of, anyway). I'm not completely sure how the boat building process works, but in some cases, it takes one oversight or lazy person to produce potentially damaging long term effects on a boat (e.g. when spraying the gelcoat, laying glass, bedding hardware, sealing hull to deck, etc).

In our case, not sealing a bolt that ran through the mast produced a potentially VERY serious issue with our boat. There is an aluminum compression post that runs between both spreaders, it's a bushing that a bolt runs through. No one sealed the stainless bolt against the aluminum and the bushing deteriorated over 35 years to the point that most of the bushing was gone. Given a few more years, it's like the mast would have been bent by compression force of the spreaders. All it would have taken is one person sealing the bolt before putting it in and this would be a non issue, but it didn't happen so we had to build a new bushing.

I've just come to accept that this is par for the course with old boats, there will be poor areas of construction that need to be fixed, even with high quality built boats. I make mistakes on a regular basis in my day job, but fixing them is just a matter of deleting a few lines and replacing them. I can test for results and, if it doesn't work, fix it. For the folks that built our boats, the long term effects of their mistakes wouldn't be visible immediately, so I just accept that things will have to be addressed and fix them, as frustrating as it may be.

[hilbert]

Few production boats builders take the time ($$$) for epoxy plugs or use butyl tape.
The problem is common for production boats and not unique to Cape Dory.
Having said that, I think Cape Dory owners have a blind spot here.

I think we all respect the accomplishments of contributors like Fred, who rebuilt his CD28 and circumnavigated the globe.
However, how many people paid attention to or acknowledged the the deck problem he documented at:
http://www.sbastro.com/FeNIX/Projects/P ... riorFS.htm
.

[Shinok]

Few production boats builders take the time ($$$) for epoxy plugs or use butyl tape.
The problem is common for production boats and not unique to Cape Dory.
Having said that, I think Cape Dory owners have a blind spot here.

I think we all respect the accomplishments of contributors like Fred, who rebuilt his CD28 and circumnavigated the globe.
However, how many people paid attention to or acknowledged the the deck problem he documented at:
http://www.sbastro.com/FeNIX/Projects/P ... riorFS.htm
.

Wow, I've gone over his page a few times and I somehow missed that.

I find that really surprising given our experience, we've had no such issues. I walk around the boat and tap around fittings every few weeks checking to see if anything has rotted, I've yet to find anything. Further, I've drilled out and rebedded most of our hardware, I've never encountered anything that looked like rotten coring except around the tiller base plate and that was a REALLY small area (less than an inch), that was because of a PO though.

I think it's also surprising because I've never heard other owners complain about wet decks. I've heard a few buyers complain about the problem with boats they looked at, but I just figured it was because of prior owners.

[Ron M.]

I have a '77 CD30 and have probably removed, replaced, re-bedded every piece of hardware and teak on the boat.
In my experience Dolfinite was used exclusively to bed the teak to fiberglass.
The only place I found silicone was to bed the hatch lights.
I think a previous owner used silicone around the port light trim rings
Most fittings were bed with something like "Boatlife" or not at all.
I replaced significant areas of core rot......Sealing the core and bedding fittings was not a factory strong suit - and thats well documented.

[Zeida]

Jon R… you can see how immediate some of the CD owners on this board are reacting to your post. With your permission, I will post some of the recent photos of what you are talking about. I think it will really help the members address these issues. I do know the water intake on deck on Bandolera has problems and I will be addressing this soon.

z

[Gary H]

I found it had failed and was about to fail on several components.

This other sealant mostly remained intact but for a few areas where it had dried out completely and was brittle.

After 30+ years! I doubt that any sealant is designed to remain useful for half that time.
I have rebedded all fixtures and all teak on my boat with butyl tape. If I get 15 years of trouble free service, I will not complain. Actually, I am more concerned about my own body parts lasting that long.

[John R.]

At first, I thought that my boat was unique. Few people have responded to my posts that described poorly bedded fittings and rotten balsa core.
While everything you described is spot on, it is easy for people to ignore that which can be expensive, time consuming and especially out of sight.
The latest example that I found was wet core in the cabin sole, under a wooden compression post. I discovered this just by chance, as there was no outward signs of a problem.

Your observations are correct and your boat is not unique. Most people do not notice or don't know how to spot seepage unless it is a significant leak. Sorry to read you had a core issue in the sole. Most likely the result of poor workmanship in applying sealant. Please share more details of what you discovered.

[John R.]

Jon R… you can see how immediate some of the CD owners on this board are reacting to your post. With your permission, I will post some of the recent photos of what you are talking about. I think it will really help the members address these issues. I do know the water intake on deck on Bandolera has problems and I will be addressing this soon.

z

Dear friend if you would like to use a photo to illustrate a point regarding this topic feel free !

[John R.]

I have a '77 CD30 and have probably removed, replaced, re-bedded every piece of hardware and teak on the boat.
In my experience Dolfinite was used exclusively to bed the teak to fiberglass.
The only place I found silicone was to bed the hatch lights.
I think a previous owner used silicone around the port light trim rings
Most fittings were bed with something like "Boatlife" or not at all.
I replaced significant areas of core rot......Sealing the core and bedding fittings was not a factory strong suit - and thats well documented.

Yes, Dolphinite or similar was used but they also used silicone. In addition, silicone was used as a cosmetic and protective coat over their other sealant (Dolphinite possibly) along coaming boards, companionway trim, and in other locations. In addition it was used below as a cosmetic coat over polyester bonding putty around bulkhead joints to liners, along hatch joints and in other locations. CD used a lot of silicone which has poor bonding to wood and some metals, generally it will bond well to gelcoat but the grip weakens and fails along edges.

[John R.]

Did you buy your CD30 recently from St. Augustine?

I have had the opposite experience, all of our hardware was bedded REALLY well. We pulled the chainplates a few weeks ago and we still had to use a chisel to get them off the deck, I've had the same experience with all the fittings installed by the factory. That said, the PO of our boat used silicon on everything and I've had to rebed it all. I know it was the PO, because he told me that he used it :/ There is a clear difference for us in parts that were bedded by the PO and the factory.

In addition, all factory installed components were drilled out, chamfered, and bedded, which prevents gelcoat cracking. The components installed by the PO were not chamfered.

It may have been someone at the factory that was just being lazy, in your case. It's unfortunate that one person's laziness can have such damaging long term effects, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on Cape Dory as a whole, especially since other boats don't seem to have that issue (that I'm aware of, anyway). I'm not completely sure how the boat building process works, but in some cases, it takes one oversight or lazy person to produce potentially damaging long term effects on a boat (e.g. when spraying the gelcoat, laying glass, bedding hardware, sealing hull to deck, etc).

In our case, not sealing a bolt that ran through the mast produced a potentially VERY serious issue with our boat. There is an aluminum compression post that runs between both spreaders, it's a bushing that a bolt runs through. No one sealed the stainless bolt against the aluminum and the bushing deteriorated over 35 years to the point that most of the bushing was gone. Given a few more years, it's like the mast would have been bent by compression force of the spreaders. All it would have taken is one person sealing the bolt before putting it in and this would be a non issue, but it didn't happen so we had to build a new bushing.

I've just come to accept that this is par for the course with old boats, there will be poor areas of construction that need to be fixed, even with high quality built boats. I make mistakes on a regular basis in my day job, but fixing them is just a matter of deleting a few lines and replacing them. I can test for results and, if it doesn't work, fix it. For the folks that built our boats, the long term effects of their mistakes wouldn't be visible immediately, so I just accept that things will have to be addressed and fix them, as frustrating as it may be.

I can assure you your CD is pretty unique. I have never seen a Chamfered fastener hole on a CD and I spent years servicing them. However, we never replaced a deck chainplate so perhaps they did bevel those holes because of the loading. You are extremely lucky that you have found good bedding everywhere on your boat. I would submit that is a rare finding.

[John R.]

I found it had failed and was about to fail on several components.

This other sealant mostly remained intact but for a few areas where it had dried out completely and was brittle.

After 30+ years! I doubt that any sealant is designed to remain useful for half that time.
I have rebedded all fixtures and all teak on my boat with butyl tape. If I get 15 years of trouble free service, I will not complain. Actually, I am more concerned about my own body parts lasting that long.

Polysulfide or polyurethane will easily last 30 years under a fitting or trim if the application was done properly and a quality product was used. I would not suggest the same for silicone and other sealants.

[Sea Hunt Video]

I hesitate to post this message since, given my luck, as soon as it is posted there will be an "issue" on S/V Bali Ha'i.

S/V Bali Ha'i is a 1982 Cape Dory 25D that I acquired caretaker status of in July 2011. I had a marine survey done by a guy who knew Cape Dorys. He "found" a soft spot in the cockpit floor (the seller had told me about it early on - no surprises). The surveyor said he could not find any other soft spots, etc. anywhere. I watched him do the survey and saw his detail work.

This past summer (2013) I had the cockpit floor of S/V Bali Ha'i ripped out and replaced with some expensive "Cusa" (sp?) board. The guy who did the job charges an arm and a leg but is, by all accounts, the best at what he does. The quality of the work he did on the cockpit floor was outstanding. He even gave the floor a slight pitch forward so water would "gravity drain" to the two scuppers.

Anyways, at my request, this guy spent a lot of time "pinging" his little hammer over every single part of S/V Bali Ha'i and could not find even one tiny little soft spot. I asked him specifically to check around the chainplates/standing rigging, etc., where there was some "crazing". The PO had told me during my inspection in June 2011 that S/V Bali Ha'i was a bone dry boat. This has proven accurate in almost all respects.

So far I have been very happy with how "dry" S/V Bali Ha'i is in almost all conditions. With a new Bimini she is now even more dry in the bilge and engine sump areas.

I cannot speak for other Cape Dory 25Ds but I looked at a lot of them. I did not find any differences at all in construction, placement of equipment, parts, etc. I looked at just about every year of mfg. although I think they were only mfg. for 3 or 4 years. Other than owners adding or moving things, every CD 25D was literally a "cookie cutter" image although I did hear about a CD 25D that had a wheel instead of tiller - supposedly installed by Cape Dory Yachts at time of mfg.

So far so good. Now, with this post, I will undoubtedly arrive at S/V Bali Ha'i tomorrow morning to find an "issue". I should NOT post this message.

[Dick Villamil]

I found a similar problem when I restored my '76 Typhoon. Insufficient caulking and unprotected screw/bolt holes led to a lot of core rot - all penetrations are now properly sealed and all hardware is properly bedded. I concur also with the need to re-bed and seal all hardware and their penetrations. Cape Dory was not the only builder with this problem - during the heyday of rapid boat building in the '70s and 80's this was a common problem.