Rudder Removal CD33

[Jeff and Sarah]

I've searched as well as I can but haven't found this, so forgive me if it is buried deep in the cache of posts:

I just hauled the boat to do a bit of maintenance and noticed our rudder is really wet. I opened some very wet blisters today (there was a reasonable amount- nothing shocking) but there is also a steady stream of black water weeping from the seem on top. The rudder had moisture in it when we bought the boat 4 years ago and I think we might now be at the end of its useful life. And as luck would have it, Foss Foam is just down the street from me so replacing the rudder now might be prudent.

My question is this: What does it take to remove the rudder on my 33? How long should I plan on the job taking? I live far enough from the boat that I need to plan jobs well enough to not waste a day tracking down tools I forgot to pack in the car.

Any info you can offer is appreciated.

[John Ring]

Any way you go about it, it's a lot of work. If it's like most CDs, you'll have to grind/cut away glass to expose the bronze shoe glassed into the bottom of the keel. Then drive out the four bronze pins out of the shoe to release it from the keel (with the rudder blocked up). Then you'll need to open the stuffing box (easy), remove the steering quadrant from the shaft (easy), and the little stopper collar just under the pilot bearing (easy), then open & remove the pilot bearing from the cross brace (easy). After digging a hole in the ground for the rudder to drop into, you should be able to carefully slide the rudder down & forward to remove it.

While it's all apart, it makes sense to replace the stuffing box hose, and put some new bushings in the bronze shoe and the bottom of the new rudder. You can make new pins for the shoe from 3/8" bronze welding rod.

This link will give you an idea of what's involved in getting the bronze shoe out: http://home.comcast.net/~ringj/LooseRudder.htm

John
CD36 Tiara

[Zeida]

John… A million thanks for that amazing link of changing the rudder on your CD. My 33 Bandolera II has the same wetness problem as Jeff & Sarah describe, but I doubt I can do anything similar to what you achieved. I have researched a bit on this and as of now, it is beyond my reach. I did have the yard patch up the top of the rudder which had delaminating fiberglass in that area and water had been soaking in; it has helped some, but I also still have blisters that ooze liquid when I haul out. I just try to drill and fill them as much as possible, and back she goes in the water. I am waiting to win the lottery to get a permanent fix on this. Also I have spider cracks at the bottom where the rudder attaches to the shoe, but that's a reality I'm living with. however, your pictures are now in my boat file, in case I can ever have this work done. Marvelous job on your part. I did always love your little Tantalus and now your new Tiara clearly must be adoring her new owner. your love for her is obvious. Clongratulations.

Zeida

[Jeff and Sarah]

Well that looks only slightly miserable. The fiberglass over the shoe is already delaminating so I need to do the reglassing part of job anyway- I might as well knock it all out at once. I guess I won't be back in the water quite as quickly as I was hoping but the project doesn't look insurmountable. What weight fiberglass did you use when you glassed the shoe back in? My rudder doesn't have any of the play yours seems to have had- do you think new bushings are worth it or can I skip that?

Foss needs measurements off my old shaft before they can start so I'll pull my rudder this weekend. They did offer to reuse the old shaft but if I'm dropping this much money I figure I might as well have a completely new unit to last me the next 30 years.

[John Ring]

Thanks All.

I used biaxial glass and West epoxy, came out nice. Keep in mind the stainless pin at the bottom of the rudder may not be connected to the shaft coming out the top of the rudder, despite what the diagram shows. Mine wasn't - it was just a 5" long stainless pin sitting in a bronze cup in the bottom of the rudder. The upper end of the shaft just ends somewhere after the aperture bend. The pin & the upper rudder shaft may be different diameters, and If you're having a new rudder made they will need to know that. And yes, always go for a new shaft, maybe even opt for a continuous shaft with the bottom of the continuous shaft sitting in the shoe. I think this is a better way to go, but the new shaft protruding from the bottom of the rudder may require a different size bushing in the shoe.

Most old fiberglass rudders seem to have some water weeping out somewhere and still work fine for years. Mine has a little weeping out the top, but still sounds very solid under under the mallet. I'll grind a little out around the shaft on the top of the rudder & fill with epoxy after the rudder has dried over the winter. Maybe drilling a few dyring holes into the rudder in the fall would help too. If the bottom of your rudder isn't loose, maybe the shoe can stay in place, and maybe rudder can be repaired in place, saving a lot of work. It all depends on the condition of the rudder really. If your bushings seem good, and the glass is coming off the shoe, perhaps this indicates your bushings were already replaced at some point.

Keep in mind there is one thing we can be sure of; the rudder will fail when you most need it, under the heavy rudder loads generated during bad weather. Whether it be crevice corrosion in the stainless shaft, or delamination of the rudder itself, eventually all fiberglass rudders need to be replaced.

John
CD36 Tiara

[Jeff and Sarah]

Thanks for the response. I agree about rudders failing when needed most- that's kind of the driving factor for replacing it now. I'd rather spend the money and always wonder if it were necessary than not spend the cash and wish I had after some catastrophic event. If the new rudder lasts half as long as the first I'll be happy. The continuous shaft idea is a good one- I'll talk to Foss Foam about that when I call them with the dimensions they need.

Replacing the rudder and fixing the glass issue will let me sleep better this summer when we are riding the Gulf Stream up the coast.

Boats are fun.

[Jeff and Sarah]

Just heard from Foss Foam that the cost of the rudder is the same whether or not they have a mold already in stock. I suppose that could mean they don't charge for the mold making process, but I doubt that is the case. I am going to investigate repairing the rudder in place one more time before I start the process to remove it and place a deposit on a new one. Any input into factors to consider when weighing repair or replace? Obviously the condition of the shaft... How worried should I really be about weeping? Glass work with the rudder in place doesn't seem all to difficult.

[Paul D.]

Jeff,

I was thinking of this challenge and how it relates to our boat. If you are not doing a major offshore trip this season and you pull out for the winter, you could try grinding out a bit and drilling a few drain holes in the rudder right after haul out. Then fill and glass over in the spring and see how it goes.

Femme's rudder had a little higher moisture than the rest of the hull when we purchased her. And I noticed some glasswork from sometime during her then twenty year life. I have ground and glassed a couple minimal areas where I saw some fatigue. At thirty two years sailing now, there is no play in the shoe fitting and no weeping. She is hauled out however October through May here.

Before a full replacement I would consider an option like that, especially if the shoe fitting is sound and you feel the shaft is solid to the rudder. Maybe you could hire a surveyor to do a thorough moisture reading and give you a second opinion.

[Ron M.]

I think Paul offered sound advice. Had similar rudder weeping when we got this boat. got a high reading with moisture meter. I drilled a few 1/4" holes along bottom after haul out.
probably a liter of water drained out initially and it continued to drip for a week or so. I dropped the rudder and brought it into a heated basement. Drilled many more holes and fixed lamps and a small fan directly at both sides for a few weeks until I got a favorable meter reading. I may have injected acetone during that time - cant recall.
Prepped the entire surface, filled holes, applied fiberglass cloth/mas epoxy - 2 layers alternating weave , barrier coat and bottom paint.
That was 2001. I have put the meter on it after successive haul outs with good results.
I did not see evidence of or suspect crevice corrosion of the shaft.......but who knows without actually splitting it open.
Like was suggested, considering this option over a new replacement could be cost effective.

[Zeida]

Jeff… I would try to fix the rudder problem first! My CD33 had a big blisters problem when I bought the boat. I haul out every two to three years. Every time, we tackle the blisters…drill and fill, drill and fill, wash, wash, wash, then apply a good primer before the antifouling. So far it has worked. During the 2004 haul out, we noticed the top of the rudder was weeping more than normal. We drilled away until we cleared all the really bad parts. Then we repaired. By then, the rest of the rudder was quite wet, so we also opened up holes throughout to let it drain for 3 more days before filling them up and painting. To this day, that repair is holding! Of course, I do not go offshore, nor do I go out in bad weather if I can help it. I also baby my rudder. Don't freak out by the pictures, but they will show to what extent of damage the boat had, and it was fixed. The same rudder is still sailing along.

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Hope the photos help.

[Jeff and Sarah]

I've been working on the boat the past couple of days and just saw the repair suggestions now- ultimately that is what I decided to do anyway. The decision is based more on having my second kid due in a couple weeks and I didn't want to get wrapped up with a huge project right now. I spent yesterday and today working on the rudder and today I got the bronze shoe reglassed to fix the delamination issues. Just a bit of sanding and some touch-up painting to do tomorrow then I'll put her back in the water this week.

I do have 1 offshore trip coming up but the rudder should be fine- I had a couple trusted folks take a look at it and we all agreed it isn't too bad off- I'll give it another assessment next winter when I have the boat out for several months anyway (moving back north where that kind of thing is required).

Thanks for all the input. See you on the water.

[MFC]

Jeff -
I seem to recall (from another thread) that the price from Foss Foam was $1600 FOB. Is that correct?
So many projects . . ..
-Matt

[Jeff and Sarah]

I was quoted quite a bit higher than that. That was in February and he mentioned prices were going up in March. I ended up not replacing the rudder because I'd rather do it when I have time to address the project properly. I would have had to rush it this spring.

[MFC]

Any way you go about it, it's a lot of work. If it's like most CDs, you'll have to grind/cut away glass to expose the bronze shoe glassed into the bottom of the keel. Then drive out the four bronze pins out of the shoe to release it from the keel (with the rudder blocked up). Then you'll need to open the stuffing box (easy), remove the steering quadrant from the shaft (easy), and the little stopper collar just under the pilot bearing (easy), then open & remove the pilot bearing from the cross brace (easy). After digging a hole in the ground for the rudder to drop into, you should be able to carefully slide the rudder down & forward to remove it.

While it's all apart, it makes sense to replace the stuffing box hose, and put some new bushings in the bronze shoe and the bottom of the new rudder. You can make new pins for the shoe from 3/8" bronze welding rod.

This link will give you an idea of what's involved in getting the bronze shoe out: http://home.comcast.net/~ringj/LooseRudder.htm

John
CD36 Tiara

Hi John -- Is the info in the link you shared (now dead) available in another form?
Thanks!
Matt

[John Stone]

Hi Matt,
I noticed the link was bad too. Here is a link to our rudder removal and repair on the Far Reach. Maybe it will be some help to you.

John
http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... rsion.html