My wife, 2 friends & I sailed our CD330 'Mystic' to Hawaii and back this summer during the 2000 Pacific Cup. We had a fantastic experience...too much to write about. I thought I'd offer up some bullet points of things that did and did not work. Please feel free to contact me via email if anyone has any specific questions.
Pros-
* The Monitor Windvane. Unbelievable steered straighter and faster than any human on all points of sail (even dead down wind!)
* Sailmail. We've cruised to Mex. twice before and having email makes a huge difference in staying in touch. Works great too.
* Line control traveler. It's a big project but worth the effort.
* Performance Vang. A necessity downwind.
* Outgrabber. When running with a spinnacker this is a must. Relieves the need for a preventer and makes undoing an accidental jibe easy to recover from.
* ATN Sock. Another necessity for spinnacker work.
* Spin Pole on mast track.
* Spinnacker net. Not a single headstay wrap!
* Fast and comfortable for the "tough" ride North on return.
Cons-
*Cape Dorys don't surf!
*VERY rolly downwind
*Only 2 sea berths
*Limited fuel cap
We did did a ton of upgrades to get ready. Anyone considering going offshore ought to pick up a copy of Jim & Sue Corneman's "Pacific Cup Handbook". It's a great outline for readying a boat.
Happy Sailing
Duane Yoslov
'Mystic'
CD330
Sausalito, CA
yoslovd@aol.com
Blue Water Likes/Dislikes?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Ryan Turner
Re: Blue Water Likes/Dislikes?
Thanks Duane. That was a nice post. I'll be taking my CD33 offshore from Beaufort, NC to the Bahamas in November so it was very timely. Two things that I've not got on your list are an outgrabber and spinnaker net. Don't even know what an outgrabber is. Could you elaborate?
Ryan Turner
s/v Zenobia
CD33 hull no. 100
Oriental, NC
rdtsails@msn.com
Ryan Turner
s/v Zenobia
CD33 hull no. 100
Oriental, NC
rdtsails@msn.com
-
Ryan Turner
One more thing
When you say that Cape Dory's don't surf what do you mean? I know about surfing down large waves at sea but have yet to actually do it. Any specific advice on what to do if presented with a large following sea?
rdtsails@msn.com
rdtsails@msn.com
-
Patrick Turner
-
Ken Coit
-
Bill Goldsmith
Re: What is an outgrabber
This reminds me of my days as a Boy Scout patrol leader when we would send the new Tenderfoot scouts searching endlessly for some *shoreline* to hang up the *left-handed-smokeshifter*!!
goldy@bestweb.net
goldy@bestweb.net
-
Duane Yoslov
Re: One more thing
Not much you can do about it. CD's being a heavy displacement boat tend to get pushed around quite a bit. What we found was most comfortable was to keep the main relatively small going between single and double reefed main and roller reefing a 125% jib to keep boat speed b/t 6 & 6.5 kts. Anything above 7 kts and the boat really got difficult to handle. This confused us because we had 3 days of reaching in 20 - 25 kts and the boat consistently maintained 7 - 8 kts and was well under control. If you look at the US Sailing polar diagram for the CD33 though it makes more sense based on the optimum speed for those points of sail.Ryan Turner wrote: When you say that Cape Dory's don't surf what do you mean? I know about surfing down large waves at sea but have yet to actually do it. Any specific advice on what to do if presented with a large following sea?
On the return trip, we ran into gale conditions a 39N 127W with 40 kts gusting to 45. We reduced sail to a triple reefed main and staysail. We were on a reach at the time. With the seas stacked up and breaking we were forced to bear off to the south and run for 18 hrs. The boat maintained about 7 kts and the monitor handled it nicely. I really began to appreciate the displacement and sturdiness at this point.
I guess my point was that it was a little frustrating to have to slow the boat down as we headed down wind as the fin keelers were putting the pedal down...
yoslovd@aol.com
-
Duane
Re: Blue Water Likes/Dislikes?
The outgrabber is typically used when sailing under a symmetrical chute. Basically, you lead the sheet side to a flying block off the end of boom to a middeck twing block on the toe rail and then aft to your winch. The flying block can be adjusted in or out to flatten the spinnacker. The flatter the sail, the more depowered it becomes and the more stable spinnacker.Ryan Turner wrote: Thanks Duane. That was a nice post. I'll be taking my CD33 offshore from Beaufort, NC to the Bahamas in November so it was very timely. Two things that I've not got on your list are an outgrabber and spinnaker net. Don't even know what an outgrabber is. Could you elaborate?
Ryan Turner
s/v Zenobia
CD33 hull no. 100
Oriental, NC
The other big bonus of rigging the sheet this way is that should you inadvertantly jibe, the boom will take the sheet with it, drastically slow the boom down and collapse the spinnacker by flattening the sail completely. If you have a jibe preventer on, the main backwinds and can potentially break the boom. Additionally, with a jibe preventer, you cannot jibe back until the preventer is released...meanwhile the spinnacker is rapidly knotting itself up. With the outgrabber in use, you simply jibe back and let the chute fill again.
The spinnacker net is simple. It is made of tubular webbing material and has a leech and luff with 3 or 4 horizontal pieces. You hoist it on a jib halyard and secure in the forward triangle. If you collapse the spinnacker, the chute will typically get caught in the vortex of the main and begin to wrap around the head stay. This makes it impossible for that to happen.
Sally Lindsey Honey makes a version of the spinnacker net and Stan Honey (Playstation) did a good drawing of the outgrabber in one of the Pacific Cup seminars. You may be able to find links on the Pacific Cup web page...www.pacificcup.org.
yoslovd@aol.com
-
Catherine Monaghan
Re: Blue Water Likes/Dislikes?
Duane,
I've never used a windvane before but our autopilot doesn't steer very well downwind (at least I don't think it does). I find that I can control the boat (limit the rolling) much better than the autopilot. Maybe it's the same for the windvane? I've not sailed in seas higher than 8 feet so I don't know how well I'd do in heavy seas.
The autopilot is merely trying to stay on course and only makes an adjustment when the fluxgate compass tells it that it's off course (not sure how the windvane works/reacts). The helmsman, on the other hand, can learn the wave pattern/rhythm and anticipate when to make an adjustment thus steering a steadier course. Of course this takes practice. Someone new to the helm will take awhile to get the rhythm and will roll the boat all over the place (I know, that used to be me).
You can also reduce the rolling by limiting the distance that the boom extends beyond the rail. The farther out the boom, the more the boat tends to roll.
I'm really interested in your offshore experience to Hawaii. Will you be sharing more of your story soon? I think others would be interested in more details on your upgrades too. Thanks for the post.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
I've never used a windvane before but our autopilot doesn't steer very well downwind (at least I don't think it does). I find that I can control the boat (limit the rolling) much better than the autopilot. Maybe it's the same for the windvane? I've not sailed in seas higher than 8 feet so I don't know how well I'd do in heavy seas.
The autopilot is merely trying to stay on course and only makes an adjustment when the fluxgate compass tells it that it's off course (not sure how the windvane works/reacts). The helmsman, on the other hand, can learn the wave pattern/rhythm and anticipate when to make an adjustment thus steering a steadier course. Of course this takes practice. Someone new to the helm will take awhile to get the rhythm and will roll the boat all over the place (I know, that used to be me).
You can also reduce the rolling by limiting the distance that the boom extends beyond the rail. The farther out the boom, the more the boat tends to roll.
I'm really interested in your offshore experience to Hawaii. Will you be sharing more of your story soon? I think others would be interested in more details on your upgrades too. Thanks for the post.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
Duane wrote: My wife, 2 friends & I sailed our CD330 'Mystic' to Hawaii and back this summer during the 2000 Pacific Cup. We had a fantastic experience...too much to write about. I thought I'd offer up some bullet points of things that did and did not work. Please feel free to contact me via email if anyone has any specific questions.
Pros-
* The Monitor Windvane. Unbelievable steered straighter and faster than any human on all points of sail (even dead down wind!)
* Sailmail. We've cruised to Mex. twice before and having email makes a huge difference in staying in touch. Works great too.
* Line control traveler. It's a big project but worth the effort.
* Performance Vang. A necessity downwind.
* Outgrabber. When running with a spinnacker this is a must. Relieves the need for a preventer and makes undoing an accidental jibe easy to recover from.
* ATN Sock. Another necessity for spinnacker work.
* Spin Pole on mast track.
* Spinnacker net. Not a single headstay wrap!
* Fast and comfortable for the "tough" ride North on return.
Cons-
*Cape Dorys don't surf!
*VERY rolly downwind
*Only 2 sea berths
*Limited fuel cap
We did did a ton of upgrades to get ready. Anyone considering going offshore ought to pick up a copy of Jim & Sue Corneman's "Pacific Cup Handbook". It's a great outline for readying a boat.
Happy Sailing
Duane Yoslov
'Mystic'
CD330
Sausalito, CA
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
-
Duane Yoslov
Re: Blue Water Likes/Dislikes?
Catherine -
Your absolutely right about the autopilot and the reaction time. In a big following sea, it really loads up the rudder, quadrant and helm unnecessarily. The other down side to an autopilot is power consumption. Our philosophy on an autopilot was to use it when motoring on the return trip during the calms otherwise use the windvane. This proved to work out beautifully. Another nice option is to buy a cheap tiller pilot and connect it to the winvane so that the windvane will steer under motoring conditions. Friends of ours on a Passport 42 were set up this way and it worked great for them. Saves $ on a high end electric pilot anyway.
As far as controlling the roll you're better off reducing sail and leaving the boom out than sheeting in. With the boom sheeted in, the boat will tend to want to round up more and loading up the steering system. More sail out in front of the boat is the best.
What we found was most comfortable dead down wind was to keep the main relatively small going between single and double reefed main and roller reefing a 125% jib to keep boat speed b/t 6 & 6.5 kts. Anything above 7 kts and the boat really got difficult to handle. This confused us because we had 3 days of reaching in 20 - 25 kts and the boat consistently maintained 7 - 8 kts and was well under control. If you look at the US Sailing polar diagram for the CD33 though it makes more sense based on the optimum speed for those points of sail.
On the return trip, we ran into gale conditions a 39N 127W with 40 kts gusting to 45. We reduced sail to a triple reefed main and staysail. We were on a reach at the time. With the seas stacked up and breaking we were forced to bear off to the south and run for 18 hrs. The boat maintained about 7 kts and the monitor handled it nicely. I really began to appreciate the displacement and sturdiness at this point.
I guess my point about being rolly and not surfing was that it was a little frustrating to have to slow the boat down as we headed down wind as the fin keelers were putting the pedal down and getting up on top of the waves...
With regard to human vs. windvane...the windvane still wins downwind. We had 4 very experienced drivers on board. (Curtis skippers a J24 that we race nationally, Jim who's skippered his own boat to Mexico and my wife and I who have 2 trips to Mexico as well as racing experience). It's all fine and good driving during daylight hours but when the horizon disappears and the sky is obscured by trade wind squalls, even the best drivers are left 'hanging on'. The driver is forced to steer by compass heading and wind indicator alone. As you noted about the autopilot not steering well by fluxgate...the same holds true for humans. The worst part is that in the total blackness (except for the glow of the instruments) I found that if I drove by instruments too long, I would suffer from vertigo. Ultimately I resorted to simply driving by the feel of the wind on my ears with an occassional reassurance from the compass. The windvane inherently drives by that 'rhythm' you describe getting into because it works off the apparent wind on the boat so as the apparent wind on the boat changes in the swells, the boat reacts instantly even though the course may not have changed yet. It is absolutely critical that the helm be balanced before setting the windvane though. That also means that as the wind velocity changes through the squalls that the 'on watch' constantly modulate sail to keep the helm balanced.
As far as sharing more...keep the questions coming. We did not keep a journal aside from our log book but we still have ALL of our email posts to family and friend along the way. We've even got 1 1/2 hrs of video from the trip over if you could stand the thought of that!
Let me know if you would like me to post some of the emails from the trip?
yoslovd@aol.com
Your absolutely right about the autopilot and the reaction time. In a big following sea, it really loads up the rudder, quadrant and helm unnecessarily. The other down side to an autopilot is power consumption. Our philosophy on an autopilot was to use it when motoring on the return trip during the calms otherwise use the windvane. This proved to work out beautifully. Another nice option is to buy a cheap tiller pilot and connect it to the winvane so that the windvane will steer under motoring conditions. Friends of ours on a Passport 42 were set up this way and it worked great for them. Saves $ on a high end electric pilot anyway.
As far as controlling the roll you're better off reducing sail and leaving the boom out than sheeting in. With the boom sheeted in, the boat will tend to want to round up more and loading up the steering system. More sail out in front of the boat is the best.
What we found was most comfortable dead down wind was to keep the main relatively small going between single and double reefed main and roller reefing a 125% jib to keep boat speed b/t 6 & 6.5 kts. Anything above 7 kts and the boat really got difficult to handle. This confused us because we had 3 days of reaching in 20 - 25 kts and the boat consistently maintained 7 - 8 kts and was well under control. If you look at the US Sailing polar diagram for the CD33 though it makes more sense based on the optimum speed for those points of sail.
On the return trip, we ran into gale conditions a 39N 127W with 40 kts gusting to 45. We reduced sail to a triple reefed main and staysail. We were on a reach at the time. With the seas stacked up and breaking we were forced to bear off to the south and run for 18 hrs. The boat maintained about 7 kts and the monitor handled it nicely. I really began to appreciate the displacement and sturdiness at this point.
I guess my point about being rolly and not surfing was that it was a little frustrating to have to slow the boat down as we headed down wind as the fin keelers were putting the pedal down and getting up on top of the waves...
With regard to human vs. windvane...the windvane still wins downwind. We had 4 very experienced drivers on board. (Curtis skippers a J24 that we race nationally, Jim who's skippered his own boat to Mexico and my wife and I who have 2 trips to Mexico as well as racing experience). It's all fine and good driving during daylight hours but when the horizon disappears and the sky is obscured by trade wind squalls, even the best drivers are left 'hanging on'. The driver is forced to steer by compass heading and wind indicator alone. As you noted about the autopilot not steering well by fluxgate...the same holds true for humans. The worst part is that in the total blackness (except for the glow of the instruments) I found that if I drove by instruments too long, I would suffer from vertigo. Ultimately I resorted to simply driving by the feel of the wind on my ears with an occassional reassurance from the compass. The windvane inherently drives by that 'rhythm' you describe getting into because it works off the apparent wind on the boat so as the apparent wind on the boat changes in the swells, the boat reacts instantly even though the course may not have changed yet. It is absolutely critical that the helm be balanced before setting the windvane though. That also means that as the wind velocity changes through the squalls that the 'on watch' constantly modulate sail to keep the helm balanced.
As far as sharing more...keep the questions coming. We did not keep a journal aside from our log book but we still have ALL of our email posts to family and friend along the way. We've even got 1 1/2 hrs of video from the trip over if you could stand the thought of that!
Let me know if you would like me to post some of the emails from the trip?
yoslovd@aol.com