CD25 weather helm ALWAYS

[joelcunningham]

I believe the CD25 just has a lot of weather helm designed into it. I have tried everything I know to reduce it: main sheet to leward, main as flat as I can get it, genoa block far aft on the track and genoa cranked in. Nothing seems to make much difference. When a big puff comes along, I need to pull the tiller right into my chest in order to hold corse. I'm wondering if other CD25 owners have the same experience.

[Jerry Hammernik]

I sailed a CD25 for 20 years. I had the same problem. I made a large difference by having the headstay shortened. Sight up the mast from abeam of the boat. If it is raked aft you may want to adjust it to be more upright. I had enough adjustment in the backstay to shorten the headstay by several inches. Just taking up all the adjustment in the head stay was not enough, I had to actually have the headstay shortened.

Measure twice, cut once.

[Russell]

How big is your genoa? A big 150% it will always be pretty hard to impossible to trim out the weather helm, especially in bigger winds where a smaller foresail would be better suited.

[Ken Cave]

When I purchased my 28 CD it came with a 135 genoa. I almost sold the boat as it just wouldn't respond.

Fortunately I called a local rep from Ullman Sails, and he convinced me that a 154 genoa would make all the
difference in the world. I have now used this sail for almost 8 years, and it is so good I hardly put up
the main!

Would this be something that would work on a 25?

Ken Cave

[steveg]

What happens when you reef the main? It seems to me that if you reefed the main the helm was reduced and the rig more balanced. On the 25 if I recall correctly a reef in the main at about 12 mph wind speed made all of the difference. Do you have much weather helm when the wind is 5 to 10 mph with a large genoa (135) and a full main? How old are the sails and in what condition?

I have been sailing the 25D lately. The prior owner complained about bad weather helm, and advised he normally used the working jib (110) and full main, and almost never used the large genoa (155). I have found the rig is balanced with the large genoa and full main in light, less than 10 mph wind. When the wind gets much over 10 a reef in the main restores the balance. It seems like the 25 reacted about the same. Sails in good condition and well trimmed help also.

[rorik]

If you have excessive weather helm, it can be from several things:
Boat not sitting on her lines
Mast base set too far aft
Mast raked too far aft
Main with too big a roach
Main leech too tight
Main with chord too far aft
Foresail too small
Sails not trimmed properly

Mathilda had weather helm with a brand new main and jib. The new main had a slightly larger roach than the original and the jib is a 97%, which is a touch smaller than the original club footed jib. That moved the center of effort further aft and up.
But the biggest culprit was that I swapped a 400 pound Volvo MD7A for a 200 pound Kubota and then, swapped out the 30 feet of 1/4" chain and 150 feet of 1/2" nylon rode (~50 lbs) in the bow for 150 feet of 5/16" chain and 400 feet of nylon ( ~ 220 lbs). That moved the center of lateral resistance forward.
The center of lateral resistance is the pivot point of the hull.
Pivot point moves forward, effort moves aft - no balance.

[jbenagh]

I had a 130 genoa on my CD25. In the 12-17kt range I would let the traveler to leeward and let out the main, allowing the forward third to "pillow" or scandalize to get less weather helm. Basically, take drive out of the main until you are comfortable with the helm; I found that was fastest. I never found that adding vang to weather really helped depower. The main had a Cunningham grommet but I never rigged the lines. Above 15kt the first reef sailed way faster and more comfortable. With the reef you can still remove drive from the main the same ways. I could generally sail with a fingertip on the tiller with these adjustments or at least light pressure, except in gusts.
Oh, all of this applied after I got new sails. With the older sails, only reefing worked, along with switching to a working jib above 15kts.
Jeff

[tartansailor]

I have new sails and properly tuned rigging. Weather helm on my boat is
easily managed by adjusting twist for the conditions. 1 reef and I can induce a lee helm.
Dick

[joelcunningham]

Thank you all for the comments and insights. I see that many agree that it is an issue with the 25. I guess I just shouldn't expect to have a light tiller in the 12-18 range with a full main and genny I guess I'll try a reef and see how it goes. Thanks again.

[pete faga]

Joel
Try just using your headsail in the 7 to 10 range if your sail is in good shape and you are not trying to make a destination.I find I can go up on the cabin and sit if there isn't to much of a sea.
A gentlemans sail!
Pete

[Ben Coombs]

I have old baggy sails... This helps our weather helm.

Fill your water tank under the vee. Otherwise you are likely riding a "wheelie" all the time. Two adults, an outboard in the well, plus all the stuff in the cockpit lockers, has us showing lots of bottom paint. But fill the water tank, and the boat levels out moving your ce forward, reducing weather helm.

My 2¢.

[Bob Ohler]

Joel,

I would start by simply taking a reef! Every CD sailor knows our boats like to reefed early. "The best time to take a reef, is when you first think you might need one."

I like the trick of tying-in a reef at the dock, then lowering the sail and simply using a couple of sail ties. In this manner, the sail is reefed as soon as you put it up.

"Better to take a reef and be prepared, than needing one and being scared."

[Jack Carr]

I have always had a weather helm problem with my CD 22D. Part of the problem is the main sail's size and the diesel weight for the size of the boat. I got a new set of sails with reef points on the main as I don't like the rolling reefer. If the wind is over 15 kts, I reef and slide the trailer to leeward. It takes a lot of strain off the tiller and makes for an easier sail.

[Gary H]

Jack,

I am interested in what headsail you are using when you experience weather helm. I also have a 22D and experience some weather helm with a full sail and a 155 genny at 15 mph winds. I doubt that the diesel plays a significant role as it weighs 180lb and is only about 6 ft aft of the mast. I would think that an outboard hanging off the stern would cause as much or more lowering of the stern.

Gary

[Jack Carr]

I typically use a 135 genny.