Assume, purely for the sake of argument, a twenty year-old CD 36, standard cutter rig, with original standing rigging, spar, and booms. The owners believe that some time in the next year or two (or three), they might renew the standing rigging, mostly because it will be into its third decade. The sails have since been replaced, but are also in various states of wear. The main is starting to bag. The yankee is a recut genoa. The staysail is original. Besides being an excellent opportunity to spend more damn money, this might be viewed as an opportunity to improve things.
What changes would you make? Let your imagination run wild ..
CALL for IDEAS: CD 36 rigging and sails
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Larry DeMers
Re: CALL for IDEAS: CD 36 rigging and sails
This is a tough assignment without additional caveats and conditions assigned to the proposition. ARe they selling the boat or keeping it? What is their sailing area, expertise and use? Do they anticipate coastal cruising for the foreseeable future or do they think that they will hit blue water within their period of ownership?
The sails are an automatic thing really. No matter what their goals are, I would argue that the sails need to be replaced with new sails befitting their use and area and expertise level.
Other areas of improvement are in ground tackle/chain/rode/windless, better autopilot, refrigeration (with it's attendant electrical system buttressing, larger house banks <two separate house banks..one for lights radio etc., and one for reefer>, high output alternator and smart reg., solar charging if appropriate etc).
I would caution that the owner needs to feel the need and desire to do this first, as the work and trials that one goes through, especially the electronics issues, make the task at least 4x as hard as it would seem.
If going on extended cruising for instance, the list becomes endless, but a drogue chute, storm staysail and beefed up rigging would be my first item to improve.
Shoot us some more info, and we'll take a good stab at the exercise.
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
The sails are an automatic thing really. No matter what their goals are, I would argue that the sails need to be replaced with new sails befitting their use and area and expertise level.
Other areas of improvement are in ground tackle/chain/rode/windless, better autopilot, refrigeration (with it's attendant electrical system buttressing, larger house banks <two separate house banks..one for lights radio etc., and one for reefer>, high output alternator and smart reg., solar charging if appropriate etc).
I would caution that the owner needs to feel the need and desire to do this first, as the work and trials that one goes through, especially the electronics issues, make the task at least 4x as hard as it would seem.
If going on extended cruising for instance, the list becomes endless, but a drogue chute, storm staysail and beefed up rigging would be my first item to improve.
Shoot us some more info, and we'll take a good stab at the exercise.
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Russell wrote: Assume, purely for the sake of argument, a twenty year-old CD 36, standard cutter rig, with original standing rigging, spar, and booms. The owners believe that some time in the next year or two (or three), they might renew the standing rigging, mostly because it will be into its third decade. The sails have since been replaced, but are also in various states of wear. The main is starting to bag. The yankee is a recut genoa. The staysail is original. Besides being an excellent opportunity to spend more damn money, this might be viewed as an opportunity to improve things.
What changes would you make? Let your imagination run wild ..
demers@sgi.com
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Russell
No, no .. I'm just asking about the sails and rigging
Sure, there's a lot of things that can be upgraded on a boat. It's a neverending story, right? But the issues are partitionable. Perhaps I phrased it badly; I meant to ask just about the sails and rigging. And while I said to think wild, putting in a new spar is a little bit out of bounds. Sails and rigging. Those are the variables. Assume coastal cruising, one owner who likes to tweak and make speed, the other who likes sailing to be as easy as possible. That makes it interesting, no?
Let me sketch out some of the big alternatives. (1) Renew everything in the standard fashion, keeping the boat a double headsail sloop. (2a) Ditch inner forestay and intermediates, and convert it to a masthead sloop. (2b) Maybe in this last case, add a removable forestay from the hounds for a stormjib. (3) Change the forestay to a removable solent stay (from the masthead), for upwind work with a blade and main, a combination that would balance better than existing staysail and main. (4) .. well, what else? I'm sure there are other possibilities. And then within these choices, there are lots of small issues regarding running rigging, battens, sail covers, etc. But a sailplan is one system, and all the parts need to fit a cohesive vision.
Now think wildly. But only on how to run the wire, rope, and canvass. Other issues for other days.
Let me sketch out some of the big alternatives. (1) Renew everything in the standard fashion, keeping the boat a double headsail sloop. (2a) Ditch inner forestay and intermediates, and convert it to a masthead sloop. (2b) Maybe in this last case, add a removable forestay from the hounds for a stormjib. (3) Change the forestay to a removable solent stay (from the masthead), for upwind work with a blade and main, a combination that would balance better than existing staysail and main. (4) .. well, what else? I'm sure there are other possibilities. And then within these choices, there are lots of small issues regarding running rigging, battens, sail covers, etc. But a sailplan is one system, and all the parts need to fit a cohesive vision.
Now think wildly. But only on how to run the wire, rope, and canvass. Other issues for other days.
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Richard Formica
Re: CALL for IDEAS: CD 36 rigging and sails
Russell,
Last year I purchased a new mast because of electrolysis damage to its base. I made two changes which I have been very happy with.
1. I made the inner forestay a break away. This way during the summer on Long Island Sound I can use a 150 genoa without trouble but retain the benefits of a cutter. I think this cost an extra $450
2. I had the whisker pole converted to line control and had it mounted to the mast on a track. This make it very easy to do fore deck work. I'm 5'7" and 140# and have no trouble at all.
rich
CD36 Inerarity
Last year I purchased a new mast because of electrolysis damage to its base. I made two changes which I have been very happy with.
1. I made the inner forestay a break away. This way during the summer on Long Island Sound I can use a 150 genoa without trouble but retain the benefits of a cutter. I think this cost an extra $450
2. I had the whisker pole converted to line control and had it mounted to the mast on a track. This make it very easy to do fore deck work. I'm 5'7" and 140# and have no trouble at all.
rich
CD36 Inerarity
Russell wrote: Assume, purely for the sake of argument, a twenty year-old CD 36, standard cutter rig, with original standing rigging, spar, and booms. The owners believe that some time in the next year or two (or three), they might renew the standing rigging, mostly because it will be into its third decade. The sails have since been replaced, but are also in various states of wear. The main is starting to bag. The yankee is a recut genoa. The staysail is original. Besides being an excellent opportunity to spend more damn money, this might be viewed as an opportunity to improve things.
What changes would you make? Let your imagination run wild ..
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Russell
Richard, thanks. And a question or two ..
Where do you store your whisker pole? And to jibe, I assume you first go wing-and-wing, and then .. well, what are the steps with your arrangement? Is the pole flipped, or is one end always the mast end? We currently lack a whisker pole, which limits how deeply we run.
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Richard Formica
Re: Richard, thanks. And a question or two ..
Hi Russel,
First let me say I'm not an expert and have spent the summer experimenting.
Where do you store your whisker pole?
The set up is as follows: Up the forward aspect of the mast is a t-track. A slide car with O ring is on the track and one end of the whisker pole remains clipped on at all times. At the base of the track is a rubber U that holds the pole snuggly. In the stored position the slide car end of the pole, with slide car attached, is topsides on the mast and the free end of the pole is held by the rubber U at the base of the mast. There is a pulley system to help move the slide car up and down and a cam cleat so th slide car can be stopped at any height. This allows you to fix the height of the whisker pole on the mast very easily and make adjustment under sail. The rubber U does a pretty good job securing the free end of the whisker pole. I have noiticed it popped off once in some chop. The pole did not come crashing down because I alway cleat the slide car pulley off. A bungy cord around the mast and pole eliminated the trouble.
And to jibe, I assume you first go wing-and-wing, and then .. well, what are the steps with your arrangement?
I have yet to try and jib the jib on purpose. This is where the break away inner forestay is nice because the pole can get by the outer forstay.
Here is my system so far. I set from a broad reach. I walk the pole down and secure the slide car about three feet from the deck. My pole on rest on the stern most part of the bow pulpit or on the bowsprit. Depends on my mood. Say my on a starboard reach. I grab the port side jib sheet and clip it to the hisker pole. I have a loop on the whisker pole to which I clip on my spinaker halyard and use it to help hold the pole up. Now my wife turns down wind. I trim the port jib sheet and around comes the sail and we are wing and wing. I run back forward and make fine adjustments. eg. move the pole up the mast. raise the spinaker halyard a little so the pole is horizontal. and because it is a line control whisker pole I can easily and safely extend the pole to the desired length.
With just my wife and I and all running back and forth we get completely trimmed in under five minutes. A third person would cut this dramatically.
Is the pole flipped, or is one end always the mast end?
As you have now surmised one end is always fixed to the mast. My one accidental jib of the job occurred and as the pole swung around it stopped by hitting the forestay. This occurred because at five feet off the deck the pole is too long to get by. Howwever, because of the track and slide car I just ran forward, push the pole up the mast a few feet and the pole slipped right by. This become a bigger problem when sailing her as a cutter because of the inner stay. So far I just plan ahead and set up on the desired side of the stay.
We currently lack a whisker pole, which limits how deeply we run.
Things to improve.
By grabbing the sheet and not the clue of the sail the whisker pole always come back to the forward shroud. And rubs.-Installed shroud rollers to prevent damage to the shrouds. I seems to me like get the clue of the sail would be better but I can't figure this out at least not in any speedy fashion. Anyone more experienced have a suggestion? Maybe it doesn't matter.
All and all the whole set up, including the break away stay was mayb $1200.00. I already had a standard whisker pole which my rigger converted for me. The improvement down wind it more than worth it. I Also spend some money to get a good jib peventer/boom vang.
Good luck
rich
First let me say I'm not an expert and have spent the summer experimenting.
Where do you store your whisker pole?
The set up is as follows: Up the forward aspect of the mast is a t-track. A slide car with O ring is on the track and one end of the whisker pole remains clipped on at all times. At the base of the track is a rubber U that holds the pole snuggly. In the stored position the slide car end of the pole, with slide car attached, is topsides on the mast and the free end of the pole is held by the rubber U at the base of the mast. There is a pulley system to help move the slide car up and down and a cam cleat so th slide car can be stopped at any height. This allows you to fix the height of the whisker pole on the mast very easily and make adjustment under sail. The rubber U does a pretty good job securing the free end of the whisker pole. I have noiticed it popped off once in some chop. The pole did not come crashing down because I alway cleat the slide car pulley off. A bungy cord around the mast and pole eliminated the trouble.
And to jibe, I assume you first go wing-and-wing, and then .. well, what are the steps with your arrangement?
I have yet to try and jib the jib on purpose. This is where the break away inner forestay is nice because the pole can get by the outer forstay.
Here is my system so far. I set from a broad reach. I walk the pole down and secure the slide car about three feet from the deck. My pole on rest on the stern most part of the bow pulpit or on the bowsprit. Depends on my mood. Say my on a starboard reach. I grab the port side jib sheet and clip it to the hisker pole. I have a loop on the whisker pole to which I clip on my spinaker halyard and use it to help hold the pole up. Now my wife turns down wind. I trim the port jib sheet and around comes the sail and we are wing and wing. I run back forward and make fine adjustments. eg. move the pole up the mast. raise the spinaker halyard a little so the pole is horizontal. and because it is a line control whisker pole I can easily and safely extend the pole to the desired length.
With just my wife and I and all running back and forth we get completely trimmed in under five minutes. A third person would cut this dramatically.
Is the pole flipped, or is one end always the mast end?
As you have now surmised one end is always fixed to the mast. My one accidental jib of the job occurred and as the pole swung around it stopped by hitting the forestay. This occurred because at five feet off the deck the pole is too long to get by. Howwever, because of the track and slide car I just ran forward, push the pole up the mast a few feet and the pole slipped right by. This become a bigger problem when sailing her as a cutter because of the inner stay. So far I just plan ahead and set up on the desired side of the stay.
We currently lack a whisker pole, which limits how deeply we run.
Things to improve.
By grabbing the sheet and not the clue of the sail the whisker pole always come back to the forward shroud. And rubs.-Installed shroud rollers to prevent damage to the shrouds. I seems to me like get the clue of the sail would be better but I can't figure this out at least not in any speedy fashion. Anyone more experienced have a suggestion? Maybe it doesn't matter.
All and all the whole set up, including the break away stay was mayb $1200.00. I already had a standard whisker pole which my rigger converted for me. The improvement down wind it more than worth it. I Also spend some money to get a good jib peventer/boom vang.
Good luck
rich
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Chuck Carmichael
Re: CALL for IDEAS: CD 36 rigging and sails
Hello Russell;
I've sailed my CD 36 since 1982, and over the years I've made the following revisions (bear in mind I really like the standard cutter rig plan): (1) I added Harken roller furling to the outer forestay. This really frees up the bow pulpit when anchoring. Also, when tacking a genoa, especially the mylar variety, which stick to the staysail, I'll furl it in on the tacks and unfurl it in about 45 seconds. This obviates the need to remove the inner forestay. (2) I replaced the pegged mainsail track car with a rope car with the leads running back to stoppers mounted between the main & staysail winches. Works great and provides easy tweaking of the main. (3) I added a preventer/vang which makes down wind sailing a lot safer and improves maisail trim off the wind. (4) As to sails, I'm on my second yankee. second staysail and 3rd main. Main #2 is a "long batten" which has a built in fairly flexible foot. It's still great in light air. My new main is a loose foot full batten. Great shape, but a lot heavier than #2, and I'm considering a lazy-jack system to assist takedowns. When I replaced the staysail 7 years ago I had the foot enlarged and had battens installed to prevent the leach from cupping. I haven't talked to the sail guy yet, but I'm considering going to a long batten staysail when I replace the present one. I have a 145 high clewed genoa, 3.5 oz North soft cloth dacron which works well off the wind and poles out easily. For racing I often use a 135 high clewed mylar genoa. When I got this one, it would not lead properly to the outboard tracks so I added an inboard track. Going to wind the boat is faster with the staysail up when using the yankey or either of the genoas. I also use either a cruising spinnaker which I've had for ages and more recently a maximum phrf asymetrical spinnaker which tacks to the front of the bow sprit. This thing makes the boat go like a locomotive from reach to beam apparent. When we cruise I prefer the staysail + yankee, but I carry the softcloth 145 and a chute for light airs. I really like the cutter rig and would really think twice before converting it to a sloop rig. When the going really gets tough, going down to a reefed main and the staysail is a real benefit, and the tacking problems of a large genoa are totally resolved by simply furling the thing in on the tacks. Hope this rambling helps.
Chuck Carmichael, Galatea, hull #67
crcgalatea@home.net
I've sailed my CD 36 since 1982, and over the years I've made the following revisions (bear in mind I really like the standard cutter rig plan): (1) I added Harken roller furling to the outer forestay. This really frees up the bow pulpit when anchoring. Also, when tacking a genoa, especially the mylar variety, which stick to the staysail, I'll furl it in on the tacks and unfurl it in about 45 seconds. This obviates the need to remove the inner forestay. (2) I replaced the pegged mainsail track car with a rope car with the leads running back to stoppers mounted between the main & staysail winches. Works great and provides easy tweaking of the main. (3) I added a preventer/vang which makes down wind sailing a lot safer and improves maisail trim off the wind. (4) As to sails, I'm on my second yankee. second staysail and 3rd main. Main #2 is a "long batten" which has a built in fairly flexible foot. It's still great in light air. My new main is a loose foot full batten. Great shape, but a lot heavier than #2, and I'm considering a lazy-jack system to assist takedowns. When I replaced the staysail 7 years ago I had the foot enlarged and had battens installed to prevent the leach from cupping. I haven't talked to the sail guy yet, but I'm considering going to a long batten staysail when I replace the present one. I have a 145 high clewed genoa, 3.5 oz North soft cloth dacron which works well off the wind and poles out easily. For racing I often use a 135 high clewed mylar genoa. When I got this one, it would not lead properly to the outboard tracks so I added an inboard track. Going to wind the boat is faster with the staysail up when using the yankey or either of the genoas. I also use either a cruising spinnaker which I've had for ages and more recently a maximum phrf asymetrical spinnaker which tacks to the front of the bow sprit. This thing makes the boat go like a locomotive from reach to beam apparent. When we cruise I prefer the staysail + yankee, but I carry the softcloth 145 and a chute for light airs. I really like the cutter rig and would really think twice before converting it to a sloop rig. When the going really gets tough, going down to a reefed main and the staysail is a real benefit, and the tacking problems of a large genoa are totally resolved by simply furling the thing in on the tacks. Hope this rambling helps.
Chuck Carmichael, Galatea, hull #67
crcgalatea@home.net
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Russell
Chuck, about those headsails ..
Chuck, thank you for your comments. I have some questions, especially about your comment that your 135 needed an inboard track. When we bought the boat, it came with a fairly low clewed 120 genoa. We found this sail hard to trim with the staysail: whenever the staysail was drawing well, it would pull the foot of the genoa inward. We had the genoa recut into a yankee, that is, raised its clew considerably. For trim purposes, it wants to sheet just aft of the gate. Alas, the sheet often interferes with the upper lifeline, a problem we now resolve by opening the windward gate. This is not a good long-term solution. When you say that your 135 did not sheet properly, were you experiencing a similar problem? Where did you put your inner track?
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Chuck Carmichael
Re: Chuck, about those headsails ..
Russell, I think the problem with my high clewed 135 had to do with it being mylar. I could not flatten the leach on any point of the standard outboard track. I don't have this problem with the 145 high clewed soft cloth which leads well to the back gate stantion. I played with the 135 leads going to wind until I found about where it wanted to attach to the deck with a fairly flat leach and foot which happend to be about 3" inboard of the port/stbd cabinetry. There I installed a set of 4' tracks. The sheet leads well over the lifelines. I still get a good flow between the staysail and the genoa. The high clews on both the 135 & the 145 minimize the curling that you may be experiencing with your lower cut 120. My yankee leads well to the front gate stantion. When I do get some lower panel curl (generally in heavier winds hard on), it can usually be eliminated by tweaking the staysail and or genoa a tad. Incidentally, the 4 ' tracks were overkill. The mylar 135 only likes one lead on them. Hope this helps. Chuck Carmichael
crcgalatea@home.net
crcgalatea@home.net