New Sails for S/V Bali Ha'i

[Sea Hunt Video]

In a few weeks I am going to be hauling S/V Bali Ha'i. I have several projects I want to complete, most of which are beyond my limited skill sets.

In addition to these projects, I want to install new sails (main and Genoa only) and a new furler (either Harken or Schaefer).

One of the projects is to move the boom up one (1) foot so that I can install a Bimini and have standing headroom in the cockpit.

I have a few questions about the sails:

1. I read an article 2-3 years ago that discussed items sailors would change about their sailboat if they could. Don Casey said he would reduce the size of his Genoa. I think he said to 120 but I am not sure and I cannot readily find the article.

Right now I think I have a 130 (possibly 135 ) but I am not sure. I am thinking of asking the sailmaker to build a 120 Genoa for a furler. In my mind a 120 would make things more "manageable" for me as a single hander. My sailing is almost all day sails with a few possible 2-3 days in the Keys, etc.

Is a 120 Genoa on a furler on a CD 25D that does not race appropriate

2. What material should I purchase Several sailmakers I have talked with have suggested "woven" Dacron (6.3 oz or 7.38 oz - seems like a big difference in weight) for the main and "woven" Dacron (5.6 oz or 6.68 oz) for the Genoa.

3. I would like the main to have the insignia of Cape Dory, the model number 25D and possibly the hull number. I have seen some photos with the CD insignia but the photos seem to have different insignias. They all look nice - just different. Is there a source where I can go (or where the sailmaker can go) to find the original insignia design for the CD 25D Is putting the hull number on the mainsail appropriate or not necessary

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions, etc.

[Russell]

Reguarding jib size, only you can make that choice, you know your sailing locale, how your boat balances currently, etc.. A slightly bigger or smaller genoa is not going to make the boat more or less managable (especially with furling), but it will change the sailing characteristics of the boat. Most people pick a sail size appropriate for where they sail and the typical winds they sail in. That could be anywhere from a 100 to a 150 and different people will tell you that the boat is perfect with those and anything in between, because it works where they are, dont take the advice of someone simply telling you "a 130 is perfect for a 25D", discuss it with your sail maker, talk to them about how your boat handles with its current sails (assuming your rig is properly tuned). I think most people go overboard on genoa size, but if your typical sailing is in 5 to 10 knots of wind on those hot summer days with little breeze, it can make sense to have the big genny. I opt to keep the jib small and carry a drifter for those light wind days when I really want to sail (but most often I opt for the "iron genny").

You want dacron, you are not racing, no need for laminate sails. As for weight, that will again depend on jib size and the conditions you sail in.

As for the insignia, most sailmakers will already have a pattern on file for your boat, or know how to source one or make one, dont worry about it, just tell them you want it. Why worry if it is "identical to original"? If you care that much, find a photo of it and show it to the sailmaker, they can make it happen, you dont need to provide a pattern. You do not normally put hull # on the sail, typically you put the USCG documentation number.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Russell:

Thank you very much. As always you offer sound, rationale advise. Much appreciated.

[Ken Cave]

Try Sail Warehouse. They have sails ready made for your 25 D, and they are some of the best I have purchased.
They also have furlers and other goodies that will fit your sailboat and make you happy with their prices.

Ken Cave
CD 28
Dragon Tale

[Ron M.]

what Ken said.............often the sailmaker can provide a "package " price if you get a new genny and furler from him

[Joe Myerson]

Hi Robert,
I don't know what the sailing conditions are like down your way, but I usually fly my 130 genny here on Buzzards Bay, where the afternoon winds often pipe up to 20 knots or more. With my Schaefer furler, I just reduce size as the winds increase. When the wind hits around 15 kts., I tuck the first reef in the main.
On sailcloth, I'd agree with Russell. Most sailmakers should have a book of logos on hand.
Good luck, my friend.
--Joe

[rtbates]

Having a roller/REEFING headsail system makes getting a 130 down to a 120 is a matter of pulling in a few feet of furling line. Now, getting a 120 to be a 130 requires swapping sails. Obviously I'm advocating for a 130. It's what I have on Seraph and at times I furl it down to less than 100%. By moving the sheets blocks forward and having a fat foam luff I can still sail to windward with JUST the reefed headsail. Of course by then it's blowing like stink, the rail is dipping and it's where a 25D loves to charge to windward.

I've found that my 25D loves lots of headsail and benefits from it, whereas lots of main, not so much. Little speed improvement while adding weather helm. My new, IF and WHEN, main will be batten free, with of course no roach.

To gain cockpit headroom I simply re-cut the main to raise the leech 8". leaving the tack, ie gooseneck, where it attached to the mast.

Our main has the hull number, but no CD logo.

[John Martin]

When we purchased 'Carina' I had a 135% cut for Her. However, I could never get the boat to perform like I thought it should. Many different friends I race with came on-board to help either steer or trim, the boat never seemed to do what I thought it should.

One day I had an epiphany, Carl Alberg designed the CD-31 head-sail as a 100% Yankee, maybe I should trust his thinking. Since that day I have been sailing Her with the stay-sail and the Yankee. I point higher and sail better than with the 135%. We can out point and sail as fast or faster than most other, non-racing boats with roller reefing head-sails, in our size range.

With a 100% jib, you can handle higher wind before thinking about changing to a smaller head-sail.
With a roller reefed head-sail, you lose some of the ability to point very high, the aerodynamics of the rolled up sail affects the flow of air over the sail.
With larger, roller REEFING, head-sails the material is usually much lighter, and not suited for higher wind, even rolled up.
If the big sail is made out of heavy material, it won't shape properly, it defeats the purpose of a light air sail.
I race 'Carina' occasionally and she sails her numbers, and better, with the 100% Yankee.
Here on LL, we are known for light air. Add a drifter or asymmetrical spinnaker for better light air performance.

JM

[moctrams]

The PO of Gabbiano sailed with a 130% Genoa and a Staysail. I tried that configuration for one season and switched to a Yankee (still in the sail bag) after getting a luff tape and UV shield and never looked back. I point higher with the Yankee/Staysail combination vs. the 130% Genoa. I found out that when I used the Genoa, the Genoa block did not go far enough aft. I rigged a snatch block further aft and I was able to sheet the Genoa in and the boat would point well when close hauled. All other points of sail worked OK with the block on the track. Carl Alberg knew what he was doing when he designed our cutters to fly a Yankee.Staysail.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Ken, Ron Joe, Randy, John, Moctrans and all:

Thanks for the additional information.

I am settled on either a Harken or a Schaefer. From all I have read, not much difference between the two in quality. I will check with the rigger to see which one he can install at a better price.

I may get a 130 Genoa but I am still leaning towards a 120 although Randy makes a very good point that it is not too difficultt to go from a 130 to a 120 on a furler. It is, however, just a little more difficult to go from a 120 to 130 on a furler.

[Russell]

Ken, Ron Joe, Randy, John, Moctrans and all:

Thanks for the additional information.

I am settled on either a Harken or a Schaefer. From all I have read, not much difference between the two in quality. I will check with the rigger to see which one he can install at a better price.

I may get a 130 Genoa but I am still leaning towards a 120 although Randy makes a very good point that it is not too difficultt to go from a 130 to a 120 on a furler. It is, however, just a little more difficult to go from a 120 to 130 on a furler.

Beyond 120 I would certainly consider opting for a foam luff, as you will likely find yourself sailing with it reefed more often. A foam full helps a lot with sail shape on a roller reefed sail. Sail shape is still going to kinda suck on a roller reefed sail reguardless, that is why you dont just get a 150% reguardless of your sailing and just reef as nessisary. The difference between a 130 and 120 does not seem huge, but it can be, if a 120 makes more sense in your sailing, then get that, not the 130, if you will more often have the 130 partially reefed then you are just reducing the life of the sail and most of the time sailing with poor sail shape and poor pointing ability. Buy the sail that makes the most sense for your sailing most of the time, if you look at the weather and it says 15 knots and you opt not to go out, then a bigger sail is for you, if you go out in windier condition a smaller sail is better. But dont buy huge genoa if you are not going to use it. 130 I would say is the maximume size for a single sail on a roller furler, beyond the, if you wanted say a 140 or 150 it would be part of a sail inventory, that you can change to suit the season. If you want a one size fits all sail, and like to sail in conditions where sailing is actually possible, a 120 or even a 110 is a much more sensible sail. Really big genoas are great for racers (who have many other sails on hand for various conditions) and for fair weather sailors. I know you are not a racer, but are you a fair weather sailor? Some folks wont even leave the mooring/slip if wind is above 10 knots, if thats you, get the 130, if not, get a smaller sail.

Its all trade offs, I myself do mostly open water sailing, a more conservative sail setup makes more sense since I more often see more wind. My 100% jib is perfect, the staysail gets set as well on any point of sail with the wind abeam or forward. But if I was someone who daysailed in typical summertime east coast weather, this sail plan would suck. If I took a look at my boat and thought of how I would want to use it if I was a weekend sailor, I would opt for a bigger genoa, but still I dont think I would go past 120 unless I has a suite of sails. Generally if not racing, I say go smaller, not larger.

If its your only jib on hand, get the 120, if your origonal jib is a 100, and still servecable, go ahead and go 130+, but I wouldnt touch a 130 if you dont have a small jib on hand for those windy seasons. Being in FL your sailing is year round, not a few windless months bumpered by 1 windy month on each end. You have a full season of good windy sailing conditions to think about, which is probably more important then the less windy summer season where its too hot to sail anyway. Like I said before, talk to a local sailmaker, talk to local sailors, FL is not like Great Lakes or New England sailing. Buy what makes sense for you, and dont just get a big sail and spend 50%+ of your time with it reefed and poorly set. I am not saying buy a 150 or saying buy a 120 or a 100, I dont know as much about it as the guy sitting in the boat next to you does for your area. Ask them, not us and dont buy a huge sail if you are going to spend more then 30 or 40% of the time with it reefed anyway, if its reefed that often you wanted a smaller sail.

[Paul D.]

Regarding purchasing the furler and sail, I have had a good experience with Sail Wharehouse. They sold me a Harken MkIII very cheaply, and their sails look well made. They seem to have a sound and simple business plan but it relies on the ability of the owner to measure properly. I imagine a sail/furler purchase from them would be a good bet.

I fully recommend the Harken furler. I've used it now ten years, the drum, foil and even the black furling line look almost new with only minimal maintenance. It has worked flawlessly in 0-50 knots of winds with a big old and heavy genoa - our 33 was designed as a masthead sloop. It rolls smoothly and consistently and is convenient, so much so I often sail under genny alone when I am alone with my two young kids. No need to deal with the main and 6 knots is a given on most points of sail. I agree with other posts on this thread that Sir Carl (Come on, we all have effectively knighted him!) knew what he was about, so I would give serious thought to using originally specified sail sizes.

I also would consider going batten less on the main, especially if you normally have weather helm. I have always wondered how much speed we would lose doing that. Carl didn't order it!

Fun project, good luck to you.